RE: "A new and aggressive atheism"

Follow @empiremagazine

Forum Home

Register for Free!

Log In

Moderator Tickets

FAQ

Users Online

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism"

Logged in as: Guest

Printable Version

All Forums >> [On Another Note...] >> News and Hot Topics >> RE: "A new and aggressive atheism"

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 3:13:53 PM

DJ Satan

Posts: 8602
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: White Vaart Lane

http://www.amnesty.org/en/individuals-at-risk/write-for-rights/nine-whrds

Nine women's rights defenders are facing legal proceedings for their involvement in the case of a nine-year-old girl who obtained a legal abortion in Nicaragua after she was raped and became pregnant. It is feared that they have been targeted for their human rights work, particularly in the area of reproductive health.
In October 2007, the Nicaraguan Association for Human Rights, an NGO backed by the Catholic Church in Nicaragua, brought a legal complaint against the women citing their work in the case of the nine-year-old child.

Because the Catholic Church is such a force for good.

< Message edited by DJ Satan -- 16/9/2010 3:14:38 PM >

_____________________________

Don't try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person
You hadn't had enough to know what it's like
You're only angry cause you wish you were in my position
Now nod your head cause you know that I'm right..alright!

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 61

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 3:32:08 PM

sharkboy

Posts: 6031
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

.. we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society ... the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century...

Since when did the Nazis wish to "eradicate god from society"? Wasn't one of the first acts of Hitler as chancellor to sign the Reichskonkordat with the Holy See? In addition, Nazism has very distinct ties to Lutheran beliefs - Luther's 450th anniversary was even celebrated by the Nazi party and the German state. Indeed, in the early days of power, Hitler went out of his way to, as he himself put it, "stamp atheism out", and even considered establishing a unified Reich church. In fact, here's what he had to say about the subject in 1933, the year the Reichskonkordat with the Vatican was agreed:

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life."

The old view that nazi=evil atheist has long been challenged in academic circles - just apparently not by former Hitler Youth members.

Some cardinal didn't research his material very well, did he? Must have been in too much pain from gout...

_____________________________

WWLD?

Every time we think we have measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we're reminded that that capacity may well be limitless

I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit.

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 62

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 3:52:01 PM

DJ Satan

Posts: 8602
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: White Vaart Lane

Dawkins says "the gloves are off"!
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/518808-pope-s-holyroodhouse-speech-transcript/comments?page=1#comment_518842

_____________________________

Don't try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person
You hadn't had enough to know what it's like
You're only angry cause you wish you were in my position
Now nod your head cause you know that I'm right..alright!

(in reply to sharkboy)

Post #: 63

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 4:07:31 PM

daemonic

Posts: 75
Joined: 8/6/2009

all this talk of the gloves being off and bombarding newspapers sounds very AGGRESSIVE

< Message edited by daemonic -- 16/9/2010 4:08:18 PM >

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 64

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 4:09:04 PM

boaby

Posts: 2788
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

any news on the Hitchens/Dawkins claims they were gonna arrest the Pope for crimes against humanity?

Obviously Hitechens has more immediate concerns, but I didn;t expect him to let go of this one.

the pope would be nothing without his sheep. The institution is the church. They gain authority from the numpties who accept the pope's claim to be Christ's vicar on earth. Without the sheep there'd be no way the institution could do what it does. Catholics, especially educated Catholics, deserve all the ridicule coming their way for being credulous enough to prop up the institution.

Bloody religion.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 65

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 5:52:51 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11273
Joined: 30/9/2005

To be honest I'm watching the coverage with a slightly morbid curiosity of there being a protest or two. Flour bombing the Pope!

(in reply to boaby)

Post #: 66

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 5:53:04 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
Personally I have big issues with the Catholic faith, but I have bigger issues with Atheists. Smug bastards most of them, and I don't disagree with the comments about "agressive atheists"
Atheists IMO are the new non-smokers, the people who look down their noses on religion and faith and can only comment on paedophilia or the vast wealth without even bothering to look at the good that arises from "having faith" (which sounds better than "being religious") Because they think they can explain everything with science and that twattishly dull keyboard player from D-Ream, any kind of religion is scorned and dismissed.

Thank fuck I married a catholic.

Anyway, ignoring the dribblings of the old man, isn't aggressive atheism, nihilism...?

I tend to confuse them with Nazis.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to clownfoot)

Post #: 67

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 6:01:17 PM

Rebenectomy

Posts: 5534
Joined: 20/1/2008
From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

To be honest I'm watching the coverage with a slightly morbid curiosity of there being a protest or two. Flour bombing the Pope!

Food colouring and water in a super soaker is the way to go, you'd never get close enough to flour bomb.

_____________________________

TARDIS = Time And Relative Digestives In Space

(in reply to Hood_Man)

Post #: 68

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 6:13:56 PM

elab49

Posts: 51600
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

Afterwards his spokesman Federico Lombardi said: "I think the Pope knows rather well what the Nazi ideology is".

Well. Yes. He certainly does. But I don't think that's what he meant to say.

After yesterdays screwed up Vatican response to the 3rd world thing, and then this - Demoncleaner's right. They need some remedial spokesmanship lessons

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

Films watched 2012

What are your top 10/25 films of 2012? Vote in the forum Annual Poll now! Deadline is Sunday.

(in reply to Rebenectomy)

Post #: 69

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 6:35:47 PM

JessFranco

Posts: 2515
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London

quote:

Surely the problem is implicitly accepting him as a head of state which he simply is not, unless we're going to ratify all convenient agreements made by Fascists to bolster support. And, while doing so, allow them to play on it to try and get immunity from the many attempts to prosecute someone for the endemic abuse of children.

'State' is a convenient fiction agreed with fascists in the 20s. The UN should have the balls to put it bluntly rather than this silly observer status.

I think technically, the UK has diplomatic relations with the Holy See rather than with the Vatican, although i might be wrong. The Lateran Pact isn't essential to that.

quote:

They gain authority from the numpties who accept the pope's claim to be Christ's vicar on earth. Without the sheep there'd be no way the institution could do what it does. Catholics, especially educated Catholics, deserve all the ridicule coming their way for being credulous enough to prop up the institution.

Most educated Catholics are quite content to ignore him. I imagine most uneducated ones are as well. He clearly has a huge amount of influence on Church policy but his writ has its limits. It's always worth remembering that the Catholic church is a political institution - there are hardline conservatives like Benedict and John Paul II, and there are liberal and left-leaning representatives as well. The right has been dominant for decades but their outlook isn't universal within the clergy, let alone the faithful.

Coming back to the earlier point - the church does a lot of very good things, probably more than the individual members would do on their own without it. It also does a lot of regressive, destructive, stupid things - again, probably more than would be done in its absence. Lots of people involved in it will be using their influence to tip that balance in the positive direction - reforming from inside.

_____________________________

Even the French know better than to fuck with me

http://closer-to-perfection.tumblr.com/

(in reply to elab49)

Post #: 70

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 7:06:12 PM

DJ Satan

Posts: 8602
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: White Vaart Lane

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco
Most educated Catholics are quite content to ignore him. I imagine most uneducated ones are as well. He clearly has a huge amount of influence on Church policy but his writ has its limits. It's always worth remembering that the Catholic church is a political institution - there are hardline conservatives like Benedict and John Paul II, and there are liberal and left-leaning representatives as well. The right has been dominant for decades but their outlook isn't universal within the clergy, let alone the faithful.

But isn't part of being Catholic believing that that Pope is God's representative on earth. If you don't believe that than shouldn't they be protestant rather then Catholic?

I would agree that the Pope doesn't speak for all Christians but it is right to say that he does speak for all Catholics.

_____________________________

Don't try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person
You hadn't had enough to know what it's like
You're only angry cause you wish you were in my position
Now nod your head cause you know that I'm right..alright!

(in reply to JessFranco)

Post #: 71

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 7:14:15 PM

JessFranco

Posts: 2515
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London

quote:

But isn't part of being Catholic believing that that Pope is God's representative on earth. If you don't believe that than shouldn't they be protestant rather then Catholic?

I would agree that the Pope doesn't speak for all Christians but it is right to say that he does speak for all Catholics.

The relationship between the Pope and the Catholic faithful is a complicated one but it's clear that the vast majority of people who self-identify as Catholic wouldn't follow his doctrine to the letter. You have some ultra-hardline Catholics who don't think there has been a legitimate Pope since 1958 and probably hundreds of millions who have a certain respect for the institution, and a great love of the religion, but don't subscribe to the idea that they have to blindly follow whatever the current incumbent says. How they square that with the official doctrine is up to them but it's the de facto position of most, including many clerics.

_____________________________

Even the French know better than to fuck with me

http://closer-to-perfection.tumblr.com/

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 72

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 7:15:25 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

quote:

But isn't part of being Catholic believing that that Pope is God's representative on earth. If you don't believe that than shouldn't they be protestant rather then Catholic?

I would agree that the Pope doesn't speak for all Christians but it is right to say that he does speak for all Catholics.

The relationship between the Pope and the Catholic faithful is a complicated one but it's clear that the vast majority of people who self-identify as Catholic wouldn't follow his doctrine to the letter. You have some ultra-hardline Catholics who don't think there has been a legitimate Pope since 1958 and probably hundreds of millions who have a certain respect for the institution, and a great love of the religion, but don't subscribe to the idea that they have to blindly follow whatever the current incumbent says. How they square that with the official doctrine is up to them but it's the de facto position of most, including many clerics.

Which is what most Catholics I know do.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to JessFranco)

Post #: 73

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 7:22:20 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9856
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Because the Catholic Church is such a force for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities
http://dir.yahoo.com/society_and_culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/christianity/denominations_and_sects/catholic/organizations/charities/

_____________________________

Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to DJ Satan)

Post #: 74

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 8:03:48 PM

Rebenectomy

Posts: 5534
Joined: 20/1/2008
From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

quote:

But isn't part of being Catholic believing that that Pope is God's representative on earth. If you don't believe that than shouldn't they be protestant rather then Catholic?

I would agree that the Pope doesn't speak for all Christians but it is right to say that he does speak for all Catholics.

The relationship between the Pope and the Catholic faithful is a complicated one but it's clear that the vast majority of people who self-identify as Catholic wouldn't follow his doctrine to the letter. You have some ultra-hardline Catholics who don't think there has been a legitimate Pope since 1958 and probably hundreds of millions who have a certain respect for the institution, and a great love of the religion, but don't subscribe to the idea that they have to blindly follow whatever the current incumbent says. How they square that with the official doctrine is up to them but it's the de facto position of most, including many clerics.

Which is what most Catholics I know do.

Certainly, this was the Catholicism I was raised with. And just because you don't accept that the pope is God's representative on earth does not make you a protestant as it ignores some fundamental doctrinal belief differences such as the rejection of justification by faith alone, different approaches to transubstantiation and the sacraments, approaches to confession and absolution etc. Most Catholics I know to identify themselves with the church and Catholic community, but on a far more localised level. In reality, unless you're clergy Rome has little significance, except of course when they are covering up paedophilia and spouting nonsense about the holocaust, women, homosexuals etc, in which case they are a pain in the arse and an embarrassment.

_____________________________

TARDIS = Time And Relative Digestives In Space

(in reply to Deviation)

Post #: 75

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 8:17:36 PM

Jar Jar Gabor

Posts: 250
Joined: 30/9/2005

I'm an extreme atheist.

If I see someone loudly proclaiming the divinity of Christ in the street I tut to myself and, get this, sometimes shake my head!

I drew a pair of norks in my friend's bible once.

I occasionally take the lord's name in vain, sometimes on purpose for Christ's sake.

Um...one time I done a fart in a Church?

Yeah. You heard me. The revolution starts here!

_____________________________

"My mother did throw me against a brick wall when I was an infant. I didn't get hurt at all. I've mentioned it to her a couple of times. She said I was a little prick."

DVD's wot I own.

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 76

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 8:18:12 PM

Felix

Posts: 15691
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Because the Catholic Church is such a force for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities
http://dir.yahoo.com/society_and_culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/christianity/denominations_and_sects/catholic/organizations/charities/

Yeah DJ, dont criticise the Catholic church, after all, they're spreading their wealth around great nowadays...

http://news.scotsman.com/abuseinthecatholicchurch/Catholic-church-in-LA-to.3304467.jp

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 77

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 8:20:08 PM

Felix

Posts: 15691
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jar Jar Gabor

Um...one time I done a fart in a Church?

Thats disgraceful. You should be ashamed of yourself...

'You farted' in church, not 'you done a fart'...

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to Jar Jar Gabor)

Post #: 78

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 8:48:55 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15033
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

I went to a Catholic church once and spent most of the service checking out the brunette two rows in front.

What does that make me?

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

(in reply to Felix)

Post #: 79

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:08:49 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16706
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

As a state visit I am just wondering when matters of state such as trade and immigration etc are going to be discussed. If they are I have no problems with the tax payer paying for those times. Now if all he is doing is promoting his religion then that is another matter.

_____________________________

Nothing to see here.

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 80

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:09:20 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9856
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Felix

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Because the Catholic Church is such a force for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities
http://dir.yahoo.com/society_and_culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/christianity/denominations_and_sects/catholic/organizations/charities/

Yeah DJ, dont criticise the Catholic church, after all, they're spreading their wealth around great nowadays...

http://news.scotsman.com/abuseinthecatholicchurch/Catholic-church-in-LA-to.3304467.jp

And?

Do you call the entire human race a pool of scum because we've produced murderers and rapists? No one is denying wrongs have been committed in the Church but to deny that they have done a lot of good work that have helped millions of people is complete crap.

_____________________________

Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to Felix)

Post #: 81

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:09:41 PM

Jar Jar Gabor

Posts: 250
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

I went to a Catholic church once and spent most of the service checking out the brunette two rows in front.

What does that make me?

That depends. How old was he?

<zing!>

_____________________________

"My mother did throw me against a brick wall when I was an infant. I didn't get hurt at all. I've mentioned it to her a couple of times. She said I was a little prick."

DVD's wot I own.

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 82

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:10:22 PM

Felix

Posts: 15691
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Do you call the entire human race a pool of scum because we've produced murderers and rapists?� No one is denying wrongs have been committed in the Church but to deny that they have done a lot of good work that have helped millions of people is complete crap.

Where did I deny they'd done the good you stated?

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 83

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:17:36 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9856
Joined: 30/9/2005

Your snarky post implies that the bad invalidates the good.

_____________________________

Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to Felix)

Post #: 84

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:19:02 PM

Felix

Posts: 15691
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

It doesnt help it.

Your snarky post implies that the good means the bad doesnt matter.

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 85

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:22:24 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16706
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Felix

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Because the Catholic Church is such a force for good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities
http://dir.yahoo.com/society_and_culture/religion_and_spirituality/faiths_and_practices/christianity/denominations_and_sects/catholic/organizations/charities/

Yeah DJ, dont criticise the Catholic church, after all, they're spreading their wealth around great nowadays...

http://news.scotsman.com/abuseinthecatholicchurch/Catholic-church-in-LA-to.3304467.jp

And?�

Do you call the entire human race a pool of scum because we've produced murderers and rapists?� No one is denying wrongs have been committed in the Church but to deny that they have done a lot of good work that have helped millions of people is complete crap.

I think it is more that the wrong which has been done has been perpetuated with the assistance of those very high up in the church (with suggestions that Ratzinger himself had a hand in covering aspects of it up). This allowed those who had committed atrocious acts to carry on doing so with impunity in other areas. this suggests that those in power within the church felt that the good image of the church was more important to them than the protecting the congregation from the terrible acts which were being committed by so very many of their priests. If correct this is a disgusting thing and taints any good they have done.

_____________________________

Nothing to see here.

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 86

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:28:53 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9856
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Felix

It doesnt help it.

Your snarky post implies that the good means the bad doesnt matter.

Of course it matters, but reading the stuff on this forum you'd think the entire Catholic Church are nothing but evil people who have done no good, which is a belief that is just as rubbish, if not more so, as someone who believes they are infallible.

_____________________________

Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to Felix)

Post #: 87

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:32:01 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16706
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

Not more so.

_____________________________

Nothing to see here.

(in reply to directorscut)

Post #: 88

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:32:06 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15033
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jar Jar Gabor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

I went to a Catholic church once and spent most of the service checking out the brunette two rows in front.

What does that make me?

That depends. How old was he?

<zing!>

Boooom!

She was about 25 and I'm fairly certain she was sat with her newborn baby and husband.

I'm a bad man.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

(in reply to Jar Jar Gabor)

Post #: 89

RE: "A new and aggressive atheism" - 16/9/2010 9:33:46 PM

demoncleaner

Posts: 2166
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

As a state visit I am just wondering when matters of state such as trade and immigration etc are going to be discussed. If they are I have no problems with the tax payer paying for those times. Now if all he is doing is promoting his religion then that is another matter.

Well, there's his movie too, and he might plug the Dizzy Rascal colloboration. But if he doesn't mention any of those I'm betting he defaults to the 'oul "promoting of his religion" thing. He's Head of State to a square acre of penguins, I don't think there's a lot of trade and/or immigration that goes on there.

_____________________________

"I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit."

(in reply to sanchia)

Post #: 90