Deviation
Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
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Not if anything to say about it I have
YOU SHALL FALL
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You're missing the point though. It isn't about "other people". The civil rights movement didn't happen because white people suddenly grew a conscience. It happened because black people refused to settle anymore for the kind of shit they were being subjected to.
Yes, and this is not about the those who start a movement and who had the power to do so. This is about those who fail in doing so due to social constraints, those who resigned. Also, black people didn't suddenly refuse to accept their condition. There was slavery for about two centuries before the Emancipation Act and a century more before black movements started appearing. The clones were only in existence for not even a century and YOU can teach someone to think he/she is inferior and that he is to die anytime soon in a closed, manipulative, controlled environment.
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Who are these people?
You could say it's related to circumstance. People who have lived and died in slavery for example, women who have accepted as being inferior to men in marriage for may centuries (I doubt history was filled with gallant feminists who did everything for gender equality), people in concentration camps who did not fight back (and there wasn't a big number who fought back), religoin....
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Bud didn't necessarily go willingly.
I think people like the kamikaze and banzai charges did go very willingly to their deaths. Or those who commit suicide. Or those many slaves had to accept that position, many in torrid living conditions and inequality did accept that. or those told by religions and cults to do so. They were those who fought against it true, but they were those who simply submitted to it, sad as it is.
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You have a poor opinion of the human spirit of the human spirit if you believe this to be possible.
What is the human spirit? *feels obnoxiously sophistic*
(I'll explain my reasoning on why I accept it further down)
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Sacrificing yourself, like say, on a battefield or dying in glory to save somebody isn't exactly the same thing as your entire life being solely for the purpose of saving somebody you do not know and who may very well not deserve it.
Not if you are repeatedly told that it is from birth. Soldiers have been sent to their deaths to die in glory less deaths in repulsive places before for lurid political purposes. I don't see how teaching a person that he has to die from start out of duty by giving his organs to other people is any less unrealistic.
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The owners of the school perhaps. Something that our "heroes" knew nothing about until the end. And when they did find out they should have been filled with more desire to live than to die when they're told that they're actually human after all.
Or simply resigned becuase they saw the situation as even more hopeless since not even actual proof can make people care for their life. An error and a mistake of theirs.
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Due to them already having vital organs removed.
After being told all their lives they must.
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Which only serves to strengthen my point of: Why should I care about them when they don't care about themselves?
In this point, nothing I say will convince you on why you should care, but I did feel empathy at what they fail to achieve and do and how hopeless they felt. This doesn't mean you must, but I certainly felt sad at how they failed to make their situations better. It's the same tragedy I felt when Thomas Jane does what he does at the of The Mist instead of doing the right thing in that circumstance, if this makes sense
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I know nothing of Remains of the Day except that the source novels are by the same author.
I see them quite similar in theme.
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We see practically nobody's attitudes towards the clones. Everybody we do see seems to have the air of shame over them. The teachers in the school (especially the one who tries to tell them the truth) all seem not to entirely enjoy their jobs. The nurse in the hospital who commiserates with Carey Mulligan over Keira Knightleys imminent death. The farmer of the cottages who seems not to want to attach himself to them. None of the "real" humans in the movie give off a "racist" (for want of a better word) attitude towards them which would also imply that their existence doesn't sit very well with the general populous despite what their head teacher says.
This just shows they are not really integrated into society for what could be many reasons, but we never go away of the clones perception of the story so we might not know.
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Which is what made fail for me because we have no context in which to place their resigned attitude towards death.
I have. It's coming....
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Wouldnt take much except you're thinking of things in the wrong order. A) They're told they're bred to die B) They go out to the outside world and see its worth living. It doesn't happen the other way around so stripping off that layer is not as easy when the alternative is dying.
By that time of B they would have accepted it though. From what I got they do enjoy the life offered but they also accept that they have to give in. Any desire of living might have been taken away by that restriction has been imposed on them.
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I got no sense of this chastising. I got a great sense of "pity these poor bastards" instead of "scoff at these useless bastards"
Only it does, by showing their failures in not acting to do and failing in hope. It shows the consequences of what these characters do.
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The part where they believe it and actually do it.
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Which is what makes them pathetic.
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No I can't. I can buy into people dying as a form of a duty to a perceived greater good. I can understand why people die in wars. I can understand why terrorists kill themselves in suicide bombs. They do it because they believe (as misguided as it may be) that doing so will help their friends and family and their people ultimately.
These characters are apparently in love and therefore have an even greater impetus to live if not for themselves then for the ones they love but they do little to nothing.
It's also clear that they humans are not worried about the clones doing anything drastic to themselves or others as hardly any security measures are put into place other than the tag at the doors. They're allowed to freely go out into the country where for all the humans know they could be plotting an uprising. This suggests to me that all the other clones are as useless as our "heroes"
I've decided to join this four comments together. *DDDDDDUUUUUURRRRRN*
This is the part where I say my bit mentioned in the human spirit bit (and bits which I have discussed with another person the last day). The film is probably an extreme allegory but I do think the workings shown in the film can be possible. When one is being told over and over again that they should accept the ultimate sacrifice, giving up their own lives, although they should not consider it as such, but rather as the PROPER order of things. I do beleive a person can end believing the things the clones do. The decisions we do regardless of their significance are based on a Whim rather than based on rational reasoning. Whim is governed by emotion, emotion is governed by Habit. Habit is governed by repetition. Repetition is a mind-conditioning effect telling us this is the way things go. So if one is told this is the proper way for thing to go, and his mind is conditioned to believe so, then he may not resist the idea of death, cos it'd be under the guise of self-sacrifice, noble deeds, having your organs taken out at a certain age etc....I do believe that repetition and careful manipulation can lead to the clones to believe such things. They were in a closed system, through indoctrination and exemplification there may arise specific behavioural patterns according to a manipulator's intention.
After them being taught that all their lives in that manner, I don't see anything pathetic in them resigning.
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I was talking about their oppressors when I said "Its about giving them a hard enough time so that they'll give in for an easy life. ". As I said earlier, movements don't necessarily succeed because the oppressors suddenly grow a conscience.
That's true, but this still proved a failure that destroyed any hope the clones had for living longer.
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Which means (god help me for saying this) that the Island is probably more realistic than this movie. Oh god I feel dirty
You believe a film where a man spends his life with Scarlett Johanson and still didn't get sexual urges? Now that's undermining human nature.
(and it was a different scenario thinking of it, unlike NLMG, the entire reality was a sham, in NLMG, it still was part of their reality)
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She doesn't express regret at all though. She never actually says "fuck me I was an idiot for doing nothing for ten whole years". She doesn't even really blame Keira Knightley all that much. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Carey Mulligan was shite in this film. She was emotionless. Andrew Garfield was a wimp. Keira Knightley was a bitch. Unattractive characters.
She clearly shows emotions of regret and sadness towards what happened. She probably knows it is her fault for choosing her career over Garfield and Garfield was weak and basically couldn't do anything. Knghtly realizes her mistake and what a bitch she was at the end, that's pretty clear with her tracking the Madame.
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Aha!!! A weakness. Your defenses are up. I strike!!!!
hehehehe he thinks I've given him a false sense of security, cunning plan is working.
< Message edited by Deviation -- 12/2/2011 12:31:22 AM >
_____________________________
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ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.
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ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates
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