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RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:23:01 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
I'm not saying this chap shouldn't get done if he's breached the abuse of public office thing, or that the police shouldn't be clear how he got access to this info. As I said - I think the arrest seems reasonable. 

But it's smoke and mirrors on the part of some to suggest this somehow changes the actual statements of the two police who were there.


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Post #: 5461
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:24:20 PM   
Sinatra


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quote:

But you can't deny, I think, that context is key here.


Exactly, and now the context is in doubt imo.

quote:

I do think it reflects on the job he should be doing


Being a feared political inforcer who's job it is to keep everyone in line as much as possible and perhaps even being a tad scary at times... hmmm

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Post #: 5462
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:26:07 PM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7861
Joined: 3/10/2005
quote:

But it's smoke and mirrors on the part of some to suggest this somehow changes the actual statements of the two police who were there.


As long as they were telling the truth... afterall, there is no longer an independent member of the public to back up their claims.... I'm just saying...

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Post #: 5463
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:30:47 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18239
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinatra



quote:

I do think it reflects on the job he should be doing


Being a feared political inforcer who's job it is to keep everyone in line as much as possible and perhaps even being a tad scary at times... hmmm



To those in the Tory party maybe but not in public to people doing their job. There is a line.

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Post #: 5464
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:34:26 PM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7861
Joined: 3/10/2005
It's probably like Elab has said, but... that doesn't mean this shouldn't be fully investigated now.

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Post #: 5465
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:35:43 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinatra

quote:

But you can't deny, I think, that context is key here.


Exactly, and now the context is in doubt imo.



And that's where I don't see why -

did the incident itself happen - yes
did Mitchell acknowledge swearing at/abusing the officers - yes
has the evidence of the officers present changed - no

Anything extraneous to that may have been part of the story but it doesn't change the core facts.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 5466
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 4:40:51 PM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7861
Joined: 3/10/2005
quote:

did Mitchell acknowledge swearing at/abusing the officers - yes


Yes but he always denied certain parts of the exchange, and these parts are what the media really ran with. Its easy to make somebody seem a complete cunt and perhaps he is... but this really needs nailing down now and the government and the Met are right to take it seriously. The PM himself hasn't suggested that he's going to be reinstated just because of this.

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Post #: 5467
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 5:00:08 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
But his denial is still contradicted by the two officers who recorded the incident, isn't it? So this is irrelevant to that - it's still 2 against 1. And the Telegraph did a damn good job of destroying him based on stories of what he'd been like at International Devt frankly - they seemed to clearly believe he'd be the type to say it. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Sinatra)
Post #: 5468
RE: The British Politics Thread - 19/12/2012 7:18:08 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North
Coppers lying? Surely not...

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Post #: 5469
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 9:03:25 AM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7861
Joined: 3/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But his denial is still contradicted by the two officers who recorded the incident, isn't it? So this is irrelevant to that - it's still 2 against 1. And the Telegraph did a damn good job of destroying him based on stories of what he'd been like at International Devt frankly - they seemed to clearly believe he'd be the type to say it.


Of course it's not irrelevant because their statement is now in doubt and after watching the footage I am convinced he didn't 'rant' as they reported... there is also no sign of the 'members' of the public that looked 'shocked' - according to their statement.

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Post #: 5470
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 9:54:36 AM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12182
Joined: 30/9/2005
Strictly speaking, is it really two against one? Two people giving the same story that conflicts with another is one story against one. Or one group vs one.

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Post #: 5471
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 10:07:55 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6286
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
I have to agree with Sinatra on this one regarding the relevance of the recent disclosures.  With the speculation in the media that this was some kind of Police Federation conspiracy to discredit Mitchell, then the revelation that the so-called independent witness statement wasn't so independent after all has to have some bearing on motive.

Having said that, from all accounts of Mitchell's aggressive personality (not to mention his own admission), he did lose his rag at the cops on duty and did swear at them.  His excuse that the swearing was not directed to the cops in particular but was in general frustration at the situation doesn't alter the fact that his behaviour was unbecoming of a member of the government and he deserved to be punished for it.

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Post #: 5472
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 12:00:06 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But his denial is still contradicted by the two officers who recorded the incident, isn't it? So this is irrelevant to that - it's still 2 against 1. And the Telegraph did a damn good job of destroying him based on stories of what he'd been like at International Devt frankly - they seemed to clearly believe he'd be the type to say it.


And what makes them so reliable? I said at the time (much as it pained me to even vaguely defend a tory MP) that I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to it, and judging by that video their initial recording of the incident may not have been entirely accurate. And the whole swearing-at-a-policeman being an arrestable offence has always rankled me anyway - I'm sure I'm not the only person on here who's been called far worse than a 'pleb' by more than one copper so who knows what they said to him before his supposed 'rant'?
And since when did The Telegraph become a dependable judge of character?

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Post #: 5473
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 12:58:44 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8276
Joined: 31/7/2008
I guess it shows why governments are usually smart enough to avoid putting the boot in on the police. Even Maggie knew enough to keep the rozzers on side

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Post #: 5474
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 1:17:46 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But his denial is still contradicted by the two officers who recorded the incident, isn't it? So this is irrelevant to that - it's still 2 against 1. And the Telegraph did a damn good job of destroying him based on stories of what he'd been like at International Devt frankly - they seemed to clearly believe he'd be the type to say it. 


And what makes them so reliable? I said at the time (much as it pained me to even vaguely defend a tory MP) that I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to it, and judging by that video their initial recording of the incident may not have been entirely accurate. And the whole swearing-at-a-policeman being an arrestable offence has always rankled me anyway - I'm sure I'm not the only person on here who's been called far worse than a 'pleb' by more than one copper so who knows what they said to him before his supposed 'rant'?
And since when did The Telegraph become a dependable judge of character?


I genuinely think that if they'd done anything other than say what they said (and what he said they said) that would already be out there - I don't believe Mitchell hasn't disputed their record, just the one word.

So if there are 2 people saying u v x y and z happened and the other person says u v x y happened and he has an obvious motive for denying something said in what was clearly the heat of the moment that would be grossly embarrassing to him and his party - is there any reason to disbelieve it? I didn't think so at the time, esp when Mitchell acknowledged going off on one.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to horribleives)
Post #: 5475
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 1:42:04 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

But his denial is still contradicted by the two officers who recorded the incident, isn't it? So this is irrelevant to that - it's still 2 against 1. And the Telegraph did a damn good job of destroying him based on stories of what he'd been like at International Devt frankly - they seemed to clearly believe he'd be the type to say it.


And what makes them so reliable? I said at the time (much as it pained me to even vaguely defend a tory MP) that I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to it, and judging by that video their initial recording of the incident may not have been entirely accurate. And the whole swearing-at-a-policeman being an arrestable offence has always rankled me anyway - I'm sure I'm not the only person on here who's been called far worse than a 'pleb' by more than one copper so who knows what they said to him before his supposed 'rant'?
And since when did The Telegraph become a dependable judge of character?


I genuinely think that if they'd done anything other than say what they said (and what he said they said) that would already be out there - I don't believe Mitchell hasn't disputed their record, just the one word.

So if there are 2 people saying u v x y and z happened and the other person says u v x y happened and he has an obvious motive for denying something said in what was clearly the heat of the moment that would be grossly embarrassing to him and his party - is there any reason to disbelieve it? I didn't think so at the time, esp when Mitchell acknowledged going off on one.



When the CCTV footage contradicts the police's version of events (and people involved are getting arrested left right and centre) then there's certainly reason to be suspicious.

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Post #: 5476
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 1:55:23 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54597
Joined: 1/10/2005
I wasn't clear that it did. They said., I thought (and may be wrong) that it was overheard by the public. The CCTV indicates there were 3 people about, 1 walking past. I'm not sure it's entirely contradictory.

What the CCTV contradicted was the story of the one who wasn't there in the context of where he said he was - this police officer that's been arrested.

I should add 'I think' - I've only read a couple of bits on this particular bit and might be wrong in this.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to horribleives)
Post #: 5477
RE: The British Politics Thread - 20/12/2012 2:40:40 PM   
Sinatra


Posts: 7861
Joined: 3/10/2005
quote:

I should add 'I think' - I've only read a couple of bits on this particular bit and might be wrong in this.


Yeah I think you are wrong, after watching the tape it's clear that their log doesn't really stand up... especially with the members of the public. Also, Mitchell has always disputed a lot more than just 1 word.


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Post #: 5478
RE: The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 4:09:45 PM   
lbiu


Posts: 2779
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just 3 doors away from Heaven
Soooooo Cameron wants to be in power till 2020.


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Post #: 5479
RE: The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 5:22:25 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18239
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I want a shiny red Ferrari and 10m. The likelihood of getting it is low.

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Post #: 5480
The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 5:43:53 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home
It would be a bit weird, in fairness, if the Prime Minister went "Actually this job is not very good, I'm hoping I lose the next General Election so I can spend the rest of my life giving after dinner speeches" wouldn't it?

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Post #: 5481
RE: The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 5:59:11 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18239
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
It would be refreshing.

Clegg: You're just not gonna go?
Cameron: Yeah.
Clegg: Won't you get fired?
Cameron: I don't know, but I really don't like it, and, uh, I'm not gonna go.
Clegg: So you're gonna quit?
Cameron: Nuh-uh. Not really. Uh... I'm just gonna stop going.
Clegg: When did you decide all that?
Cameron: About an hour ago.
Clegg: Oh, really? About an hour ago... so you're gonna get another job?
Cameron: I don't think I'd like another job.
Clegg: Well, what are you going to do about money and bills and...
Cameron: You know, I've never really liked paying bills. I don't think I'm gonna do that, either.
Clegg: Well, so what do you wanna do?
Cameron: I wanna take you out to dinner, and then I wanna go back to my apartment and watch 'Kung Fu'. Do you ever watch 'Kung Fu'?
Clegg: I love 'Kung Fu'.

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Post #: 5482
RE: The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 6:40:07 PM   
lbiu


Posts: 2779
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just 3 doors away from Heaven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

It would be a bit weird, in fairness, if the Prime Minister went "Actually this job is not very good, I'm hoping I lose the next General Election so I can spend the rest of my life giving after dinner speeches" wouldn't it?



I just think its weird he assumes people will put up with him that long. I can see the Tories throwing him off a bridge with cement shoes within the next month.

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Post #: 5483
RE: The British Politics Thread - 6/1/2013 8:02:49 PM   
Darth Marenghi

 

Posts: 3217
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From: Manchester
I'm with 'Barb on this - most of these PM's expect to be in the job for unrealistic timeframes. Blair and Thatcher probably said similar things in their day.

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Post #: 5484
RE: The British Politics Thread - 8/1/2013 11:10:51 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8061
Joined: 30/9/2005
Surprised no one been on this thread today.

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Post #: 5485
RE: The British Politics Thread - 11/1/2013 3:44:52 AM   
galvatron


Posts: 1280
Joined: 1/10/2005
So 69% of MPs think that they are paid too low and they should get their final salary pension should be reinstated.

This at a time when most people's wages are being cut and stagnating due to inflation and most final salary pensions have been taken away from public workers.

I understand that MPs earn less than CEOs and some civil servants etc but how many MPs are millionaires? And I think it's rather hypocritical of them to ask for a 32% pay increase when they are cutting everything else!

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Post #: 5486
RE: The British Politics Thread - 11/1/2013 8:46:57 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8276
Joined: 31/7/2008
The only thing that surprises me about that is that the figure is as low as 69%. It must be nice to be able to decide that you should get paid more and actually be able to make it happen. I'd be interested how many of those who believe they should be paid more are actually millionaires though.

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Post #: 5487
RE: The British Politics Thread - 11/1/2013 5:54:03 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18239
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
I think you will find 80% of non-MP's think the same. The only difference is that they don't get to approve their own pay rises.

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Post #: 5488
RE: The British Politics Thread - 14/1/2013 6:38:50 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


Posts: 8061
Joined: 30/9/2005
So massive overhaul of pensions.

Not quite so good for the higher earners or employers but really good for mothers who've left work to look after children.

Damn Torys always taking from the poor and giving to the rich

< Message edited by Flatulent_Bob -- 14/1/2013 6:47:41 PM >


_____________________________

I'm your huckleberry...

All the world will be your enemy, Prince of a Thousand enemies. And when they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you; digger, listener, runner, Prince with the swift warning. Be cunning, and full of tricks, and your people will never be destroyed.


Oh my God! They banned Kenny!


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Post #: 5489
RE: The British Politics Thread - 15/1/2013 11:16:23 PM   
galvatron


Posts: 1280
Joined: 1/10/2005
Starting salary for police officers has been cut by 4000/year.

Also teacher's pay will now be set by their headteachers and according to results based performance...


Can't see how either of these will increase standards etc...

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Post #: 5490
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