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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel

 
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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 29/3/2013 1:28:31 AM   
Keyser Sozzled


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@ This debate, a lot like Catholicism, I dont care anymore, And seeing as I am burying my Mam on Tuesday says a lot.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 10:32:23 AM   
Brooksy84


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Very sorry to hear that.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 11:00:26 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
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Indeed Keyser sorry to read about that.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 1:53:03 PM   
Brooksy84


Posts: 461
Joined: 25/1/2010
http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21979034

This thread seems to have come full circle. "Aggressive secularisation"? Perhaps when the level of aggression meets what has been dished out by the major faiths over the years then we can continue this conversation. Until then, shut up you twat.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 2:55:20 PM   
Deviation


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It comes to a full circle because it was said by an Anglican this time?

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There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 3:36:44 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Essentially there are idiots on both sides who are of the opinion that you should only believe what they want you to believe (or not believe). If someone believes something which harms no one and does not enforce a belief which may cause harm then all well and good. Carry on believing.

I have personally known people in a particular evangelical church who are of the belief that all family members must be part of that same church (if on parent is not a member then they and the children shall go to hell no matter if the children are members of that church). they are also believers that if a person leaves that church they are to be cut off and all contact with that person is to be removed even if they are the parent of children who are part of the church (I have even heard of people moving to other countries to ensure that a parent who has left the church cannot have contact with the children who are still members). I consider this a very dangerous aspect to religion although I get the impression this evangelical church may be closer to a cult.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 30/3/2013 3:40:28 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 30/3/2013 10:02:05 PM   
Brooksy84


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No, full circle because of the name of the thread and the themes it was started to discuss.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 31/3/2013 12:30:17 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
Full circle right enough. Easter Sunday again!

Do not abandon yourselves to despair. We are the Easter people and hallelujah is our song.- John Paul the Great

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 31/3/2013 12:37:09 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12190
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme
Do not abandon yourselves to despair. We are the Easter people



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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 31/3/2013 3:54:47 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
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The Polynesians of Rapa Nui didn't have the best history following the building of those structures. That smiley is right.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 31/3/2013 6:54:24 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54599
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Essentially there are idiots on both sides who are of the opinion that you should only believe what they want you to believe (or not believe). If someone believes something which harms no one and does not enforce a belief which may cause harm then all well and good. Carry on believing.

I have personally known people in a particular evangelical church who are of the belief that all family members must be part of that same church (if on parent is not a member then they and the children shall go to hell no matter if the children are members of that church). they are also believers that if a person leaves that church they are to be cut off and all contact with that person is to be removed even if they are the parent of children who are part of the church (I have even heard of people moving to other countries to ensure that a parent who has left the church cannot have contact with the children who are still members). I consider this a very dangerous aspect to religion although I get the impression this evangelical church may be closer to a cult.


I think that's the same approach as C$Scientology. So yeah - cult

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 5/5/2013 11:19:18 AM   
Brooksy84


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Interesting topic on Big Question this morning: do religions treat women unfairly? Among the various points of discussion was a comment by a catholic woman (I forget her name, she was the head of some catholic group or other) that secularism leads to the over sexualisation of women, particularly young women and girls. This was swiftly followed by her pointing out that contraception makes women more available to men. For anyone to make this point is quite a claim, but for a woman to push that as an issue is pretty damaging surely?

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 5/5/2013 11:48:39 AM   
elab49


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Anyone not following their particular superstition is clearly morally suspect - so this idiocy isn't new.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 11:06:27 AM   
Brooksy84


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http://bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22423815

What with the arrests and murder of various bloggers and anti-Islamists this year, Bangladesh is looking like a pretty scary place to be a non-Muslim, or more specifically an atheist.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 4:51:59 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Interesting topic on Big Question this morning: do religions treat women unfairly? Among the various points of discussion was a comment by a catholic woman (I forget her name, she was the head of some catholic group or other) that secularism leads to the over sexualisation of women, particularly young women and girls. This was swiftly followed by her pointing out that contraception makes women more available to men. For anyone to make this point is quite a claim, but for a woman to push that as an issue is pretty damaging surely?


Damaging to what and how so? Why is it an especially damaging point when made by a woman?

Are you disputing the claim that contraception makes women more sexually available to men?

To make women more sexually available to men is whole point of contraception in the first place.

< Message edited by Mollybitme -- 6/5/2013 4:52:27 PM >

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 5:06:30 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Interesting topic on Big Question this morning: do religions treat women unfairly? Among the various points of discussion was a comment by a catholic woman (I forget her name, she was the head of some catholic group or other) that secularism leads to the over sexualisation of women, particularly young women and girls. This was swiftly followed by her pointing out that contraception makes women more available to men. For anyone to make this point is quite a claim, but for a woman to push that as an issue is pretty damaging surely?


Damaging to what and how so? Why is it an especially damaging point when made by a woman?

Are you disputing the claim that contraception makes women more sexually available to men?

To make women more sexually available to men is whole point of contraception in the first place.


For women to be more sexually available to men women have to make themselves available . The fact contraception exists does not mean that they are purely sexual creatures as a result. It could be said that it is freeing women from being baby producing machines and has alleviated many of the dangers which extensive pregnancy can sometimes cause whilst still allowing them intimacy, after all contraception is something which is used for married couples as well as for single women it assists in managing family size and can help prevent families falling into financial difficulty by having too many children to afford to feed/clothe etc. Contraception is so much more than just that freeing up women for men so they can have no risk sex, also women have libidos and sexual feelings as well, couldn't it also be stated that this allows sexuality to be available to women? It is a far,far more complex issue than simply stating it makes women available for men which is silly and simplistic statement.


< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 5:08:26 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 5:15:05 PM   
elab49


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The wording 'women sexually available to men' is extraordinarliy problematic. The point of contraception was more broadly seen as giving the woman more control in her choices. And not, eg, churning out kids every year no matter the damage to her health just because a priest said so. And let's not pretend huge swathes of the church at that point (and not entirely gone) didn't demand entry to homes every week and quite bluntly tell women they'd be going to hell if they did other than their duty. It happened to my mother-in-law, it happened to her niece. It happened to a couple of my friends (although I'd note here this was an area with older generation priests, so it is possible that rot was stopping in a new generation).

So this

quote:

To make women more sexually available to men is whole point of contraception in the first place.


is tits over backward in so many ways. And is a moral accusation, nothing more. It assumes an absolute lack of any choice, decision, control on the part of the woman. That a woman would happily say it actually is quite disturbing, but given the hysterical nonsense that type comes out with is hardly surprising. And suggesting secularism is responsible for over sexualisation of woman is nonsense. You've got an entire culture/religion that demands a woman be covered head to toe because they can't conceive of a woman as anything other than sexual. And the Catholic church has been fecked up about woman for years - hardly surprising in an entirely patriarchal organisation, no matter some nuns with more gumption try to do more.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 5:59:12 PM   
BigKovacs


Posts: 3203
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From: Textile Street.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Interesting topic on Big Question this morning: do religions treat women unfairly? Among the various points of discussion was a comment by a catholic woman (I forget her name, she was the head of some catholic group or other) that secularism leads to the over sexualisation of women, particularly young women and girls. This was swiftly followed by her pointing out that contraception makes women more available to men. For anyone to make this point is quite a claim, but for a woman to push that as an issue is pretty damaging surely?


I'm not sure how secularism leads to sexualisation of women, some religions relegate their women to little more than baby making servants so I'm at a loss to this women's position.

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 6:36:48 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
quote:


For women to be more sexually available to men women have to make themselves available .


Yup. And many more women will make themselves available if they are unencumbered by worries about pregnancy.

quote:


The fact contraception exists does not mean that they are purely sexual creatures as a result.


Ok. So? Who said otherwise?

quote:


It could be said that it is freeing women from being baby producing machines and has alleviated many of the dangers which extensive pregnancy can sometimes cause whilst still allowing them intimacy


This is totally irrelevant to whether contraception makes woman more sexually available to men. (EDIT: actually no, this premise actually supports the claim that contraception makes women more sexually available.)

quote:


Contraception is so much more than just that freeing up women for men so they can have no risk sex


This may or may not be true. Perhaps it makes you a great dancer too. Fact is though: it still makes women more sexually available to men.

quote:


couldn't it also be stated that this allows sexuality to be available to women?


After contraception women were able to indulge their sexual desire with more abandon because after conraception they became MORE AVAILABLE TO MEN. FOR SEX!

quote:


It is a far,far more complex issue than simply stating it makes women available for men which is silly and simplistic statement.


The issue is whether contraception makes women more available to men for sex. Plainly it does. If you think that's silly then please tell me why. As for simple then, yes, the truth is often simple although clouded minds will always struggle.


< Message edited by Mollybitme -- 6/5/2013 6:56:25 PM >

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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:07:33 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme

quote:


The fact contraception exists does not mean that they are purely sexual creatures as a result.


Ok. So? Who said otherwise?


Who said that the matter was so purely black and white as you state it? To pretend it is is to obfuscate the matter and simplfy it to a pointless level, there are various socio-political issues which are come into force following more widespread avaiability of contraception including greater empowerment of women to be able to pursue a career and not to be purely baby making machines who cannot have a sexual life if they wish to pursue that path. I gather you do not have a great understanding of feminism on any level?


quote:




It could be said that it is freeing women from being baby producing machines and has alleviated many of the dangers which extensive pregnancy can sometimes cause whilst still allowing them intimacy


This is totally irrelevant to whether contraception makes woman more sexually available to men.



Maybe but it is a very important issue on contraception which shows again that to try to make it a black and white issue is a stupid action. Some women may die if they have children, in the past thousands did. This shows that contraception is not simply "women are sexually available to men" it shows it is a larger issue on a grander and more complex scale.


quote:




Contraception is so much more than just that freeing up women for men so they can have no risk sex


This may or may not be true. Perhaps it makes you a great dancer too. Fact is though: it still makes women more sexually available to men.



It also make men available for women without the prior risks. It levels the playing field.


quote:




couldn't it also be stated that this allows sexuality to be available to women?


After contraception women were able to indulge their sexuality with more abandon because after conraception they became MORE AVAILABLE TO MEN. FOR SEX!



As stated it is far more than the simplistic issue you have presented. It has far more sociological impact than the simplist "More available to men for sex" .


quote:




It is a far,far more complex issue than simply stating it makes women available for men which is silly and simplistic statement.


The issue is whether contraception makes women more available to men for sex. Plainly it does. If you think that's silly then please tell me why. As for simple then, yes, the truth is often simple although clouded minds will always struggle.



I'm glad you are willing to admit your shortcomings with regards to understanding the issue. I suggest you educate yourself on basic feminist principles and look into the socio economic impact of contraception and the empowerment that it has provided to women, it may be enlightening. This has placed the control of their bodies back to the hands of the women who previously had no control of the issue. Husbands expected sexual availability from their wives and this often led to massive family sizes and ill health in women. It really is not a difficult concept.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 7:09:31 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:12:31 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme

quote:


The fact contraception exists does not mean that they are purely sexual creatures as a result.


Ok. So? Who said otherwise?


Who said that the matter was so purely black and white as you state it? To pretend it is is to obfuscate the matter and simplfy it to a pointless level, there are various socio-political issues which are come into force following more widespread avaiability of contraception including greater empowerment of women to be able to pursue a career and not to be purely baby making machines who cannot have a sexual life if they wish to pursue that path. I gather you do not have a great understanding of feminism on any level?


quote:




It could be said that it is freeing women from being baby producing machines and has alleviated many of the dangers which extensive pregnancy can sometimes cause whilst still allowing them intimacy


This is totally irrelevant to whether contraception makes woman more sexually available to men.



Maybe but it is a very important issue on contraception which shows again that to try to make it a black and white issue is a stupid action. Some women may die if they have children, in the past thousands did. This shows that contraception is not simply "women are sexually available to men" it shows it is a larger issue on a grander and more complex scale.


quote:




Contraception is so much more than just that freeing up women for men so they can have no risk sex


This may or may not be true. Perhaps it makes you a great dancer too. Fact is though: it still makes women more sexually available to men.



It also make men available for women without the prior risks. It levels the playing field.


quote:




couldn't it also be stated that this allows sexuality to be available to women?


After contraception women were able to indulge their sexuality with more abandon because after conraception they became MORE AVAILABLE TO MEN. FOR SEX!



As stated it is far more than the simplistic issue you have presented. It has far more sociological impact than the simplist "More available to men for sex" .


quote:




It is a far,far more complex issue than simply stating it makes women available for men which is silly and simplistic statement.


The issue is whether contraception makes women more available to men for sex. Plainly it does. If you think that's silly then please tell me why. As for simple then, yes, the truth is often simple although clouded minds will always struggle.



I'm glad you are willing to admit your shortcomings with regards to understanding the issue. I suggest you educate yourself on basic feminist principles and look into the socio economic impact of contraception and the empowerment that it has provided to women, it may be enlightening. This has placed the control of their bodies back to the hands of the women who previously had no control of the issue. Husbands expected sexual availability from their wives and this often led to massive family sizes and ill health in women. It really is not a difficult concept.


Oh my goodness, you are very boring and highly skilled at missing the point.

Let me ask you a question:

Does the widespread availability of contraception make women more available or less available to men for sex?

< Message edited by Mollybitme -- 6/5/2013 7:13:01 PM >

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Post #: 741
RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:20:12 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme


Oh my goodness, you are very boring and highly skilled at missing the point.

Let me ask you a question:

Does the widespread availability of contraception make women more available or less available to men for sex?


And you appear to be rather naive and undereducated on sociopolitical issues. The fact you wish to make things black and white and to ignore the complexity of the issue as do most people who shout out such things and that in itself is an issue about people who lack the desire to research or study an issue deciding they know best. No issue is is black and white and if you find an assessment which takes a deeper and more complex consideration of the issue to be boring then I suggest you do not try to defend that issue as you appear to lack the capacity to do so on a scale which is required. You cannot turn it into a single sentence statement it is so much more than that and to try to make it about that is foolish as life and society is so much more complex than that. As you appear to lack that ability I will not show you up any more.

To answer your question, in my experience no it does not make them more available.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 7:23:20 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:28:00 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme


Oh my goodness, you are very boring and highly skilled at missing the point.

Let me ask you a question:

Does the widespread availability of contraception make women more available or less available to men for sex?


And you appear to be rather naive and undereducated on sociopolitical issues. The fact you wish to make things black and white and to ignore the complexity of the issue as do most people who shout out such things and that in itself is an issue about people who lack the desire to research or study an issue deciding they know best. No issue is is black and white and if you find an assessment which takes a deeper and more complex consideration of the issue to be boring then I suggest you do not try to defend that issue as you appear to lack the capacity to do so on a scale which is required. You cannot turn it into a single sentence statement it is so much more than that and to try to make it about that is foolish as life and society is so much more complex than that.

To answer your question, in my experience no.


More available or less available. Yes or no. It is a black and white issue you twerp and no amount of priggish grandstanding will change that.



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Post #: 743
RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:31:15 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
As I stated I am not going to pander to your attempts to simplify a complex issue which you obviously do not understand.

One question. You have only ever posted in this thread never in any film threads (this being primarily a film forum) and never in any other threads at all. Are you a troll?

< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 7:33:06 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:37:34 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
What's a troll?

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Post #: 745
RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:40:08 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I get the impression you are. The fact you have only made 17 posts in one thread in over four years and the basic lack of information and confrontational aspect to your posts does suggest you are just attempting to get a rise from other forum users. As they so don't feed the troll, so adieu.

< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 7:41:25 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:43:12 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
Oh for crying out loud. I honestly thought you would act against your aversion to answering questions with that one but nope...still prefer to talk to yourself.

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Post #: 747
RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:50:07 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8286
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What's wrong with women being able to enjoy sex without worrying about getting pregnant?

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Post #: 748
RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 7:53:39 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18254
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mollybitme

Oh for crying out loud. I honestly thought you would act against your aversion to answering questions with that one but nope...still prefer to talk to yourself.


I get more sense that way. As stated the refusal to engage on any level of complexity, the limited post count, the posting in only one thread is a pattern which is very familiar. With regards to does contraception make women more available to men. It is a decision for the women to make, as I stated. They then have the option of being sexually available if they desire or not if that is what they want the existence of contraception does not alter who they are. There is no one enforcing contraception to be taken (in this country at least). As stated it is not a yes or no, black or white answer and to attempt to make it one is to obfuscate and simplify the issue which appears to be something you want to do as you show a through lack of anything more than the very basics of the issue. That shall be my final word on the matter as i am still of the opinion that you are a troll.

quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

What's wrong with women being able to enjoy sex without worrying about getting pregnant?


Which was one of my points about the complexity. Women deserve a right to sexuality as much as men.


< Message edited by sanchia -- 6/5/2013 7:55:21 PM >


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RE: Pope Goes The Weasel - 6/5/2013 8:05:27 PM   
Mollybitme

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 4/8/2009
quote:


They then have the option of being sexually available if they desire or not if that is what they want the existence of contraception does not alter who they are.


Ah I see. So you believe that the widespread uptake of an intervention which reduces the 'penalties' of a particular behavioural option, does not result in that option being chosen with an increased regularity compared with the time before the intervention was available. Even over, say, 60 years.

Got it.



< Message edited by Mollybitme -- 6/5/2013 8:09:02 PM >

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