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RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 1:58:22 AM   
Olaf


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My favourite moment (outside of Katie/Mo) which hasn't been mentioned much was Paddy Barnes vs Shiming Zou in the boxing - Zou thrashed him 15-0 in Beijing, but the way he fought against pretty much the best flyweight to ever box in the Olympics was inspiring. Drew 15-15 and lost 45-44 on the countback, but an amazing effort all the same.

EDIT John Joe thrashing the world champion in the semi-final was awesome as well, pure class.

< Message edited by Olaf -- 14/8/2012 2:01:02 AM >


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Post #: 1771
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 9:35:05 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

The nation was needy. Gold, gold, gold.



I don't understand this. Are you criticising "the nation" (whatever that means)? Or the media? Or people here on this forum?

And what, exactly, is the criticism? For wanting gold medals in a competition, the aim of which is to get gold medals?

I don't understand the fixation with adequacy, or the idea that somehow wanting to be a winner is a bad thing. It's a competition: people want to win. People want the athletes to win. It is about winning, because, well, I don't know how I can say this in a different way, the Olympics is a competition...

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Post #: 1772
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 9:46:56 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
It was more the tabloids - that idiotic Sun front cover of the medal e.g. But it misjudged the public mood I think, certainly during - the crowds were cheering for anything.

Everyone strives for best, and best kind of should be a gold medal - but I don't think it's that or nothing. For some of the sports getting a game won was considered an achievement - although objctives that low was mainly for those were we only got places because we were home nation, didn't have a history of playing and had to persuade the IOC we could play without embarrassing ourselves. But for some that was the target - just win one game. Give the sport a first rung to build from.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19226042

I thought this was really interesting and it'll help those above aiming for Rio too. I think Beach Volleyball is your best bet - 1 win for women, none for men.


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Post #: 1773
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:07:57 AM   
Gimli The Dwarf


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One of the highlights of the games for me was Hamadou Djibo Issaka. Never stood a chance of gold but if that's all that counts it kind of makes his time there pointless doesn't it?


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Post #: 1774
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:23:36 AM   
homersimpson_esq


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I didn't say it was ALL that counts.

I'm just saying that it's a competition. Going for the best that is possible is kind of the point.

This idea that "competition is bad", that "everyone's equal", that "everyone's a winner", or that "everyone deserves a medal" is idiotic, and belittles the actual achievements of those who are the best.

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Post #: 1775
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:27:38 AM   
elab49


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I didn't mean you did. It was just remembering the tack the press took in the first couple of days was a bit off for me. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 1776
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:29:18 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
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I don't really read papers, so that passed me by. It was more in reply to Gimli's assertion that in my view that chappy's efforts were wasted. I didn't see it, so I don't know the specifics of what he referred to, but what he achieved may be a huge personal achievement, but it doesn't change the fact that others were better. That's the nature of competition...

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Post #: 1777
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:33:40 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

Posts: 10460
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quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I didn't mean you did. It was just remembering the tack the press took in the first couple of days was a bit off for me.

I've never witnessed it. But I've heard tell that NBC will pretty much only cover an event if the US competitor is going to win Gold. Going so far as to cut to another event if they are behind and don't look like pulling through. This is probably slightly exagerated, but I can well believe it is not too far from the case.

I thought the beeb did a great job. Not just rightly celebrating the achievements of those who won, but giving screen time to many events and competitors who were there to do their best.

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Post #: 1778
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:34:26 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
It doesn't change it, no. Sorry if we're talking at odds - I agree with you on competition. I do think it's important to acknowledge both though - a great personal achievement can be praised, along with an appreciation that improvement is needed to be successful in the field and that's the work that needs done. I think all of our apologising athletes were fully on board with you on that. They want to be the best, otherwise they wouldn't train so damn hard.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 1779
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:37:44 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Professor Moriarty
I thought the beeb did a great job. Not just rightly celebrating the achievements of those who won, but giving screen time to many events and competitors who were there to do their best.


I think so too.

If this is going to the political ideologies that have messed up school sport, I think the problem is they messed up the balance between 'winning above all else and crushing the ants below you' and 'winning is irrelevant, here's a pat on the head for doing your best'.

My nephew competes in a range of stuff - football and rugby are tournaments are win or lose, athletics is pretty much the same but other kids do get the kind of medals Homer mentions above as well for general stuff. I think the balance is OK at the moment as they are getting access to a range of properly competitive sports.

< Message edited by elab49 -- 14/8/2012 10:38:02 AM >


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ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 1780
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:42:00 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
the balance between 'winning above all else and crushing the ants below you' and 'winning is irrelevant, here's a pat on the head for doing your best'.


Nail, meet head.



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Post #: 1781
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:43:18 AM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 15/2/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I didn't say it was ALL that counts.

I'm just saying that it's a competition. Going for the best that is possible is kind of the point.

This idea that "competition is bad", that "everyone's equal", that "everyone's a winner", or that "everyone deserves a medal" is idiotic, and belittles the actual achievements of those who are the best.


It is a competition, but it's more than that. It's about being one of the best in your field. They were talking about the fact that the drop out rate in the Olympics marathon is lower than any other marathon. Because an athlete will hit a wall, or get a minor niggle in the London marathon, New York marathon and think "nope, that's it for me." Whereas in the Olympics, they just won't give up, because even if they're not going to come first, they can say "I came 20th in the Olympic marathon." 20th! In the Olympic games! How many people can say that?!?! 'd love to be the 20th best person in the world at something. And this isn't just any old thing, it's the pre-eminent sporting event in the world. And yes, it's about competition, but it's also about personal battles - you may not win the gold, but you might run the fastest time of anyone in your country, or be able to say "I wasn't the best, I could never be the best ... there was this guy called Michael Johnson ... but I was up there, amongst my sporting peers I was considered a great athlete." Should we tell Gemma Gibbons "nah, you shamed your mother because you only got silver" or Tom Daley "you pissed on the grave of your father because you only got bronze." No, of course, not, because they're personal moments, personal battles, where finishing first wasn't all important. Of course they strive for gold, but competition is about so much more than that. Nichola Adams would probably have been quite happy to win nothing, because - after years of political wranglings finally allowed women's boxing - she got the chance to fight on the same stage as her boxing heroes. Should we also tell Wolverhampton Wanderers or the Turkish national football team that they might as well give up now? Should we just not enter a male beach volleyball team for England because they'll never win? Indeed, should we have cancelled most of Michael Phelps' finals because he was so obviously going to win them, and just given him the gold? No, of course not. Personally, I got much more joy during this Olympics seeing the overwhelmed, excited reaction of someone who expected little coming away with a silver or bronze ... or even a personal best ... than those who got their expected gold and accepted it with the same level of excitement as if it were an order from Amazon.

< Message edited by Prophet_of_Doom -- 14/8/2012 10:46:29 AM >

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Post #: 1782
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:46:10 AM   
Gimli The Dwarf


Posts: 77924
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Central Park Zoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I don't really read papers, so that passed me by. It was more in reply to Gimli's assertion that in my view that chappy's efforts were wasted. I didn't see it, so I don't know the specifics of what he referred to, but what he achieved may be a huge personal achievement, but it doesn't change the fact that others were better. That's the nature of competition...



Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I just got the impression you meant that winning gold was all that matters.


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Post #: 1783
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 10:53:35 AM   
jonson


Posts: 9150
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I didn't say it was ALL that counts.

I'm just saying that it's a competition. Going for the best that is possible is kind of the point.

This idea that "competition is bad", that "everyone's equal", that "everyone's a winner", or that "everyone deserves a medal" is idiotic, and belittles the actual achievements of those who are the best.


It is a competition, but it's more than that. It's about being one of the best in your field. They were talking about the fact that the drop out rate in the Olympics marathon is lower than any other marathon. Because an athlete will hit a wall, or get a minor niggle in the London marathon, New York marathon and think "nope, that's it for me." Whereas in the Olympics, they just won't give up, because even if they're not going to come first, they can say "I came 20th in the Olympic marathon." 20th! In the Olympic games! How many people can say that?!?! 'd love to be the 20th best person in the world at something. And this isn't just any old thing, it's the pre-eminent sporting event in the world. And yes, it's about competition, but it's also about personal battles - you may not win the gold, but you might run the fastest time of anyone in your country, or be able to say "I wasn't the best, I could never be the best ... there was this guy called Michael Johnson ... but I was up there, amongst my sporting peers I was considered a great athlete." Should we tell Gemma Gibbons "nah, you shamed your mother because you only got silver" or Tom Daley "you pissed on the grave of your father because you only got bronze." No, of course, not, because they're personal moments, personal battles, where finishing first wasn't all important. Of course they strive for gold, but competition is about so much more than that. Nichola Adams would probably have been quite happy to win nothing, because - after years of political wranglings finally allowed women's boxing - she got the chance to fight on the same stage as her boxing heroes. Should we also tell Wolverhampton Wanderers or the Turkish national football team that they might as well give up now? Should we just not enter a male beach volleyball team for England because they'll never win? Indeed, should we have cancelled most of Michael Phelps' finals because he was so obviously going to win them, and just given him the gold? No, of course not. Personally, I got much more joy during this Olympics seeing the overwhelmed, excited reaction of someone who expected little coming away with a silver or bronze ... or even a personal best ... than those who got their expected gold and accepted it with the same level of excitement as if it were an order from Amazon.


Good post, I agree. I think even when you saw an athlete get injured, the fact they wanted to finish was more important than anything. To finish last in the Olympic marathon is still a huge feat.
I think I read that one of the 100m runners did it in about 12.5 seconds, which to be fair is Eric the Porpoise/Eddie the Eagle territory (come to think of it, is this the first Olympics where a completely useless competitor hasn't been hijacked by the press and humiliated??)

We still shouldn't lose sight of the importance of winning though, even if we are more gracious in defeat and humble in victory.

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Post #: 1784
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:06:50 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I didn't say it was ALL that counts.

I'm just saying that it's a competition. Going for the best that is possible is kind of the point.

This idea that "competition is bad", that "everyone's equal", that "everyone's a winner", or that "everyone deserves a medal" is idiotic, and belittles the actual achievements of those who are the best.


It is a competition, but it's more than that. It's about being one of the best in your field. They were talking about the fact that the drop out rate in the Olympics marathon is lower than any other marathon. Because an athlete will hit a wall, or get a minor niggle in the London marathon, New York marathon and think "nope, that's it for me." Whereas in the Olympics, they just won't give up, because even if they're not going to come first, they can say "I came 20th in the Olympic marathon." 20th! In the Olympic games! How many people can say that?!?! 'd love to be the 20th best person in the world at something. And this isn't just any old thing, it's the pre-eminent sporting event in the world. And yes, it's about competition, but it's also about personal battles - you may not win the gold, but you might run the fastest time of anyone in your country, or be able to say "I wasn't the best, I could never be the best ... there was this guy called Michael Johnson ... but I was up there, amongst my sporting peers I was considered a great athlete." Should we tell Gemma Gibbons "nah, you shamed your mother because you only got silver" or Tom Daley "you pissed on the grave of your father because you only got bronze." No, of course, not, because they're personal moments, personal battles, where finishing first wasn't all important. Of course they strive for gold, but competition is about so much more than that. Nichola Adams would probably have been quite happy to win nothing, because - after years of political wranglings finally allowed women's boxing - she got the chance to fight on the same stage as her boxing heroes. Should we also tell Wolverhampton Wanderers or the Turkish national football team that they might as well give up now? Should we just not enter a male beach volleyball team for England because they'll never win? Indeed, should we have cancelled most of Michael Phelps' finals because he was so obviously going to win them, and just given him the gold? No, of course not. Personally, I got much more joy during this Olympics seeing the overwhelmed, excited reaction of someone who expected little coming away with a silver or bronze ... or even a personal best ... than those who got their expected gold and accepted it with the same level of excitement as if it were an order from Amazon.



You seem to have mistaken "competition" with "we might as well give up because someone is better than you".

I agree that the personal moments were hugely emotive, and I wouldn't deny them that. And I'm not saying that achieving 20th in the marathon isn't a brilliant thing because you've made it to the Olympics, and you did it. That's already hugely high, and the competitive spirit is strong in that they made it that far. And that's to be celebrated. But the emboldened part of your post, I don't think anyone thinks that, or is suggesting that.

I'm saying that everyone is doing their best, and that's amazing. To push yourself to your limits is hugely competitive. But it's where people start to say "well, this person did their best, so they're just as good as this other person who also did their best, but whose best was actually a lot better" where I start to question the logic. It may be that the better person - let's call them Michael Phelps - is consistently better, and the gold medal is almost assured. But does that make it less of an achievement? Oh, they always do really well, it's so boring. Which misses the point they always do really well.

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Post #: 1785
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:34:26 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
THat's the 'did you win or did we lose' argument.

Like my English teacher giving me full marks for a paper then nicely saying it was more his inadequacy as a marker than my quality as a student.

For which he later apologised for being a snarky bastard.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 1786
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:37:55 AM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I didn't say it was ALL that counts.

I'm just saying that it's a competition. Going for the best that is possible is kind of the point.

This idea that "competition is bad", that "everyone's equal", that "everyone's a winner", or that "everyone deserves a medal" is idiotic, and belittles the actual achievements of those who are the best.


It is a competition, but it's more than that. It's about being one of the best in your field. They were talking about the fact that the drop out rate in the Olympics marathon is lower than any other marathon. Because an athlete will hit a wall, or get a minor niggle in the London marathon, New York marathon and think "nope, that's it for me." Whereas in the Olympics, they just won't give up, because even if they're not going to come first, they can say "I came 20th in the Olympic marathon." 20th! In the Olympic games! How many people can say that?!?! 'd love to be the 20th best person in the world at something. And this isn't just any old thing, it's the pre-eminent sporting event in the world. And yes, it's about competition, but it's also about personal battles - you may not win the gold, but you might run the fastest time of anyone in your country, or be able to say "I wasn't the best, I could never be the best ... there was this guy called Michael Johnson ... but I was up there, amongst my sporting peers I was considered a great athlete." Should we tell Gemma Gibbons "nah, you shamed your mother because you only got silver" or Tom Daley "you pissed on the grave of your father because you only got bronze." No, of course, not, because they're personal moments, personal battles, where finishing first wasn't all important. Of course they strive for gold, but competition is about so much more than that. Nichola Adams would probably have been quite happy to win nothing, because - after years of political wranglings finally allowed women's boxing - she got the chance to fight on the same stage as her boxing heroes. Should we also tell Wolverhampton Wanderers or the Turkish national football team that they might as well give up now? Should we just not enter a male beach volleyball team for England because they'll never win? Indeed, should we have cancelled most of Michael Phelps' finals because he was so obviously going to win them, and just given him the gold? No, of course not. Personally, I got much more joy during this Olympics seeing the overwhelmed, excited reaction of someone who expected little coming away with a silver or bronze ... or even a personal best ... than those who got their expected gold and accepted it with the same level of excitement as if it were an order from Amazon.



You seem to have mistaken "competition" with "we might as well give up because someone is better than you".

I agree that the personal moments were hugely emotive, and I wouldn't deny them that. And I'm not saying that achieving 20th in the marathon isn't a brilliant thing because you've made it to the Olympics, and you did it. That's already hugely high, and the competitive spirit is strong in that they made it that far. And that's to be celebrated. But the emboldened part of your post, I don't think anyone thinks that, or is suggesting that.

I'm saying that everyone is doing their best, and that's amazing. To push yourself to your limits is hugely competitive. But it's where people start to say "well, this person did their best, so they're just as good as this other person who also did their best, but whose best was actually a lot better" where I start to question the logic. It may be that the better person - let's call them Michael Phelps - is consistently better, and the gold medal is almost assured. But does that make it less of an achievement? Oh, they always do really well, it's so boring. Which misses the point they always do really well.


I'm not sure I've ever known anyone to compare those who achieve with those who don't and to say they're comparable or on a par. I would agree that's rather idiotic, but I'm not sure in what context that would happen. If it has taken place and I've missed it, then my bad. And of course there are extremes. In the same way that I admire those who revel in their silver or bronze, I also found it profoundly moving when the British relay team - after being disqualified - looked absolutely crushed and felt the need to apologise to the nation, to their team mates etc. Similarly with the rowers who almost drove John Inverdale to tears. What I'm saying, in essence, is that every athlete/competitor has their own benchmarks, and who are we to impose them? Of course the media have their own agenda, but if one athlete considers tenth place a huge success while another considers silver a failure, then that's their prerogative and it's more than a little presumptious for us to decide how they should measure their personal achievements.

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Post #: 1787
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:40:06 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
Well, we do impose some benchmarks because we pay for them. That's what UK Sport is all about. The one where no benchmarks were set - and I think there was only one - was the one UK Sport didn't fund.

Also, apparently, they don't fund Idowu.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 1788
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:44:10 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
Oh, I'm not saying we should presume to decide how they measure their personal achievements.

But there are benchmarks in competition, generally three, of different metallic colours...

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Post #: 1789
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 11:50:25 AM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 15/2/2006
I think I'm currently in fourth place in this argument/debate

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Post #: 1790
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 12:53:51 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
No prizes for fourth place!

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Post #: 1791
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 1:03:09 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
I've never understood why anyone would be unhappy with a bronze - there's billions of people in this world, you are one of the top three out of billions in your event - a acheivement made even more impressive due to the infrequency of the Olympics

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Post #: 1792
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 1:10:21 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
I couldn't sleep last night and caught the World News segment on News 24 (although I'm now remembering Homer said something about a different name!). They were talking to a chap who used to run a sports newspaper in China.

For them, the silvers and bronzes are pretty much dismissed - they don't give a toss about them because they aren't gold (not so much Communists as perfect Tories it seems).

For the gold - apparently jobs for life in one or other sports set-up (probably province level) for those not going on. 80K from the govt, probably 80k from their province, another from their sports set-up and probably one more. So, for them, around 1 million local currency.

I think, actually, the UK is one of the few countries that gives medal winning athletes nothing.


_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 1793
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 1:42:29 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12192
Joined: 30/9/2005
Mo Farah runs away from things:

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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 1794
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 2:06:03 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

The nation was needy. Gold, gold, gold.



I don't understand this. Are you criticising "the nation" (whatever that means)? Or the media? Or people here on this forum?

And what, exactly, is the criticism? For wanting gold medals in a competition, the aim of which is to get gold medals?

I don't understand the fixation with adequacy, or the idea that somehow wanting to be a winner is a bad thing. It's a competition: people want to win. People want the athletes to win. It is about winning, because, well, I don't know how I can say this in a different way, the Olympics is a competition...


The media is classless. The nation was needy. I clearly separated the two. I don't believe I ever mentioned the people on this forum.

The nation, as in the people. And the representatives, elected or otherwise, of the people.

I don't believe it was a criticism. More an observation.

Those athletes who I wanted to win I wanted to win for the sake of them. I do not bask in their glory. There is no we, or us for me. Their victories are theirs. Not ours or by extension mine. It seems to me that a fair whack of the desire for the athletes to win gold was because a fair whack of folk see the victories as collective and so a little bit personal.

People seem to need vicarious glory. Always have done. It's not pretty. I don't think it's fair to those whose shoulders carry the weight of these hopes and expectations - especially when it gets to expectations. So usually I want those athletes to win for the sake of the athlete. Unless I don't like the athlete.

I've no problem with winning. I like winning. Winning is ace. Athletes chosen by the polity I live in to represent that polity are not, to me, a personification of me or the collective of people in the polity I live in. To others they are. Their wins or losses do not reflect on me in any way. Others feel that they do. That's the way I see it.

_____________________________

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(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1795
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 2:35:27 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20121
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

The nation was needy. I clearly separated the two. I don't believe I ever mentioned the people on this forum.

The nation, as in the people. And the representatives, elected or otherwise, of the people.



So, not the people on this forum, but the people of the nation. Are we not in the nation too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

Athletes chosen by the polity I live in to represent that polity are not, to me, a personification of me or the collective of people in the polity I live in. To others they are. Their wins or losses do not reflect on me in any way. Others feel that they do. That's the way I see it.


What the fuck is a "polity"?

_____________________________

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(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 1796
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 2:46:02 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby


The nation was needy. Gold, gold, gold.




Why is it needy for the a nation to want it's athletes to succeed?

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 1797
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 3:00:29 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 15/2/2006
The argument that it's just about wanting individuals to win - and therefore scoffing at the vicarious nature of most fans who want GBR to do well, or a nation's appetite for gold - is nonsense. What that is suggesting is that because Ennis is a damned nice girl who works hard, she deserves gold. So does that mean the others aren't decent people who deserve gold? No, it's because as a nation we focus on our own athletes (or indeed the coverage does) as any nation does. I've no idea who the other athletes were lining up alongside her. It's a form of tribalism, of course, in the same way as supporting a football team is - otherwise, why have a medals table showing USA v China v GBR etc? And if one should only want an athlete to succeed for them and to have no vested interest ourselves, then you can immediately eradicate all team sports. Rooney isn't a nice, sweet young girl, but I'm not going to start supporting Chelsea because of that.

I'm determined to get into the medals.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 1798
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 3:05:10 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

The nation was needy. I clearly separated the two. I don't believe I ever mentioned the people on this forum.

The nation, as in the people. And the representatives, elected or otherwise, of the people.



So, not the people on this forum, but the people of the nation. Are we not in the nation too?

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

Athletes chosen by the polity I live in to represent that polity are not, to me, a personification of me or the collective of people in the polity I live in. To others they are. Their wins or losses do not reflect on me in any way. Others feel that they do. That's the way I see it.


What the fuck is a "polity"?



Polity comes from Hobbes' Leviathan. It can mean a geographic area with a government, the system of government of a state or the commonwealth of a region from whence the government comes. The commonwealth of the British Isles and those chosen by the commonwealth to govern in a manner chosen by the commonwealth. Commonwealth being the body of people. As a picture:





_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1799
RE: Olympic Games 2012. - 14/8/2012 3:08:12 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby


The nation was needy. Gold, gold, gold.




Why is it needy for the a nation to want it's athletes to succeed?



Why does a nation want "its" athletes to succeed?

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 1800
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