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Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 8:43:22 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

So there are a few of us in Review Thread who want to talk about the film having now seen it. As most of us would say it is a "Favorite Film" I thought we could have a more indepth and spoiler thread in here for those wanting to talk about it without blanking out, and being broken up with others wanting to review the movie.

So beware this is a post release thread. There will be spoilers.

I have three theories at the moment -

The Literal Sense

1. It all plays out as literally seen on screen. What is the biggest surprise for me was how straightforwrd the surface narrative was. There was no big twist. No mastermind behind it all. It needed that in order to express the ideas of dream inception and extraction. However there are too many moments that occur in the "real" world that don't quite fit. There is a line Cobb has about how things seem real until you wake up and think about them. This holds true here.

- The entire Morocco sequence. We just jump mid scene into a conversation between Cobb and Tom Hardy's character. Agents of some company are already sitting there. Remember what Cobb said about remembering how in a dream you never remember how you get to a location? Cobb runs from goons from a "Company" (which I am sure kinda sounded a little like Cobb), and then there is that alley, the walls literally closing in. And then suddenly Watanabe shows up. It works as a dream, but is awfully contrived in the real world.

- Cobbs kids. At the end we see that they are still the same age, and wearing the same clothes and sitting in the same postion. That's a massive clue that this is a dream.

This leads me to two possibilities -

2. The Inception is actully for Cobb.

- The team are not targeting Cillian Murphy - he and his father are constructs built by the team trying to Incept an idea - thats Cobbs wives death was not his fault - and breakdown the traps he had built into his mind. The dradal was never his wives. Much like the Last WIll and Testement, it was simply the thing used to bring on catharsis. The team establish the rules though Murphy's character, in order to allow Cobb to realise that it is a dream. Much as Cobb tells Murphy at the bar.

- In this theory the dream equipement and team are real. It is just the whole movie is misdirection - at the start we see a failed attempt at Inception with the old Wanatabe before moving onto the next attempt. Thw whole film was within Cobb.

- However the technology seems awfull mcguffinseque - no one seems that shocked that it exists. Heck, even the air hostess knows how to operate it - which is a big clue that

3. There is no Team

- The whole movie is Cobb implanting an idea into his own subconcious. It seems apparant that his wife likely did commit sucicide - but not a sci-fi suicide. He dreams of getting old with her, but suicide continually plays into the dreams. The whole movie is then about Cobb constructing a world, with this magical machine, and these people who causually know how to work it, as a way of working through his own pain. The old Wantanbe at the start suggests that this is a recurring dream, but we are watching the one where Cobb has a breakthrough.
So that is where I am at the moment. Don't know if anyone else has a different interpetation or want to call mine shite. Feel free!

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 16/7/2010 8:45:03 PM >

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

Post #: 1

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 9:00:06 PM

demoncleaner

Posts: 2176
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

I think that's a bit Shutter Island for this movie

SPOILERS**** (This is the last time I'm going to use spoiler tags or invisio...I think people should KNOW NOT TO READ UNLESS HAVING SEEN IT)

Aside from all the ultra-perceptiveness we might invest in what happened in the film I think that the final shot is pretty much a "well-duh, you're meant to be suspicious about the last reality".

IF we were to presume the end is a dream I think its as simple an issue as: Dom is still lost in the limbo he went into to save Sato, only he has settled for a preferable fantasy to while out his time there. Hence the too good to be true ending. I personally don't think its more complex than that. Hence Inception 2: The Search for Cobb

END SPOILERS

_____________________________

"I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit."

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 2

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 9:09:10 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Yeah, no more hiding the text away.YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Well the Shutter Island comparisons are interesting.

I don't think "its all a dream!" is really all that dissappointing for this film. The arc is about Cobb making a breakthrough with regard to his wife. That is what the film is about. The planting of an idea is the whole Cillian Murphy thing. Notice that it is the characters around Cobb help him formulate the idea of a breakthrough in the relationship between the Fischers. We are told that a person must believe the idea came from themselves rather than inserted by force.

He can't allow his own subconcious to know what he is doing and so builds in his mind this whole story which gives him the function to make the breakthrough at the end.

And as I said, no way is there is a sequel. It would give us these answers, and who really wants that?

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to demoncleaner)

Post #: 3

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 10:20:21 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner

Aside from all the ultra-perceptiveness we might invest in what happened in the film I think that the final shot is pretty much�a "well-duh, you're meant to be suspicious about the last reality".�
�
END SPOILERS

My initial feeling was this. I saw it as little more than a bit of a nudge/gag, but the more I've thought about it, the more I'm leaning to RG's third theory. I'm seeing the film again tomorrow, which should cement which way I'm going, but I think that there is a line read by one character that leads me to think that there is that extra layer, be it induced by the "dream invaders", or solely in the mind of Cobb.

(in reply to demoncleaner)

Post #: 4

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 10:24:24 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

I don't see a sequel happening. I don't think that Nolan would want to get himself further into sequel/franchise territory what, with Batman and everything. I have to admit, that in spite of how much I love the Nolan Bat-flicks, I can't help but feel he's wasting his talent on them. I only mean to the extent that its preventing him from working on such creative and staggering work like Inception, as I don't thin that he could be as bold with the Batman franchise. Don't get me wrong, I'm dying to see Bat3, but can't help but think what he could be doing with his time. I felt the same about Del Toro tackling The Hobbit, as I would rather see him take on his own ideas.

(in reply to adambatman82)

Post #: 5

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 16/7/2010 11:07:15 PM

demoncleaner

Posts: 2176
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

It made me want to go away and watch The Dark Knight again. I think the moment the shutter pulls back on the truck in TDK is a moment that soundly beats anything in Inception. I realise that's unfair to Inception since we've established its more theoretically exciting than it is an in-your-face action thriller...but still, you want some sort bravura. I'm happy to give up on the idea of a sequel...it doesn't mean that much to me. But I think it would be a waste if something didn't happen with it because it felt like we got episode one of Band of Brothers, and now we want D-Day. It was like we were behind highschool desks with an instructor pointing at maps and telling what Inception was. Getting back to an unnecessary comparison with The Dark Knight, I think Chris Corbould's work on TDK put to shame the naffness of his Bond tribute at the end of this. I thought the ski resort segment was slightly awful, in many, recurring places. But on the other hand there was much to like here. I loved Tom Hardy, Page and DiCaprio were already in my Pantheon of bankable personages. Joseph Gordon Levitt also earned fan status from me (never liked him before - I was one of the few people that thought Brick was precocious smug balls). If you've seen me post you'll know I'm extremely eclectic and I embrace world cinema but for fucks sake, if you're going to employ either Ken Watanabe and Marion Cotillard in English speaking roles, pay for some elocution lessons for them because I cannot hear a bloody word they say half the time.

_____________________________

"I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit."

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Post #: 6

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 2:52:34 AM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

I think the film literally plays out as a dream in real time. Most dreams last about ten minutes - if 5 real minutes = 60 dream minutes, then it pretty much fits the timescale of the movie. All the cuts in the film are from the dreamer. Everything in the movie is in real time.

Remember the whole deal about remembering how you got here? No one comments on why they are being chased at the start, why the have Wantanbe, what they are using him for, who the Kobol Corportation (this must be a BSG reference btw) was or how and why the machine works. We simply accept all of this.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to demoncleaner)

Post #: 7

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 9:38:23 AM

Blue Ryan

Posts: 185
Joined: 31/7/2008

Rgirvan44
Your 3 ideas at the top are actaully really interesting and i'm looking forward to going back to watch the film again so i can analyse whether your right. In terms of a sequel, i think that many would argue it would be a bad idea because it would naswer the questions that don't need answering however, this is Nolan we are talking about and he is yet to fuck up a film. It's unlikely that he would fuck up a universe that his mind has created. Also note that when Hardy gets a grenade launcher a says to Levitt "Don't be afraid to dream a little bigger", Nolan is saying to Hollywood in an age of reboots, remakes and franchises, make films a little more unique. That's what he's done. Dreamed bigger

Keep up the theories guys i love em

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 8

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 10:40:29 AM

HIM

Posts: 9687
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

As soon as the credits rolled I was firmly of the opinion that Cobb was still dreaming. Not only because of the obvious things like how his children were in the same position and hadn't aged but also because of the more subtle scenes. As Rgirvan mentioned, the scenes that started 'mid-scene' so to speak. How did the characters get there? In a dream you never know. Also, the bit where Cobb is seemingly being trapped by the walls closing in on him. During this scene I remember thinking, 'Surely this is a dream?' So for me, the whole film is being played out in Cobb's mind and I'd lean more to the theory that none of the team is real and all are simply parts of Cobb's subconscious.

I think that that is the 'twist' of this film. I was expecting the rug to be pulled out from under me all throughout this film, just like Memento or The Prestige, but I was surprised at how straight forward and easy it was to follow for such a convoluted narrative. This is testament to Nolan's genius, the fact that never for one second are you confused or unable to follow which 'reality' or dream sequence you're currently watching, And I also like how the twist isn't rammed home to the viewer and it's left pretty ambiguous. If you believe that Cobb is actually back in the US with his kids there is really nothing in the film that contradicts this. You can take away from this film anything you want and it won't be wrong. Simply amazing film making.

(in reply to Blue Ryan)

Post #: 9

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 11:28:27 AM

demoncleaner

Posts: 2176
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast

I think the team are real. The question, I supppose, is whether we consider them to be complex characters? Too complex in other words to be mere projections that he's able to sustain throughout. If they're not actually there then you'd definitely have to suppose I think, that he's known the team really well in the past. And on a professional basis since these projections (which I personally don't think they are) are pretty slick in their own area of expertise, and there's no trust issues. That's probably important when you consider the chemist who is introduced to Cobb. You would imagine that if he was a projection, then someone new might upset the confidence of the subconcious and that projection would likely act in an adverse way to the team, or the mission. Especially after the defection of Lukas Haas' character. Some neurosis would manifest for someone new and leak through I think. So I don't think the chemist is a projection. Much is made of the fact that Fischer has deep-seated issues that make him too complicated to be a sustainable projection. Like-wise, Cobb would have to dream up Eames and his ability to impersonate another character like Berenger's. Eames is a character who has the most idiom, and he's got a wit that Cobb doesn't share. Again, evidence of a complex character. I understand Mal is a fictional construct who's incredibly complex. But that's because he has known her so well in reality. She is still obviously a volatile thing.

The others is just too much for Cobb to sustain on his own. He's obviously got the power of invention, but I think sustainability is more the issue.

I agree that there's some aspects of Arthur that are a bit too perfect as his right hand man. And there's definitely something too neat about Page's Ariadne - the name itself almost being a real totem. Too obvious to be just a "nod" from Nolan to inspiration. There's something there that could suggest those two could be projections, if that's the extent of theory we're prepared to make.

I totally agree that there's an abundance of indicators to suggest the waking world is not real. I'm not saying that that's not a dream - but I think all the characters would have to be very real and known to Cobb in some corner of reality. I think its quite cheeky of Nolan that he has Macguffin all over the shop, but gets to wryly suggest that these are not shortcomings, but evidence of the frailty of this whole reality. That's genius. But cheeky. I also think that the dream sharing device is pure Macguffin. Plus the fact that when they are in one stage of a dream the device is there to take them to the next level. Which suggests that the device is simply a symbolic token (itself a kind of totem) that allows entry into the different levels of the subconscious. I would actually be prepared to go along with the idea that the device itself simply does not exist, and all this dream architecture is done without the aid of any equipment. Such as the free-form method that Dom and Mal had on their bedroom floor.

I also shy away from the idea that Cobb has deceived himself in such an elaborate fashion. Or is capable of deceiving himself to such an extent. I think the last scene definitely hints that this closure is a delusion. But I think that is a recent delusion from limbo. I don't think that has to suggest that its ALL been a dream. I think in the upper levels of the subconscious every one is extremely lucid about the fact that they're in a dream. You can definitely seek to con others whilst there, and succeed, but I definitely, definitely don't think self-delusion is on the table here at all. Self delusion in limbo yes, but not in the upper levels. Even Cobb is conscious of the fact that Mal doesn't exist and his imprisonment of her in his psyche is cogniscent. He doesn't go there to get lost in the idea she's still around. He perhaps flirts with the grief, but he's always aware this is a construct of his own making.

I'm still completely open to the fact that there could be a major and fundamental deception going on. But I think that would have to be from the other team members using him. I don't like the idea that he's doing it to himself however, and I don't think that was a possibility that the film necessarily wanted us to consider. (Not until we get to limbo of course).

As I say, I shy away from the notion of self-delusion because this is what separates this in originality from Shutter Island. And that's obviously deeply important to Nolan who knows he's got a major comparator to that film by dint of his star and the proximity of release of the two films. (Thinking about this yesterday, I'm very lucid about the fact that Shutter Island is a better film by the way

. Its a film that knows how to enjoy itself and still be all glum and down in the mouth on the surface for dramatic purposes. One thing that slightly nagged me about Inception was the sense of its own seriousness. Take me vwery, vwery seriously it glowered a bit too often for my liking. Anyhoo, all of that is neither here nor there. We're discussing Inception, I know).

It is genuinely, a quality film that can offer discussion to this extent. Now that I've slept on it, I think I've added another star with a 5th one no doubt in the post when I see it again on Wednesday.

< Message edited by demoncleaner -- 17/7/2010 11:49:12 AM >

_____________________________

"I know the meaning of life, it doesn't help me a bit."

(in reply to HIM)

Post #: 10

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 11:42:43 AM

DAVID GILLESPIE

Posts: 2883
Joined: 27/2/2007
From: Glasgow

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So there are a few of us in Review Thread who want to talk about the film having now seen it. As most of us would say it is a "Favorite Film" I thought we could have a more indepth and spoiler thread in here for those wanting to talk about it without blanking out, and being broken up with others wanting to review the movie.

So beware this is a post release thread. There will be spoilers.

I have three theories at the moment -

The Literal Sense

1. It all plays out as literally seen on screen. What is the biggest surprise for me was how straightforwrd the surface narrative was. There was no big twist. No mastermind behind it all. It needed that in order to express the ideas of dream inception and extraction. However there are too many moments that occur in the "real" world that don't quite fit. There is a line Cobb has about how things seem real until you wake up and think about them. This holds true here.

- The entire Morocco sequence. We just jump mid scene into a conversation between Cobb and Tom Hardy's character. Agents of some company are already sitting there. Remember what Cobb said about remembering how in a dream you never remember how you get to a location? Cobb runs from goons from a "Company" (which I am sure kinda sounded a little like Cobb), and then there is that alley, the walls literally closing in. And then suddenly Watanabe shows up. It works as a dream, but is awfully contrived in the real world.

- Cobbs kids. At the end we see that they are still the same age, and wearing the same clothes and sitting in the same postion. That's a massive clue that this is a dream.

This leads me to two possibilities -

2. The Inception is actully for Cobb.

- The team are not targeting Cillian Murphy - he and his father are constructs built by the team trying to Incept an idea - thats Cobbs wives death was not his fault - and breakdown the traps he had built into his mind. The dradal was never his wives. Much like the Last WIll and Testement, it was simply the thing used to bring on catharsis. The team establish the rules though Murphy's character, in order to allow Cobb to realise that it is a dream. Much as Cobb tells Murphy at the bar.

- In this theory the dream equipement and team are real. It is just the whole movie is misdirection - at the start we see a failed attempt at Inception with the old Wanatabe before moving onto the next attempt. Thw whole film was within Cobb.

- However the technology seems awfull mcguffinseque - no one seems that shocked that it exists. Heck, even the air hostess knows how to operate it - which is a big clue that

3. There is no Team

- The whole movie is Cobb implanting an idea into his own subconcious. It seems apparant that his wife likely did commit sucicide - but not a sci-fi suicide. He dreams of getting old with her, but suicide continually plays into the dreams. The whole movie is then about Cobb constructing a world, with this magical machine, and these people who causually know how to work it, as a way of working through his own pain. The old Wantanbe at the start suggests that this is a recurring dream, but we are watching the one where Cobb has a breakthrough.
So that is where I am at the moment. Don't know if anyone else has a different interpetation or want to call mine shite. Feel free!

I have just watched this movie, read your synopsis and think you should write scripts. Also can you sell me some of the Pineapple Express that you've got and how much a kilo?

_____________________________

Cludge Judge * Cold Fish

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Post #: 11

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 11:49:12 AM

Azm

Posts: 1
Joined: 17/7/2010

Just saw it....great film.

Has anyone here ever read any jean baudrillard specifically simulacra and simulacrum?

To me this film seems like a really good expression of baudrillards idea of simulation in society.

The difference between simulation and faking/acting/pretending is basically this:

You don't want to go to school today.

So you fake being sick. You pretend you are sick and just lie. (pretending)

Or you intentionally produce the symptoms of being sick within yourself. So therefore you are actually sick. (simulation)

Anyways baudrillard says that we simulate all the time. The simulation becomes more real than reality itself. He calls this the hyper-real. The point is were so lost in our simulations that the simulation itself is real.

The dreams in the movie are essentially equivalent to simulations. The characters are able to project what they see in dreams just like the simulator is able to produce the symptoms of being sick when he or she doesn't want to go to school.

At the end of the movie, it's a dream - but it's also real or what baudrillard would call hyper-real.

The movie basically says the line is blurry between dreams and reality but I think the deeper meaning to it all is not dreams but baudrillards theory of simulacra which really is a theory on the current human condition and how empty the world really is.

Anyways I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying. Kinda hard to explain what I'm talking about ...�

< Message edited by Azm -- 17/7/2010 11:55:43 AM >

(in reply to demoncleaner)

Post #: 12

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 12:52:00 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

I'm seeing it again this afternoon. Will watch with the stuff I have come up with in mind. I think going in knowing the rules going in will shift how you see the film.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Azm)

Post #: 13

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 4:36:24 PM

Blue Ryan

Posts: 185
Joined: 31/7/2008

Very impressed by demoncleaner's insight and it also got me thinking. In the scene where Cobb visits his father (Caine), Caine says to Dom "Come back to reality Dom". This could support a number of theories at present such as the "Dom is being incepted" whereby his father knows the team are about to work on him but he gives it one last attempt to bring him back to reality. It could also support the theory of where the lines in reality and subconcious actually are.

Gotta love these theories

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 14

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 8:32:50 PM

krudler

Posts: 7018
Joined: 30/9/2005

Saw it a few hours ago, loved it, the sequence between the van chase, zero-g fight and the Bond sequence is fucking awesome, there were a few gasps from the audience I saw it with when the van rolled down the hill and the hotel corridor changed, the way Levitt had to steady himself while running along a rotating wall then having a seamless fight with the other guy with no obvious cgi or wirework was astounding.

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Post #: 15

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 9:13:49 PM

homersimpson_esq

Posts: 19969
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

My sorta review. Albeit, a review that is spoiler-free. I'll do a deeper analysis when I see it again.

How does one top one of the highest grossing films of all time, in a career that epitomises high-concept-high-quality? How does one, when given an obscene amount of money, craft a film that is not only ridiculously entertaining, but also jaw-droppingly visually stunning, and intrinsically intelligent as well? Christopher Nolan has the answer, and its name is Inception.

It is both impossible and redundant to try and explain the story. (The nearest I can do is a literary analogy that casts the dreams as a thought in parentheses.) Instead it is better to focus on the surrounding ephemera of this dream-based, intelli-thriller. With a stellar cast (DiCaprio, Cotillard, Caine, Hardy, Berenger, Murphy, Gordon-Levitt) Nolan shows he has the necessary clout to make such assured large-scale films. And yet, despite the broad canvas, why is it that Inception still feels intimate, and personal? How can Nolan retain his own personal directorial stamp over a multi-million-dollar budget? It's almost as if Warner Bros, in a fit of delirium after checking the The Dark Knight box office takings once more, giggled like a schoolgirl and threw money at Nolan, saying, 'will you be my boyfriend?' before running back to her friends. A more cynical fellow might surmise that Hypothetical Batman Three is a better reason for giving carte blanche to Nolan. Either way, it matters very little: the end result is of such a ridiculously high quality, it feels unoriginal to rave about it.

The structure of Inception means that you really, really need to concentrate. (No toilet breaks, for instance. Eleven years ago, when The Matrix was released, I made the mistake of not going to the toilet before hand. Half way through, I desperately needed to go, but didn't want to leave. Long story short, by the end of the film I was doubled in agony, and hobbled out, having missed most of the second half on account of checking my watch every two minutes. (I went back to see it again a week later, and lo, a neurosis was born.)

Actually, The Matrix is a fine film against which to compare Inception. 'Game-changing' in its day, with the (now fairly defunct through spoofing) 'bullet time' a technological marvel. Using camera-work over CGI created a far superior visual effect. Similarly, Inception uses reality where possible, resorting to CGI where absolutely necessary. (And, it should be noted, to phenomenal effect.) Where Inception trumps The Matrix is that, as well as the melding of action-explosions and reality-bending mind games (they are both 'intelli-thrillers', in my word) Inception has a cast with considerably more clout. And, with this cast, Nolan is able to provide a far more indelible image of an imprinted world that he has created. He is the architect of this dream, and his subconscious are this amazing cast.

(As an interesting side-comment, DiCaprio has, with Shutter Island and Inception, finally come of age. Before these two films, DiCaprio has struggled to look older than 25 and while this may be considered desirable by many, it has prevented DiCaprio from maturing as a believable character actor: a role he so clearly wants, above and beyond the movie-star good looks that got him his big break in Cameron's 1997 box-office bonanza, Titanic. Yet here, his face is weathered, and his eyes betray an age and wisdom that are both a long-time coming, and particularly apt for this particular film. His talents as an actor are great, but they have often been filtered through the baby-face movie-star image, and consequently he's perhaps not been taken seriously enough as an actor as he should have. After all, he was nominated for an Academy Award for a very early film, alongside Johnny Depp. (Interestingly enough, between Nolan, DiCaprio, and Depp, they are variously responsible for three of the four top-grossing films of all time.) Additionally, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, appearing in a Nolan film, will stoke the rumours that he might appear in Hypothetical Batman Three: a decision that this reviewer would heartily endorse.)

Inception then, is a film that is very hard to discuss. One can talk around it, and talk through it, but, to paraphrase that afore-mentioned intelli-thriller, unfortunately no one can be told what Inception is. You have to see it for yourself. It is a film that is long, but which speeds by; that is action-packed, but which massages the little grey cells; that will take your perception, and invert them, twist them, and confuse them, unless you concentrate utterly. It's a film whose scenes are like parentheses within parentheses.)

Like I say: you really, really need to concentrate.

_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.

TREK WARS

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Post #: 16

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 9:19:22 PM

juanvasquez

Posts: 7435
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: The cupboard under the stairs

Just got back from seeing this and I was absolutely blown away.

Story aside, the action set pieces and effects were mesmerising. I know the word awesome is used a lot these days, but this really is. If my jaw wasn't dangling by the trampled popcorn, then I head a huge grin on face at just how amazing the action in this film is.

The van being run off the road, and then with it backing off the bridge... The whole weightless section in the hotel was awesome. So expertly done. It was brilliant. Just stunning.

As for the story, again, brilliant. Won't go into much, but I like to think everything that happened, happened, up until Cobb went after Watanabe's character in Limbo. The closing scene was probably his way of being able face his family after feeling responsible for his wife's death and then getting closure from it.

Either way, fucking brilliant, and if it's still at the IMAX in few weeks time, I will be going to see it there.

< Message edited by juanvasquez -- 17/7/2010 10:58:04 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 10:20:44 PM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So there are a few of us in Review Thread who want to talk about the film having now seen it. As most of us would say it is a "Favorite Film" I thought we could have a more indepth and spoiler thread in here for those wanting to talk about it without blanking out, and being broken up with others wanting to review the movie.

So beware this is a post release thread. There will be spoilers.

I have three theories at the moment -

The Literal Sense

1. It all plays out as literally seen on screen. What is the biggest surprise for me was how straightforwrd the surface narrative was. There was no big twist. No mastermind behind it all. It needed that in order to express the ideas of dream inception and extraction. However there are too many moments that occur in the "real" world that don't quite fit. There is a line Cobb has about how things seem real until you wake up and think about them. This holds true here.

- The entire Morocco sequence. We just jump mid scene into a conversation between Cobb and Tom Hardy's character. Agents of some company are already sitting there. Remember what Cobb said about remembering how in a dream you never remember how you get to a location? Cobb runs from goons from a "Company" (which I am sure kinda sounded a little like Cobb), and then there is that alley, the walls literally closing in. And then suddenly Watanabe shows up. It works as a dream, but is awfully contrived in the real world.

- Cobbs kids. At the end we see that they are still the same age, and wearing the same clothes and sitting in the same postion. That's a massive clue that this is a dream.

This leads me to two possibilities -

2. The Inception is actully for Cobb.

- The team are not targeting Cillian Murphy - he and his father are constructs built by the team trying to Incept an idea - thats Cobbs wives death was not his fault - and breakdown the traps he had built into his mind. The dradal was never his wives. Much like the Last WIll and Testement, it was simply the thing used to bring on catharsis. The team establish the rules though Murphy's character, in order to allow Cobb to realise that it is a dream. Much as Cobb tells Murphy at the bar.

- In this theory the dream equipement and team are real. It is just the whole movie is misdirection - at the start we see a failed attempt at Inception with the old Wanatabe before moving onto the next attempt. Thw whole film was within Cobb.

- However the technology seems awfull mcguffinseque - no one seems that shocked that it exists. Heck, even the air hostess knows how to operate it - which is a big clue that

3. There is no Team

- The whole movie is Cobb implanting an idea into his own subconcious. It seems apparant that his wife likely did commit sucicide - but not a sci-fi suicide. He dreams of getting old with her, but suicide continually plays into the dreams. The whole movie is then about Cobb constructing a world, with this magical machine, and these people who causually know how to work it, as a way of working through his own pain. The old Wantanbe at the start suggests that this is a recurring dream, but we are watching the one where Cobb has a breakthrough.
So that is where I am at the moment. Don't know if anyone else has a different interpetation or want to call mine shite. Feel free!

quote:

So there are a few of us in Review Thread who want to talk about the film having now seen it. As most of us would say it is a "Favorite Film" I thought we could have a more indepth and spoiler thread in here for those wanting to talk about it without blanking out, and being broken up with others wanting to review the movie.

So beware this is a post release thread. There will be spoilers.

I have three theories at the moment -

The Literal Sense

1. It all plays out as literally seen on screen. What is the biggest surprise for me was how straightforwrd the surface narrative was. There was no big twist. No mastermind behind it all. It needed that in order to express the ideas of dream inception and extraction. However there are too many moments that occur in the "real" world that don't quite fit. There is a line Cobb has about how things seem real until you wake up and think about them. This holds true here.

- The entire Morocco sequence. We just jump mid scene into a conversation between Cobb and Tom Hardy's character. Agents of some company are already sitting there. Remember what Cobb said about remembering how in a dream you never remember how you get to a location? Cobb runs from goons from a "Company" (which I am sure kinda sounded a little like Cobb), and then there is that alley, the walls literally closing in. And then suddenly Watanabe shows up. It works as a dream, but is awfully contrived in the real world.

- Cobbs kids. At the end we see that they are still the same age, and wearing the same clothes and sitting in the same postion. That's a massive clue that this is a dream.

This leads me to two possibilities -

2. The Inception is actully for Cobb.

- The team are not targeting Cillian Murphy - he and his father are constructs built by the team trying to Incept an idea - thats Cobbs wives death was not his fault - and breakdown the traps he had built into his mind. The dradal was never his wives. Much like the Last WIll and Testement, it was simply the thing used to bring on catharsis. The team establish the rules though Murphy's character, in order to allow Cobb to realise that it is a dream. Much as Cobb tells Murphy at the bar.

- In this theory the dream equipement and team are real. It is just the whole movie is misdirection - at the start we see a failed attempt at Inception with the old Wanatabe before moving onto the next attempt. Thw whole film was within Cobb.

- However the technology seems awfull mcguffinseque - no one seems that shocked that it exists. Heck, even the air hostess knows how to operate it - which is a big clue that

3. There is no Team

- The whole movie is Cobb implanting an idea into his own subconcious. It seems apparant that his wife likely did commit sucicide - but not a sci-fi suicide. He dreams of getting old with her, but suicide continually plays into the dreams. The whole movie is then about Cobb constructing a world, with this magical machine, and these people who causually know how to work it, as a way of working through his own pain. The old Wantanbe at the start suggests that this is a recurring dream, but we are watching the one where Cobb has a breakthrough.
So that is where I am at the moment. Don't know if anyone else has a different interpetation or want to call mine shite. Feel free!

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 16/7/2010 8:45:03 PM >

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[SPOILERS]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The problem is,all of your points have merit!It's that kind of film.
Does it even start at the end,or end at the begining??Or is the end the actual begining?
How do you explain/understand Cobb's wife-where he says he was responsible for her death,as to get her out of limbo,he convinced her it wasn't real,but when she returned to reality,she didn't accept reality was real?
This doesn'ts fit with a simple suicide.
Just on your points:
(1)I don't think it was as we seen played out.Many films have scenes where one scene jumps to another without any real connection-that point could absolutely melt your head in terms of making an analysis of this film.
The kids at the end IS a strange one,but it gives credence to a number of different opinions-but do we have a real timeframe on when his wife actually died?So they could be the same age depending on how long his dream,if it is that,took?But if it was a dream,how could he return to the exact time-why not then return to an earlier time to save his wife?Maybe his wife didn't die as he said at all,and was dead a lot longer?

(2)He actually does succeed with the old Watanabe,in the end.Are these two scenes not bookends of all that goes on in the middle?
As for the catharsis,did Cobb need to go that far to get this for another person if it was really for himself?At one point,there is "reality",3 dreams and a Limbo going on!
(3)But Cobb DID construct the perfect world,and he ended it.Watanabe at the start was Watanabe at the end???

What a film!!!!

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Post #: 18

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 10:32:10 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

I don't think the scene at the start and end with old man Wantanabe were bookends. I have dreamed thw same dream twice before - with slight differences. I think it is a recurring dream - only in the full version we see there is a fundamental change in how ends.

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Post #: 19

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 10:55:21 PM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

I dunno.
It is almost exactly the same scene,but also like the latter scene is a continuance of the first scene???
I'll have to see this again-i thought Shutter Island was difficult to untangle-this is a whole new level!

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Post #: 20

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 17/7/2010 11:02:20 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOHEMIANBOB

I dunno.
It is almost exactly the same scene,but also like the latter scene is a continuance of the first scene???
I'll have to see this again-i thought Shutter Island was difficult to untangle-this is a whole new level!

They are different. Edited differently, and are slightly changed. It is not the same sequence repeated exactly.

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Post #: 21

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 12:34:53 AM

talpacino

Posts: 3643
Joined: 15/11/2005
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I was surprised at myself how easy I followed this up until one point and then I kind of lost it, so I'm hoping someone here can explain it.
After Cillian Murphy's character was shot and killed, Di Caprio says that's it, they've failed and then Ellen Page comes up with an idea that will allow them to complete the mission. I didn't quite get what she said, what happened here? It just seemed that DiCaprio and Ellen Page went one dream deeper but then they went in to Limbo where Mal, Fischer and Saito were?? Did I miss something, what happened here, how does this work?

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Post #: 22

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 1:36:46 AM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

I think.and i stress think,the point was made that they couldn't wake up under normal circumstances(slap in the face,water etc)-they were in a deep induced sleep.
This meant it was dangerous to die in these dreams where normally,they'd just wake up.
As you couldn't physically die in your dreams you weren't dead-however,if you were "killed" in such circumstances,you went into Limbo,which has an infinite timescale.
It was harder to get back from here,but it was the only option to go into this,as physically,when you would awake,your brain would be fried from the infinite subconscious years of the various tortures of Limbo.
But Leo's character had apparently already been there and gotten out,but couldn't get his wife out,without resorting to drastic techniques which didn't work anyway.

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Post #: 23

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 1:39:29 AM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOHEMIANBOB

I dunno.
It is almost exactly the same scene,but also like the latter scene is a continuance of the first scene???
I'll have to see this again-i thought Shutter Island was difficult to untangle-this is a whole new level!

They are different. Edited differently, and are slightly changed. It is not the same sequence repeated exactly.

Jeepers,when do we draw a line between "edited" and what we were supposed to believe/question what we actually saw??
I did say it isn't the same scene,but a continuance of what looks to be the original scene,which if it is,affects yuor interpretation of the whole film.
I do need to see this again

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Post #: 24

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 1:45:11 AM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

quote:

ORIGINAL: juanvasquez

Just got back from seeing this and I was absolutely blown away.

Story aside, the action set pieces and effects were mesmerising. I know the word awesome is used a lot these days, but this really is. If my jaw wasn't dangling by the trampled popcorn, then I head a huge grin on face at just how amazing the action in this film is.

The van being run off the road, and then with it backing off the bridge... The whole weightless section in the hotel was awesome. So expertly done. It was brilliant. Just stunning.

As for the story, again, brilliant. Won't go into much, but I like to think everything that happened, happened, up until Cobb went after Watanabe's character in Limbo. The closing scene was probably his way of being able face his family after feeling responsible for his wife's death and then getting closure from it.

Either way, fucking brilliant, and if it's still at the IMAX in few weeks time, I will be going to see it there.

This is a key question to the whole film.
Watanabe's character did die in the dream in a dream in dream(the snow)?
This means Leo would have to pursue him into Limbo(for him to fulfill his promise) as he was under the heavy sedation that meant he wouldn't wake up.
Therefore,the whole Inception ruse was real-why and how could he invent the Watanabe character and have to pursue him to somewhere he may never escape??

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RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 1:49:21 AM

BOHEMIANBOB

Posts: 1884
Joined: 31/1/2010
From: Dublin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Azm

Just saw it....great film.

Has anyone here ever read any jean baudrillard specifically simulacra and simulacrum?

To me this film seems like a really good expression of baudrillards idea of simulation in society.

The difference between simulation and faking/acting/pretending is basically this:

You don't want to go to school today.

So you fake being sick. You pretend you are sick and just lie. (pretending)

Or you intentionally produce the symptoms of being sick within yourself. So therefore you are actually sick. (simulation)

Anyways baudrillard says that we simulate all the time. The simulation becomes more real than reality itself. He calls this the hyper-real. The point is were so lost in our simulations that the simulation itself is real.

The dreams in the movie are essentially equivalent to simulations. The characters are able to project what they see in dreams just like the simulator is able to produce the symptoms of being sick when he or she doesn't want to go to school.

At the end of the movie, it's a dream - but it's also real or what baudrillard would call hyper-real.

The movie basically says the line is blurry between dreams and reality but I think the deeper meaning to it all is not dreams but baudrillards theory of simulacra which really is a theory on the current human condition and how empty the world really is.

Anyways I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying. Kinda hard to explain what I'm talking about ...�

I do love this!it is a fascinating opinion.
But if you took that right back to the start of this story,and the key question to the film-what exactly is reality?And how and why is the simulation produced?

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Post #: 26

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 3:24:24 AM

Keyser Sozzled

Posts: 5950
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin

Okay. Have seen it.

Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way. Nolan has bettered his last outing. It's becoming freaky. The chap knows what he is doing despite some of the OMG Batman moments.... This movie has (for some reason) gotten under my skin like few I can remember...

I am not a DiCaprio fan. Don't get me wrong I like him, but have never loved him. I have watched everything he has been in and thought that for the first time since the Basketball Diaries he showed some real depth, although I thought he was very good in an underwritten role in in the Departed. Then I watched Shutter Island. I had read the book and was concerned that he couldn't pull it off but I honestly thought he was excellent. A night's works. A job done. Well done lad, despite what I think of you, you have a nailed on performance all of your own and I can't object.

Then I watched this. DiCaprio's performance is as good as anything I have seen in the last 20 years. I kinda feel like his agent has implemented an "Inception" on me. He just left me lost for words. Rachel Ellen Page was also fantastic, seeing as she was basically Basil Exposition I thought she turned in a fine performance. Ken Watanebe was great. However despite Leo's chops I can't shake Tom Hardy or GLH performances?...I Honestly think Tom Hardy steals the movie. He was simply amazing.

The premise was, surprisingly, what I expected. However the execution was not. The rabbit hole just kept getting deeper. It was so refreshing to see a movie that was willing to abide to it's own rules whilst never losing sight of the conflict at the heart of the protagonist.

It is simply the best movie of the year.

Visually it had that weird Nolan mix. Shots of the uber-mundane mixed with the fantastical but the world (or worlds if you prefer\) were so perfectly realised that when it was needed my jaw was around my feet.
The hype would have us believe that this was (to quote Empire) "Matrix on steriods" but that is without doubt the most asinine tagline I have ever read. This is a grey matter movie, not a "slap bang" sci-fi fest.

Every beat felt real (Oh!, The irony) every depth in the dream world necessary, every turn, twist and revelation handled by someone who had utter confidence in the world that he had created.

As for the ending?..

I just don't know. My own view is that Cobb is still in the dream world. But then if I think that I have to go back through the yarn that has just been spun and pick out a thread. Put it this way. I came out of the cinema and heard 6 theories as to the ending.

Seriously, how good is that?

Forget TDK. This is Nolan's masterpiece. I am sure he feels the same as we do: "I can't believe I was allowed to make this". Think about it: An action movie where the action isn't real, a drama where the only conflict repeats itself about 8 times, a chase movie where there is no chase and finally a movie where a character is tricked to break into his own mind.

Imagine Michael Bay pitching it?

Those words you are looking for?..

"Thank's Chris"

< Message edited by Keyser Sozzled -- 18/7/2010 3:37:25 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 3:34:30 AM

paul_ie86

Posts: 11224
Joined: 4/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

Rachel Evan Wood.

Ellen Page?

quote:

I came out of the cinema and heard 6 theories as to the ending.

What are they? Or will that have to wait till morning?

< Message edited by paul_ie86 -- 18/7/2010 3:35:23 AM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 3:39:31 AM

Keyser Sozzled

Posts: 5950
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin

Yep thanks Paulie !

Well, I heard,

1) Deadly
2) He was dead? (!)
3) It was in Wateneb's head
4) It was in Di Caprio's head
5) He was limbo all along
6) It was an Inception in his own mind (Leo)

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Post #: 29

RE: Inception - Beware of Spoilers!! - 18/7/2010 10:40:30 AM

juanvasquez

Posts: 7435
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: The cupboard under the stairs

One thing I don't recall being elaborated was how the architect influences the subjects dream. They are inside Murphy's dream, but Page is the one who has constructed everything around them. I know they are all linked together, but I can't remember an explanation of how it works. But then again, I was probably only just keeping up with everything as it was!

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Post #: 30