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RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 1:19:03 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
But that is the thing Ninja - most people in this thread are open minded about life on other planets. The trouble comes when claims about spaceships coming here in times of old are raised.

If there was some sort of evidence that couldn't be explained by rational science/culture/history then I would be happy to consider it. At the moment these documentaries force a narrative which even just some digging online would show to be based on shaky if not downright deceptive foundations.

These things need a scienctific backbone - otherwise it is no better than Creationalists who place faith above evidence.

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Post #: 421
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 1:22:33 AM   
NinjaShortbread212


Posts: 4542
Joined: 26/4/2011
From: Edinburger, Scottyland
But it's coming across at times like "no, this is how it is", do you not think? I actually don't know how this is still being debated to be fair. I watched a documentary, I posted about it and then........................ Gah. I'm out.

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Post #: 422
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 1:30:45 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
Honestly? No - what I think I was doing was looking at the evidence you presented and offering an alternative solution that didn't require an extraterristal explanation.

I come from a History background and will more than likely go back and get my Phd one of these days. In that field you present a theory, test it, and then put it out for review. Much like in science.

Had a quick look online at some of the people who appear in Ancient Aliens, and have to say I don't see any of them with qualifications in the fields which they are talking about -

http://voices.yahoo.com/ancient-aliens-cast-their-credentials-8999687.html

I think what bothers me is that as someone who has been in history, who wants to go back and get fully qualifed, and has friends who can barely get together enough funding, sees a channel like History giving so much time and space to these guys, while the real stuff basically gets left in the corner.

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 3/7/2012 1:31:39 AM >


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Post #: 423
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 2:10:07 AM   
SWOTBM


Posts: 1998
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I remember watching an interesting documentary on the Egyptian pyramids; detailing the precision of the building, materials etc. Given they were built 4,000 odd years ago it is pretty astonishing. That doesn't automatically mean I believe aliens helped them build it- 4,000 years is a long time for the construction techniques to get lost/forgotten. But when you see those things up close it truly is amazing that they were built so long ago, with no modern tools but they managed to get such accuracy/precision.

FYI, don't ask the Eygptian tour guide if aliens built the pyramids, you get a look that is equal parts contempt/stupefaction

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Post #: 424
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 7:11:15 AM   
BigKovacs


Posts: 3209
Joined: 6/4/2006
From: Textile Street.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Well, I'm sold on the belief that there is indeed alien life out there. That's based on the fact that the Universe is so vast, housing all those Suns, Moons, Galaxies etc. etc. I'm sorry but to think that man and man alone is all that exists here, is to me extremely naive. But each to their own of course.



Suggesting that alien life exists somewhere in the universe is one thing and suggesting that not only do they exists but they've played an active part in our development as a species is another thing.



Quite. Yet it wasn't me that originally suggested that, unfortunately. It's the influence of many a mind on documentaries by scientists and professors in that field.



Scienctists and Professors in what field, Ancient Astronauts? There aren't any, it's a pseudo science. As I said earlier, Carl Sagan gave it a nod and that's as good as it gets. Again, fields that Ancient Astronaut theorists draw from (science, history and archaeology) debunk such notions constantly.

It's a fun idea but it can't and shouldn't be taken seriously.



I'd have to do a bit of Google research to find out the exact persons involved in the documentaries I've watched over the past few days. However, my point was this, isn't it exciting, to think that there could be other lifeforms out there and knowing (although not really fully) how big the galaxy is, that we're possibly not alone.


Again, proposing that Aliens could exist somewhere in the universe and proposing that not only do they exists but they have visited us and played a role in our development are two different things.

Most people on here would agree that it's possible that life exists elsewhere in the universe but that's not your core point, you're suggesting that Ancient Astronaut theories could hold water which quite simply, they don't.

quote:

I find it almost comforting to listen open mindedly, to both sides of an argument. It's a controversial topic, sure but just because someone says "this is how it is" in their eyes, they really don't know for sure that that's how it is. These documentaries are great for hearing about specific times in history and also imagining what our ancestors possibly did witness back then.


It's not controversial and there is no argument. People with no real background in what they claim to study, push a theory (calling it a theory is actually being too kind) that has been debunked time and time again by professionals across several legitimate fields.

Ancient Adtronaut theory is a nice idea but without any kind of evidence whatsoever it's just wishful thinking. It's literally science fiction.

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Post #: 425
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 9:36:34 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

Fair enough. I still think there is a resemblance to spacecraft there though.



As Rgirv said though, the respresentation is fairly consistent with the history of the science of astronomy. The concept of the crystalline spheres, e.g., would give certain shapes to the drawings they were making because they weren't looking at balls of gas etc. It's like someone looked at that pic and thought 'oh that looks like' but then didn't first try to explain it - they went straight to spaceships.




Good point. There were however, other drawings dating back thousands of years on caves etc, that literally resemble "little green men". They do not look like us homosapiens one bit (with regards to face and body structure) and also the other objects painted beside them, were of what look like variations on spacecraft too.

There's many a theory and explanation I know. Perhaps my judgement is a little clouded but I just love the thought that we're potentially not alone in the Universe and that in the past, their was perhaps some level of communication between us and other worlds.


I'm with Rgirv and others on this (and having just gotten my 2nd degree in history, that focussed on science and medicine - as well as film! - I also see the problems with going further, both funding and the available courses contracting all over the shop).

Produce theory and back-up evidence - looking at old pictures and imposing our different worldview on those creations is something that simply isn't permissible in most disciplines as it taints analysis (e,g. medicine and the history of medicine really frown on trying to impose modern diagnosis on famous old deaths based on unreliable reporting of symptoms, whereas for many of these deaths there is now a generally accepted 'truth' of their death based on looser histories 'determining' that). And there is a lot of work that can be and has been done on them - linking civilisations through artistic output, e.g. and being able to follow massive seemingly impossible journeys.

But aliens? It forgets the 360. Where we get our idea of spaceships being big metal things from and where von Daniken based his madcap theories - so when we look back at these we're utilising a viewpoint that's already been put in the modern arena based on them then twisted. We're not looking with unbiased eyes in the first place.

All of this is entirely distinct from the possibility of life in the universe. Something, I agree, it would be very odd to dismiss


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Post #: 426
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 10:04:31 AM   
matty_b


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From: Outpost 31 calling McMurtle.
Someone explain this one to me then.



Eh? Eh?

Exactly.

YOU CAN'T.


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RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 10:08:46 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

Someone explain this one to me then.



Eh? Eh?

Exactly.

YOU CAN'T.



That's not aliens that's science - it's a man with B.o.b. from Monsters vs Aliens on his head. But he's only the monster half of the title. So there


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Post #: 428
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 10:15:25 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6288
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

Again, proposing that Aliens could exist somewhere in the universe and proposing that not only do they exists but they have visited us and played a role in our development are two different things.



I think this is the crux of the matter really, and I'm sorry if this feels like you're being picked on Ninj, but I assure you that this is not the case!

I've already mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but to clarify...

Do I think there is life elsewhere in the universe?  Absolutely.  It's very blinkered and naieve (not to mention pretty depressing!) to think that in an infinite universe that reveals new things to us on an almost daily basis, we're the only spark of life around.  As to what form this life takes, I'd like to believe that there are advanced civilisations out there too, perhaps even some with the technology for space flight.  After all, we're the product of only a few million years of evolution, and only a few thousand years of "civilisation".  Dinosaurs were around for approx 180 million years - who knows what would have happened had they been given a further 65 million years to evolve instead of being wiped out?  Who is to say there isn't some civilisation out there with a couple of hundred million years of evolution already under its belt that treat space flight the same way we treat car travel?  But (and here's the clincher), it doesn't matter how advanced they are or even how close they are in terms of neighbouring systems, they're still bound by the same laws of physics that apply elsewhere in the universe.  And that precludes faster-than-light travel just for what is in effect a quick flying visit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NinjaShortbread212

However, my point was this, isn't it exciting, to think that there could be other lifeforms out there and knowing (although not really fully) how big the galaxy is, that we're possibly not alone.


I couldn't agree more.  I still get a tingle seeing new shots from Hubble, or hearing reports that Voyager is close to leaving our solar system (and if you really want to be amazed by our achievements as a species, how's this - the transmissions from Voyager are sent using a radio that has the same power as the average car brake light.  Just for a second, imagine trying to locate a single brake light in the middle of an open plain from about 10 miles away.  NASA scientists are doing that on a daily basis, but over 10 billion miles away and in three dimensions.

My point is this - there is plenty out there to keep someone in a perpetual state of excitement about the wonders of the universe without having to factor in little green men.  I know that if the probe that is being sent to Europa finally breaks through the surface ice to discover life (no matter how basic), I'll be amazed yet again by what our universe contains.

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Post #: 429
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:01:18 AM   
Dpp1978


Posts: 1160
Joined: 2/4/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

I remember watching an interesting documentary on the Egyptian pyramids; detailing the precision of the building, materials etc. Given they were built 4,000 odd years ago it is pretty astonishing. That doesn't automatically mean I believe aliens helped them build it- 4,000 years is a long time for the construction techniques to get lost/forgotten. But when you see those things up close it truly is amazing that they were built so long ago, with no modern tools but they managed to get such accuracy/precision.

FYI, don't ask the Eygptian tour guide if aliens built the pyramids, you get a look that is equal parts contempt/stupefaction


One of my favourite "proofs" that we were visited and influenced by ancient astronauts is the pyramid argument. For those who don't know (and in this thread I doubt that is anyone, but for sake of completeness) it is the idea that because disparate cultures, separated by time and distance, all made pyramids there must have been some causal link between them: and that link can only be aliens.

However the truth is probably more mundane: a solution to an engineering problem.

The point of pyramids was to venerate the gods or to elevate men to the level of god. The way they did that was to make edifices that were so tall they were close to the gods. Even today being up high is a sign of status, which is why a penthouse apartment costs much more than a similar sized and equipped basement flat in a similar location.

Building up more than a few storeys is very difficult. You have the combined problems of stopping the structure falling over and stopping the structure collapsing in on itself as the weight of the materials pressing down at the bottom overwhelms structural integrity.

The pyramid is a perfect solution to both problems. The base is much wider than the top so it is very stable and as there is so much more material at the bottom of the structure the load is spread out so it won't collapse. Early and even modern skyscrapers still use this technique. Look at the Chrysler Building and The Shard, they are both basically pyramids: wide at the bottom and narrow at the top.

It is not really surprising that different cultures came up with similar solutions to the same problem. Ancient people were just as clever as we are: they had all the same faculties for problem solving we do. To believe they could only have achieved all they did with extra-terrestrial help is to do them a disservice.

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Post #: 430
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:15:15 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54616
Joined: 1/10/2005
I was watching a Japanese film recently about the building of one of the most impressive structures in Feudal Japan - multi-stories and considered nearly impossible. Because this is Japan we have the detailed records going back centuries that cover the work to design and to build. Without those, would that have seemed impossible without outside help? If the Shard is still standing after the world falls apart and centuries in the future our descendants have lost their histories - will the uniformity and design seem that gods or aliens must have created it too?

This is why the alien thing has always seemed quite silly to me, without actual evidence. These civilisations were making amazing empirical discoveries in medicine and science and somehow we don't also think that engineering was part of that too. Baffling.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 431
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:19:43 AM   
hubu_phonk


Posts: 1118
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From: between chit chat and analysis
^ what film is that elab? sounds up my street

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Post #: 432
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:31:40 AM   
elab49


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Joined: 1/10/2005
PM 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 433
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:36:14 AM   
hubu_phonk


Posts: 1118
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From: between chit chat and analysis

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

PM 


sugar sweet, cheers

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Post #: 434
RE: UFO and the media - 3/7/2012 11:45:29 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6288
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
It is not really surprising that different cultures came up with similar solutions to the same problem. Ancient people were just as clever as we are: they had all the same faculties for problem solving we do. To believe they could only have achieved all they did with extra-terrestrial help is to do them a disservice.


Indeed, as I said above the same science applies regardless of which part of the planet you live on!  This was one of Sagan's biggest concerns about the ancient astronaut theory; that it basically implied we were sitting in a cave banging rocks together until aliens showed us how to be civilised:

quote:


That writing as careless as von Däniken's, whose principal thesis is that our ancestors were dummies, should be so popular is a sober commentary on the credulousness and despair of our times. But the idea that beings from elsewhere will save us from ourselves is a very dangerous doctrine - akin to that of the quack doctor whose ministrations prevent the patient from seeing a physician competent to help him and perhaps to cure his disease. 


If you've absolutely got to buy into the theories of von Daniken and his ilk, then you at least owe it to yourself to take a balanced view and check out the other side of the argument.  Try some of Sagan's own writings, Ronald Story's "The Space Gods Revealed" (from where the above quote is taken) or Ronald Fritze's "Invented Knowledge".

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Post #: 435
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 4:59:25 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
CIA agent says Roswell did happen.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2170831/Roswell-UFO-landing-CIA-agent-Chase-Brandon-speaks-65th-anniversary.html

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Post #: 436
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 5:02:50 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12192
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

He says he will not reveal exactly what lay within the box that 'erased' his doubts about the Roswell incident.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2170831/Roswell-UFO-landing-CIA-agent-Chase-Brandon-speaks-65th-anniversary.html#ixzz208riXSW9


Oh come on!

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Post #: 437
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 5:08:08 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
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I know what a tease

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Post #: 438
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 6:09:10 PM   
Woger


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Post #: 439
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 6:19:31 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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Post #: 440
RE: UFO and the media - 9/7/2012 7:03:22 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
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http://www.chasebrandon.com/

Has worked for over forty years in the US intelligence community, Department of Defense and federal/state law enforcement organizations as a specialist in classic espionage operations and covert paramilitary activities.

He has lived and traveled abroad in over seventy countries, and as a senior operations officer, he has served a number of times as chief or deputy of Agency field installations.

Along the way he has made time to pursue his creative interests in art, to include public showings (in recent, stateside years) of his unique “junkanimation” sculpting/modeling motif (as featured in Popular Mechanics magazine), and in fiction writing, where he has co-written several screenplays, as well as his first novel The Cryptos Conundrum – a sci-fi, political conspiracy thriller about CIA’s cover-up of the Roswell UFO crash.

Hmmmmmm

"In his last assignment, Mr. Brandon was a senior officer on the CIA Director’s staff, serving as a Public Affairs spokesman and the Agency’s first-ever official liaison to the entertainment and publication industries."

Hmmmmmmm

Methinks someone is doing a nice bit of PR for themselves.

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RE: UFO and the media - 10/7/2012 7:40:51 AM   
Titanm21


Posts: 1177
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From: The Womb
http://boingboing.net/2012/04/10/mirage-men-documentary-about.html

I read this book a while back, interesting stuff and does a good job of explaining how a government can us UFO lore to hide its own agenda (e.g Stealth Fighter)

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Post #: 442
RE: UFO and the media - 10/7/2012 12:41:02 PM   
great_badir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanm21
http://boingboing.net/2012/04/10/mirage-men-documentary-about.html

I read this book a while back, interesting stuff and does a good job of explaining how a government can us UFO lore to hide its own agenda (e.g Stealth Fighter)


Whilst I don't believe for one second that the US government actually created the UFO myth (as has been suggested by numerous people over the years), I can totally believe (and have said so several times in this and other threads) that they probably often propogate and actively encourage the myth to gloss over otherwise very real world weapons and vehicle testing - I've no doubt that they are completely happy to hear about people reporting sightings of alien aircraft after testing the latest pilotless stealth aircraft. To me that is far more logical an explanation to 75% of sightings than grey beings with big eyes from Venus or something, with the remaining 25% attributable to nature, weather and atmospheric conditions.

There is certainly proof that new planes being built at Area 51/Groom Lake in the 50s which were tested for a decade before being "revealed" to the world in the 70s drew numerous reports of sightings, none of which the government played down until those planes were in active service.

It's naiive to think that that sort of thing still isn't happening.

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Post #: 443
RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 11:15:00 AM   
Titanm21


Posts: 1177
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From: The Womb
I agree Badir, I've studied UFO's since i was in my early teens, I'm a believer in aliens and that they visit our Planet BUT i've come to my own conclusion that 95% of it is lies, misinformation, mistakes, and weather. but there is about 5% to me that says that not only do aliens exist but they are here visiting us for some study (like how we study animals on our own planet).

Trouble being is that the waters are so muddy over the subject from bull shit from the True Believers (the nut fringe) or from the other side of the fence who just shoot everything down without stepping back. For me i'm more middle ground, there is a lot of it that's utter tosh but some of it that's golden.

My point being that its not all black and white and certain individuals, corporations and governments use the UFO subject for their own agenda and in turn this makes a messy subject messier.



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RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 2:15:57 PM   
The Big Guy


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I have a question. Do the people here who believe carte blanche in ancient astronauts and suchlike also find time to mock Christians and other religions for their beliefs? I cannot help but think that there may be a double standard there somehow.

In addition, this thread is mindboggling. I do not know quite where to start with it, with regards to commenting on it.

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Post #: 445
RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 3:01:52 PM   
kata


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Post #: 446
RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 6:21:46 PM   
Titanm21


Posts: 1177
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From: The Womb

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Big Guy

I have a question. Do the people here who believe carte blanche in ancient astronauts and suchlike also find time to mock Christians and other religions for their beliefs? I cannot help but think that there may be a double standard there somehow.

In addition, this thread is mindboggling. I do not know quite where to start with it, with regards to commenting on it.


In short... no.

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RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 6:29:16 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Big Guy

In addition, this thread is mindboggling. I do not know quite where to start with it, with regards to commenting on it.


One day you'll be mocking us sat at your PC and this will happen





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Post #: 448
RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 6:36:05 PM   
great_badir


Posts: 4662
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From: A breaking rope bridge in the middle of the jungle
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Big Guy

I have a question. Do the people here who believe carte blanche in ancient astronauts and suchlike also find time to mock Christians and other religions for their beliefs? I cannot help but think that there may be a double standard there somehow.


That's me safe then, cos I think it's ALL bollocks.

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(in reply to The Big Guy)
Post #: 449
RE: UFO and the media - 11/7/2012 6:40:34 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: great_badir

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Big Guy

I have a question. Do the people here who believe carte blanche in ancient astronauts and suchlike also find time to mock Christians and other religions for their beliefs? I cannot help but think that there may be a double standard there somehow.


That's me safe then, cos I think it's ALL bollocks.


One day you'll be doing a spot of DIY thinking it's all bollocks and this will happen


(in reply to great_badir)
Post #: 450
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