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RE: The General Election - 3/4/2010 1:59:23 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM


quote:

ORIGINAL: moontheloon


quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM



That figure seems a bit high. This is one of those policies that I'm not sure I agree with the Lib Dems on. I think we need a nuclear deterrent, maybe not now but in the future it might be needed. Better to be safe than sorry imo.


I hate to say this but I think you're wrong. No country really wants a nuclear war, the closest we've come is arguably the Cuban missile crisis and in that both the Russians and the Americans did everything they could to avoid having to use nuclear weapons against each other with both sides making concessions that they did not want to. I think we're much more at danger of a bomb simply being set off in the middle of a city rather than a missile launch. I don't quite know how we can build a system to stop this type of bombing, and I don't even think that it's that likely. I'm all for disarmament, I think someone needs to start it, as no country seems willing to disarm unless all other countries follow suit.



Nuclear disarmament is just one big prisoner's dilemma, so I cant ever see complete nuclear disarmament happening. Sure it is in the best interests of all countries to disarm, but no one wants to be the first to get rid of their nuclear weapons (and with countries like Russia, China, India and Pakistan I cant ever see them giving up their nuclear weapons).

I agree with you that most countries do not want a nuclear war (it is a weapon of last resort) and at the moment we may not need a nuclear deterrent. But if ten years down the line circumstances change and we dont have a nuclear deterrent, then we are pretty screwed. I would rather not take that chance.


I think the argument surrounding Trident is a) the fact the cold war is over and threat has changed and b) we have loads of nukes and nuclear submarines that can hit anyone, is this upgrade worth the money considering the state of the country's finances?

As for the 100 billion figure Greenpeace quote a 97 billion saving while others say it's 20 billion so I might be wrong but even the lesser saving is substantial

(in reply to SWOTBM)
Post #: 91
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 2:30:02 PM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Caught somewhere in time
I'm gonna vote BNP, I reckon. Whatever else you might think about them, at least they're not just the same as every other party.

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Post #: 92
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 3:21:23 PM   
moontheloon


Posts: 6321
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Birmingham

quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

I'm gonna vote BNP, I reckon. Whatever else you might think about them, at least they're not just the same as every other party.


Please tell me you're joking? Even without the Racist policies the BNP are a dreadful party...

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Post #: 93
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 3:32:23 PM   
KnightofZyryab


Posts: 5840
Joined: 26/12/2005
Tommy you were being ironic right ? Because to be blunt only an ignorant moron would vote for them.

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Post #: 94
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 8:32:40 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I would say make certain you carefully red their manifesto before deciding to vote Green.


That goes for any party though, right?


I've no idea who to vote for really. I think genuinely there are alot of people like me, who might be of a slightly leftie pursuasion, who just have no-one to vote for. Labour need at least a term out of government so that they can get themselves back together, sort themselves out and perhaps even become the party of the Left again. It just makes me shudder that it means that it means the Tories are going to be in. I don't want to vote them either. Lib Dems are who I voted for for at the last GE, but they seem a bit lethargic compared with last time. After that you're into the small parties, and even they aren't that interesting to me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

I'm gonna vote BNP, I reckon. Whatever else you might think about them, at least they're not just the same as every other party.


Well yeah, none of the other parties are quite so right wing. But voting for them is a crazy notion, obviously.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 95
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 8:42:43 PM   
Timon


Posts: 14588
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol
I really think Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling's comments on the whole 'homosexuals in B&Bs' could really backfire for the Conservatives... especially if Cameron still stays mum on the issue.

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(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 96
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 8:59:47 PM   
moontheloon


Posts: 6321
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Birmingham

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon

I really think Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling's comments on the whole 'homosexuals in B&Bs' could really backfire for the Conservatives... especially if Cameron still stays mum on the issue.


I've just been reading articles on this. So he says it's okay for Christians offended by homosexuality to not let them into their homes (as in a B&B) But that Hotels have no right to discriminate... someone still owns a hotel don't they? Secondly if this were about religion or ethnicity it wouldn't even be being discussed, he would be out no questions asked. I honestly don't care if your religious beliefs are against homosexuality, that doesn't mean that your discrimination is justified. For a start the bible is incredibly vague on the subject, but pretty clear about the whole acceptance and toleration thing. Your religious beliefs are no excuse for discrimination, and as soon as you start using them as such perhaps it is time for your religion to take a good long look at what it preaches and ask if it is morally right to do so.

The most confusing thing about the whole issue though is something he has said as quoted on the BBC website

quote:

"I also voted in favour of the legislation that prohibited bed and breakfast owners from discriminating against gay people."


If he voted against B&B owners being able to turn away gay couples, but doesn't believe it, what's the deal there?

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Post #: 97
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 9:36:35 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home
Its genuinely quite shocking, I think, for someone in such a position to say such a thing. Genuinely, I'd like to think the backlash would be big enough to put the election in serious, serious doubt.

Its kinda worrying that Cameron is just doing his usual thing i.e waiting to see what the masses think and then going along with that. Just come out and take a bloody position. I'd like to believe he believes in something.

_____________________________

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WWLD?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to moontheloon)
Post #: 98
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 11:44:06 PM   
swordsandsandals


Posts: 12571
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: A magical forest

quote:

ORIGINAL: moontheloon


the bible is pretty clear about the whole acceptance and toleration thing. Your religious beliefs are no excuse for discrimination, and as soon as you start using them as such perhaps it is time for your religion to take a good long look at what it preaches and ask if it is morally right to do so.



Amen, moon. Not letting gays into your home?? Ridiculous.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawlinson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

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Post #: 99
RE: The General Election - 4/4/2010 11:55:42 PM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Caught somewhere in time
Is it not arguable, though, that people should have the right to refuse to do business with people if they want? In which case, society's morals would see the business being shunned by many anyway, but the country shouldn't need the government to decide what our morals should and shouldn't be.

And I may be a moron, but no, I'm not voting BNP. This time, anyway.

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Post #: 100
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 12:00:10 AM   
swordsandsandals


Posts: 12571
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: A magical forest

quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it not arguable, though, that people should have the right to refuse to do business with people if they want? In which case, society's morals would see the business being shunned by many anyway, but the country shouldn't need the government to decide what our morals should and shouldn't be.



It's a fair point. I was more arguing that a self-respecting Christian shouldn't turn anyone away from their home simply because they live differently. Unless of course they are a kleptomaniac come to steal everything you own.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawlinson

Swords is right about everything.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Swords smells like bum.



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Post #: 101
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 12:07:25 AM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it not arguable, though, that people should have the right to refuse to do business with people if they want?


The argument is presented from a "Christian" angle though, so by that reckoning they shouldn't let people having affairs into their home either. Or open on a Sunday. Or let people of other religions in. Wouldn't be all that successful a business, I wouldn't have thunk.

_____________________________

Team Ginge
WWLD?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to tommyjarvis)
Post #: 102
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 12:34:09 AM   
hiptobesquare_x


Posts: 1384
Joined: 27/6/2009
From: A petri dish.
This election makes me want to stick a fork in my eye. There seems to be a distinct lack of a reasonable option; Labour need a kick up the arse, the Tories are well, the Tories (the fact that David Cameron never wears a tie also irritates the fook out of me, it's not trendy or casual, you just look unkempt) and the Lib Dems are so middle of the road it's painful; it still seems a huge shame that they haven't let Vince Cable take over, he seems the only one with a genuine bit of sense.


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Post #: 103
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 8:37:07 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18173
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I would say make certain you carefully red their manifesto before deciding to vote Green.


That goes for any party though, right?


I've no idea who to vote for really. I think genuinely there are alot of people like me, who might be of a slightly leftie pursuasion, who just have no-one to vote for. Labour need at least a term out of government so that they can get themselves back together, sort themselves out and perhaps even become the party of the Left again. It just makes me shudder that it means that it means the Tories are going to be in. I don't want to vote them either. Lib Dems are who I voted for for at the last GE, but they seem a bit lethargic compared with last time. After that you're into the small parties, and even they aren't that interesting to me.



Not that a manifesto actually is worth the paper it is written on. I think I really gave up on Labour in many ways (other than never having trusted Tony Blair) when they blatently broke a manifesto pledge mid term and introduced student fees having promised not to in their manifesto. Unsurprisingly the page the promise was made had vanished off the online copy on their website. I think that was the most blatant breech of manifesto I have ever seen.

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Post #: 104
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 8:40:19 AM   
sanchia


Posts: 18173
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it not arguable, though, that people should have the right to refuse to do business with people if they want? In which case, society's morals would see the business being shunned by many anyway, but the country shouldn't need the government to decide what our morals should and shouldn't be.

And I may be a moron, but no, I'm not voting BNP. This time, anyway.

Apparently there are internal power struggles going on in the BNP at the moment with attempts to oust Griffen for being too left wing.

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Post #: 105
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 11:30:00 AM   
moontheloon


Posts: 6321
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Birmingham

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia


quote:

ORIGINAL: tommyjarvis

Is it not arguable, though, that people should have the right to refuse to do business with people if they want? In which case, society's morals would see the business being shunned by many anyway, but the country shouldn't need the government to decide what our morals should and shouldn't be.

And I may be a moron, but no, I'm not voting BNP. This time, anyway.

Apparently there are internal power struggles going on in the BNP at the moment with attempts to oust Griffen for being too left wing.


It's scary to think that some people consider Nick Griffin as left wing

Also, I read it was a plan to kill him rather than simply oust him.

article here

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Post #: 106
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 12:14:03 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18173
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Considering UKIP pretended to be sleaze free it is not looking good for them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/04/ukip-reveal-funding

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Post #: 107
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 6:00:32 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I would say make certain you carefully red their manifesto before deciding to vote Green.


That goes for any party though, right?


I've no idea who to vote for really. I think genuinely there are alot of people like me, who might be of a slightly leftie pursuasion, who just have no-one to vote for. Labour need at least a term out of government so that they can get themselves back together, sort themselves out and perhaps even become the party of the Left again. It just makes me shudder that it means that it means the Tories are going to be in. I don't want to vote them either. Lib Dems are who I voted for for at the last GE, but they seem a bit lethargic compared with last time. After that you're into the small parties, and even they aren't that interesting to me.



Not that a manifesto actually is worth the paper it is written on. I think I really gave up on Labour in many ways (other than never having trusted Tony Blair) when they blatently broke a manifesto pledge mid term and introduced student fees having promised not to in their manifesto. Unsurprisingly the page the promise was made had vanished off the online copy on their website. I think that was the most blatant breech of manifesto I have ever seen.


Oh yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, and indeed Student Fee's was about the point where I decided voting for Labour was an absolute no-no. But everyone should read them so they know what they're being promised, so they can be angry about it later.

_____________________________

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WWLD?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to sanchia)
Post #: 108
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 6:12:49 PM   
timomouse


Posts: 833
Joined: 12/3/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I would say make certain you carefully red their manifesto before deciding to vote Green.


That goes for any party though, right?



Particularly the Greens - they're virulently anti-science so if you're pro-stem cells or anything like that, then don't vote for them.

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 109
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 6:43:14 PM   
Funkyrae


Posts: 20372
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just stick a pin in a map

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

I would say make certain you carefully red their manifesto before deciding to vote Green.


Colour pun intended?

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Post #: 110
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 6:45:55 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18173
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
Sadly not just a sticky A

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Post #: 111
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 10:09:11 PM   
Ref


Posts: 7461
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Leicester

quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesbondguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jediwarrior

I shall be voting Tory.

Down with Brown


When we're living in the middle of the next couple of decades of dark Tory reign, I'll know who to blame, then.


Yeah, coz the last few years have been fantastic(!)

Anyway, I think I'll be voting Lib Dem again - kind of the best of a bad bunch.

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Post #: 112
RE: The General Election - 5/4/2010 11:21:20 PM   
jamesbondguy


Posts: 6238
Joined: 6/1/2007
From: The Village Green

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ref


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesbondguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jediwarrior

I shall be voting Tory.

Down with Brown


When we're living in the middle of the next couple of decades of dark Tory reign, I'll know who to blame, then.


Yeah, coz the last few years have been fantastic(!)



I think it's pretty clear they haven't. New Labour apologism isn't my bag, baby. But I can only see things getting progressively worse if Cameron, (gasp!) Osborne and the rest of the old toffs get in.

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Post #: 113
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 9:38:54 AM   
jediwarrior


Posts: 20016
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: At home eating twiglets
Quite looking forward to the next month. It's too close to call as to who wins and I believe it's going to get quite dirty.

It could be that the way they come across on the 3 TV Question Times will decide who wins.

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Post #: 114
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 10:06:47 AM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
The polls suggest Labour are closing the gap. It's not going to be enough though. If you want the most accurate possible predictor of outcome, Oddschecker is the place to look. The Tories are 4/7, Labour are 11/1. No overall controll is 13/8, which looks short to me.

It'll be interesting to see how Labour reshapes after the probable defeat.

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Post #: 115
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 10:20:33 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8251
Joined: 31/7/2008
I hate to say it, but I would almost prefer the Tories to win than for there to be a hung parliament. Given that all these idiots in the Commons can do is bicker with each other I can't see any real governing getting done under a hung parliament, and if it came to it I wouldn't be too shocked if the Queen stepped in, especially given the economic conditions at the moment.
Also, I honestly think that if they do win the Tories are so ill-prepared and equipped to lead that they would make everything so fubar that it would set the party back another 10 years. Which suits me fine.

(in reply to JessFranco)
Post #: 116
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 11:20:24 AM   
jediwarrior


Posts: 20016
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: At home eating twiglets
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

The polls suggest Labour are closing the gap. It's not going to be enough though. If you want the most accurate possible predictor of outcome, Oddschecker is the place to look. The Tories are 4/7, Labour are 11/1. No overall controll is 13/8, which looks short to me.

It'll be interesting to see how Labour reshapes after the probable defeat.


It depends on what poll you look at. Some say 4% others take it upto 10%. It's going to go up and down like a yo-yo over the next month.
Plus I'm sure there are millions who are undecided who to vote for yet, so this polls could have it very wrong.

_____________________________

GAMERTAG: hothtrooper

The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people. And so long as men die, liberty will never perish.

(in reply to JessFranco)
Post #: 117
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 11:29:51 AM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
quote:

It depends on what poll you look at. Some say 4% others take it upto 10%. It's going to go up and down like a yo-yo over the next month.
Plus I'm sure there are millions who are undecided who to vote for yet, so this polls could have it very wrong.


Almost all polls are fairly unreliable - generally slanted by the editorial bias of the people paying for them. The bookmakers are very rarely wrong when it comes to elections though.

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Post #: 118
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 11:39:06 AM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
There's been talk of a Labour-Lib Dem pact in the event of a close one getting Vince Cable into no.11 - one part of me quite likes the idea but then to see Labour get back in....



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Post #: 119
RE: The General Election - 6/4/2010 11:43:58 AM   
JessFranco


Posts: 2523
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
It'd be interesting to see who the Lib Dems sided with in the event of a hung parliament. They're such an uneasy marriage of a party at the best of times - half to the left of Labour, half free-market libertarians, the consequences for their future would be huge. You'd think it would have to be Labour but they'd lose a fair amount of credibility either way.

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Post #: 120
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