RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 3:43:07 PM

MoBiUGeArSkIn

Posts: 385
Joined: 3/10/2005

Actually, the whole "Avatar job" thing relates to the 3D wave in general, and commentary is readily available.

Not so many references to the Nazi regime though.

The years since Beowulf count for naught because it started something. The Xbox 360 came out in 2005 but is still considered to be a "Next Gen" platform. Beowulf is a great example of 3D application and performance capture.

Avatar takes these things further. A LOT further. And the buzz that film generated, in lot of cases, was due to the further POTENTIAL of the techniques.

We'll agree to disagree. I'll continue to watch how things progress.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

Are you a film snob? You sound like a film snob.

Avatar has like what? 88% on Metacritic? Ranks in the top 250 on imdb?

OMG I DISAGREED WITH "CRITICAL CONSENSUS" (which is lower than that last I checked) AND IMDB, HOW DARE I??? PARDON ME AS I GO WHIP MYSELF WHILE I WHIP MYSELF AND FORCE MYSELF TO LIKE SATANTANGO BECAUSE I AM A MEGA ELITIST FILM SNOB.

Well yeah. That's how democracy works. You get out-voted. And you lose.

< Message edited by MoBiUGeArSkIn -- 31/3/2010 3:45:02 PM >

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Post #: 181

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:00:15 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

What does Avatar take further, you spent 2 pages saying it takes something further and I still don't have an answer.

quote:

The years since Beowulf count for naught because it started something. The Xbox 360 came out in 2005 but is still considered to be a "Next Gen" platform. Beowulf is a great example of 3D application and performance capture.

Isn't this a straw man argument? Why the hell are we comparing gaming to film? Hasn't this proven already a mistake.

quote:

Well yeah. That's how democracy works. You get out-voted. And you lose.

Wait, putting consensus based on two sites (and IMDB of all things) and therefore something is good? And on art form/craft? Something which at the end has no real definitive definition. Are you actually implying that a film/painting/book/play might be good becuase of voting? Because that is incredibly, outstandingly dumb.

quote:

Avatar takes these things further. A LOT further. And the buzz that film generated, in lot of cases, was due to the further POTENTIAL of the techniques.

Again, LIKE WHAT?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
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Post #: 182

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:26:23 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn
Avatar should also be given props for the jobs it created. So it's importance extends beyond the screen. Just sayin'.

The Nazi regime also created jobs, y'know, them concentrations camps don't run themselves, y'know. Shall we "give them props" too? What on earth is "props" anyway?

I mean, sure, you have a point, but did you have to go the Nazi route?

I also considered the sex trade and the drug industry, alas I thought the use of Nazi's seemed rather poetic given the fact that Mo is practically calling us fascists.

[Historical pedentary alert]The use of the word 'autarky' would have been more appropriate given the use of the Third Reich a an example...[/Historical pedentary alert]

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Post #: 183

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:28:43 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

Avatar takes these things further. A LOT further. And the buzz that film generated, in lot of cases, was due to the further POTENTIAL of the techniques.

Again, LIKE WHAT?

I too would like to know. What is this difference between Avatar and Beowulf in terms of 3D? Surely they're the perfect evidence when suggesting that 3D doesn't evolve, its something, like colour or sound which has a set limit as to what it can do. Granted the form could be manipulated (like colour and sound on film are) but we have yet to see any evidence that this will happen, or how it could be, with even the most experimental of 3D films (Coraline) sticking to the norm for how the technique is actually utilised.

I don't understand why videogames come into this. Surely the manner in which videogames are distributed (via a cyclical updating of hardware) is the antithesis to how the cinema works, in that film exhibition has remained the same for over a hundred years?

Oh, and what on earth is "props"?

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Post #: 184

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:29:29 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: clownfoot

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn
Avatar should also be given props for the jobs it created. So it's importance extends beyond the screen.�Just sayin'.

The Nazi regime also created jobs, y'know, them concentrations camps don't run themselves, y'know. Shall we "give them props" too? What on earth is "props" anyway?

I mean, sure, you have a point, but did you have to go the Nazi route?

I also considered the sex trade and the drug industry, alas I thought the use of Nazi's seemed rather poetic given the fact that Mo is practically calling us fascists.

[Historical pedentary alert]The use of the word 'autarky' would have been more appropriate given�the use of the�Third Reich a an example...[/Historical pedentary alert]

Damn thee cleverman. Damn thee.

(in reply to clownfoot)

Post #: 185

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:32:15 PM

MoBiUGeArSkIn

Posts: 385
Joined: 3/10/2005

I suppose, at the end of the day, Dev... whatever anyone says about "immersion" on a fundamental level will be lost on you because you simply don't like it.

What does Avatar do better than Beowulf? It transports the viewers perspective.

Do we HONESTLY need to go into any more detail about the potential such a concept has?

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Post #: 186

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:34:24 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

quote:

OMG I DISAGREED WITH "CRITICAL CONSENSUS" (which is lower than that last I checked) AND IMDB, HOW DARE I??? PARDON ME AS I GO WHIP MYSELF WHILE I WHIP MYSELF AND FORCE MYSELF TO LIKE SATANTANGO BECAUSE I AM A MEGA ELITIST FILM SNOB.

Well yeah. That's how democracy works. You get out-voted. And you lose.

Don't you have to be 18 to vote in a democracy? Now, I don't want to dismiss the opinion of the average 12 year old who's impressed with shining things over nearly everything else that exists in the world...

...no, wait, I do actually want to dismiss there opinion as not contributing very much! Go democracy...

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Post #: 187

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:45:16 PM

MoBiUGeArSkIn

Posts: 385
Joined: 3/10/2005

Depends where we are, surely? Screw not letting 12 year olds voice their opinions. I'd rather we put a gag order on people who... wrong thread.

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Post #: 188

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:51:50 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

I suppose, at the end of the day, Dev... whatever anyone says about "immersion" on a fundamental level will be lost on you because you simply don't like it.

What does Avatar do better than Beowulf? It transports the viewers perspective.

Do we HONESTLY need to go into any more detail about the potential such a concept has?

Not "what does Avatar do better than Beowulf", what does it do differently to Beowulf? The core idea remains the same.

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 31/3/2010 4:53:22 PM >

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Post #: 189

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:56:10 PM

MoBiUGeArSkIn

Posts: 385
Joined: 3/10/2005

It doesn't do anything differently, it does it BETTER. That's the point. The improvements to all round visual fidelity are obvious.

Christmas Carol 3D did not evolve the techniques.

You going to say the difference between CC3D and Avatar isn't obvious?

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Post #: 190

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 4:58:02 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

It doesn't do anything differently, it does it BETTER. That's the point. The improvements to all round visual fidelity are obvious.

Christmas Carol 3D did not evolve the techniques.

You going to say the difference between CC3D and Avatar isn't obvious?

No I'm not, as I haven't seen A Christmas Carol, but the core mechanics behind the idea of 3D remain the same. You're original point was that 3D has something new to show. Which it doesn't.

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Post #: 191

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 5:02:40 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

I suppose, at the end of the day, Dev... whatever anyone says about "immersion" on a fundamental level will be lost on you because you simply don't like it.

Or maybe you could give a decent, proper explanation of how this works and maybe give me an understanding on why 3D actually is a vital tool in film-making, not exactly convince me, but make me empathize with such a tool. Cause Cameron has failed into convincing me.

Now pardon me as I convince a friend of mine to watch Antichrist for Good Friday.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

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Post #: 192

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 5:58:14 PM

REALLYMAD

Posts: 102
Joined: 30/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

Ahh and there it is, the T word. Didn't take long to find that particular dead end did it.
And emoticons too. Cute. Shucks!

You lead a massive ad hominen attack on the whole 3D argument and also felt compelled to start an own thread to it, let alone the "facts" you stated were nonsense (Kermode does have a worrying choices on which mainstream films are good and money says nothing on the quality of the films), and weren't far away from another troll who visits this forum every once in a while. If that post wasn't mean just to start rumpus than you did well making it look like one. You don't seem half bad forumite, but those comments made you seem as if you were only here to cause discord but that thread really made you look like a twat.

Oh dear. First we had troll, now we're following up with ad hominem and did I see Straw Man argument somewhere? For all the film snob gesturing you're really just a massive message board clich� aren't you. Still, averaging about 90 posts per week over four years will probably do that to you. Is that why you come across as a sort of self-appointed message board guardian, all defensive and implying that post count tally is directly proportional to your personal influence in here? Really should get out more you know.

And oh please, FORUMITE?? And you think I'm the one looking like a twat here? Irony on so many levels. I shall try not to lose any sleep over only being rated as not seeming half bad.

Once again, the facts thing:
Kermode said himself that he was not asked to head up Film 2010.
Avatar HAS outgossed all other films in history.
What is it about these statements that is nonsense? Do tell.

Actually, don't bother. I think we're happier that you don't feel like repeating yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

Are you a film snob? You sound like a film snob

To quote Churchill, "Ohhhhhhhhh yes!"
Although he may prefer the term Kermodite.

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Post #: 193

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:12:31 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

Once again, the facts thing:
Kermode said himself that he was not asked to head up Film 2010.
Avatar HAS outgossed all other films in history.
What is it about these statements�that is�nonsense? Do tell.

In unadjusted terms perhaps. In genuine terms its far from a fact, 13 places in fact.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

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Post #: 194

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:13:28 PM

elab49

Posts: 51617
Joined: 1/10/2005

Reallymad - try to stick to speaking to the post instead of spewing out insults. Slagging off forum board posters for posting on forums when you've actually signed up yourself always seemed the oddest and contradictory route to take an argument and when the first half of your post is about posters and not the subject, that can't go unnoticed. There is enough substance in your posts to make your point, whether or not others agree.

There is, sadly, a regular troll who can't seem to stay away from these Boards (as most Boards no doubt suffer). It can make other posters suspicious of new posters with set, strong views, particularly if they show a tendency to use tedious phrases like 'film snob'.

And on that, the same goes for everyone else re insults - keep the personal insults off-thread. Unless it relates to Kermode. In which case, try and back it up?

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Post #: 195

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:24:01 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MoBiUGeArSkIn

Are you a film snob? You sound like a film snob

To quote Churchill, "Ohhhhhhhhh yes!"
Although he may prefer the term Kermodite.

This sort of ganging up on one forumite is surely tantamount to bullying? Not that Dev can't handle himself, I just don't want to see him provoked into too much of a reaction.
You wouldn't like him when he's angry.

(in reply to REALLYMAD)

Post #: 196

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:33:07 PM

REALLYMAD

Posts: 102
Joined: 30/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

Once again, the facts thing:
Kermode said himself that he was not asked to head up Film 2010.
Avatar HAS outgossed all other films in history.
What is it about these statements that is nonsense? Do tell.

In unadjusted terms perhaps. In genuine terms its far from a fact, 13 places in fact.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

So in unadjusted terms it is indeed a fact, yes? And yes I knew that already. The statement intended to point out the commercial success of Avatar rather than cement it's box office figure as an absolute standard best ever.

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Post #: 197

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:38:46 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3582
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

What's this "immersion" word I keep hearing? Can a film shot in 2D not be considered "immersive" anymore? 3D doth not maketh the movie. What about great writing and acting? If a director needs 3D to make his/her movie thoroughly "immersive" then surely they're doing something wrong. 3D may be pretty but nothing can beat the power of an amazing performance, or a simple shot that can speak a thousand words by itself. 3D is just icing on the cake, I wish some people would stop trying to pretend it's anything more significant than that. Especially if the cake itself tastes crap.

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Post #: 198

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:43:39 PM

REALLYMAD

Posts: 102
Joined: 30/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Reallymad - try to stick to speaking to the post instead of spewing out insults. Slagging off forum board posters for posting on forums when you've actually signed up yourself always seemed the oddest and contradictory route to take an argument and when the first half of your post is about posters and not the subject, that can't go unnoticed. There is enough substance in your posts to make your point, whether or not others agree.

There is, sadly, a regular troll who can't seem to stay away from these Boards (as most Boards no doubt suffer). It can make other posters suspicious of new posters with set, strong views, particularly if they show a tendency to use tedious phrases like 'film snob'.

And on that, the same goes for everyone else re insults - keep the personal insults off-thread. Unless it relates to Kermode. In which case, try and back it up?

'Film snob' is indeed a tedious phrase but I call it like I see it. However, if you would prefer me to use 'cine elitist' or some other similar moniker I will be happy to do so.

If someone is attempting to 'have a go' doesn't it stand to reason that a defence is inevitable? I stand by my statements but shall make note of your points from now on. And I can assure you that any misguided suspicion that I am a reincarnation of a recurring message board nemesis is unfounded and infactual.

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Post #: 199

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:51:12 PM

Deviation

Posts: 26908
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ

Yes REALLYMAD, and THE FACT says nothing on the film itself aside that it made money and your attack on Kermode said nothing on why you disagree with him. You also decided to ignore most of my post and simply write insults for most of the post. Plus, I really want to go out more but right now I have some projects and assignments to do so I am staying in, and calling me to get out more is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone who simply joined the board simply to criticize Keromde and those who agree with his criticism of 3D under boring insults like "film snobs".

And please tell me REALLYMAD, tell me, how do you know I am a film snob, what gave you that impression. Tell how I am a film snob. Tell me how should I act to be a film snob. Tell us, how is one a film snob.

And I can assure the similarity to the other troll is not unfounded or in-factual, especially when both spoke of FACTS and used to prefer insulting over argumentation and stand by your points in the same. If you are not him then you are very similar.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 31/3/2010 6:52:31 PM >

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to adambatman82)

Post #: 200

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:52:27 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

Once again, the facts thing:
Kermode said himself that he was not asked to head up Film 2010.
Avatar HAS outgossed all other films in history.
What is it about these statements�that is�nonsense? Do tell.

In unadjusted terms perhaps. In genuine terms its far from a fact, 13 places in fact.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

So in unadjusted terms it is indeed a fact, yes? And yes I knew that already. The statement intended to point out the commercial success of Avatar rather than cement�it's box office figure as an absolute standard best ever.

Then why use the term "Avatar HAS outgrossed all other films in history"? That sounds like a fairly definitive statement, and one that suggests the person making the statement believes that achievement to be absolute, or indicative of a point along the lines an "an absolute standard best ever".

Unadjusted figures are pointless, and exist for little reason other than to give the marketing bods ammunition with which to sell DVD's, sequels and spin-offs. They don't mean a thing.

(in reply to REALLYMAD)

Post #: 201

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 6:52:52 PM

jamesbondguy

Posts: 6238
Joined: 6/1/2007
From: The Village Green

No to Kermode, yes to...

< Message edited by jamesbondguy -- 31/3/2010 6:53:14 PM >

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Post #: 202

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 7:01:40 PM

Scott_

Posts: 3490
Joined: 26/6/2008
From: Leeds

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

And please tell me REALLYMAD, tell me, how do you know I am a film snob, what gave you that impression. Tell how I am a film snob. Tell me how should I act to be a film snob. Tell us, how is one a film snob.

You don't like Bad Boys II.

I think your spot-on about 3D though Dev and I'm probably repeating what others have said here but I don't need objects flying at me to make me feel like I'm immersed in a Film, I don't even need the extra depth in the image. If the direction is good and the script is good and the performances are good then I'm going to feel part of the world thats been presented to me.

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Post #: 203

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 7:05:24 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18902
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Somehow cinema managed to get along for 100+ years without people complaining about lack of immersion. Avatar didn't make me feel any more in the film, than something like Aliens. Indeed I suspect most people would still go for Aliens if it was a choice between the two.

I am not against 3D, but I have yet to see a movie that really justifies the expense for anything more than the studios trying to charge more money. That said, I think Tron has the best shot of showing the potential of the tool.

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Post #: 204

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 7:18:00 PM

sanchia

Posts: 16715
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich

I think you cannot use 3D as an excuse to undercut the need for a decent script. At the moment I do think it is a bit of a fad which does boost the box office (not just in the inflated ticket prices) as more films become 3D as it is squeezed into them then if it is more immersive or not will show. to be honest the two 3D films I have seen I found the experience of the 3D to be the opposite of immersive in that whenever a 3D heavy scene was shown I was drawn out of focusing on the film.

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Post #: 205

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 10:30:08 PM

REALLYMAD

Posts: 102
Joined: 30/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

Yes REALLYMAD, and THE FACT says nothing on the film itself aside that it made money and your attack on Kermode said nothing on why you disagree with him. You also decided to ignore most of my post and simply write insults for most of the post. Plus, I really want to go out more but right now I have some projects and assignments to do so I am staying in, and calling me to get out more is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone who simply joined the board simply to criticize Keromde and those who agree with his criticism of 3D under boring insults like "film snobs".

And please tell me REALLYMAD, tell me, how do you know I am a film snob, what gave you that impression. Tell how I am a film snob. Tell me how should I act to be a film snob. Tell us, how is one a film snob.

And I can assure the similarity to the other troll is not unfounded or in-factual, especially when both spoke of FACTS and used to prefer insulting over argumentation and stand by your points in the same. If you are not him then you are very similar.

I've let it go mate - you really should too.

_____________________________

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Post #: 206

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 10:39:46 PM

REALLYMAD

Posts: 102
Joined: 30/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: REALLYMAD

Once again, the facts thing:
Kermode said himself that he was not asked to head up Film 2010.
Avatar HAS outgossed all other films in history.
What is it about these statements�that is�nonsense? Do tell.

In unadjusted terms perhaps. In genuine terms its far from a fact, 13 places in fact.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

So in unadjusted terms it is indeed a fact, yes? And yes I knew that already. The statement intended to point out the commercial success of Avatar rather than cement�it's box office figure as an absolute standard best ever.

Then why use the term "Avatar HAS outgrossed all other films in history"? That sounds like a fairly definitive statement, and one that suggests the person making the statement believes that achievement to be absolute, or indicative of a point along the lines an "an absolute standard best ever".

Unadjusted figures are pointless, and exist for little reason other than to give the marketing bods ammunition with which to sell DVD's, sequels and spin-offs. They don't mean a thing.

Agreed on the whole, yet in itself still a fact nontheless. Potatos, potahtoes...

Lots and lots and lots and LOTS of people went to see Avatar in both formats. It is an historically successful film. What would be your honest guess as to the ratio of cinemagoers who came out thinking they'd been conned by the hype?

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Post #: 207

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 10:44:48 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18902
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

38.17% of filmgoers.

Thats my guess.

And what are you going to be really mad about now REALLYMAD?

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Post #: 208

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 10:50:39 PM

clownfoot

Posts: 7739
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

38.17% of filmgoers.

Thats my guess.

And what are you going to be really mad about now REALLYMAD?

Statistically, you should only use one decimal place. Rounded up that's 38.2%. FACT!

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Post #: 209

RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 31/3/2010 10:55:16 PM

Felix

Posts: 15691
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

Its also a FACT that thats not a ratio, its a percentage.

So you really meant that roughly 4 in 10 people didnt like it.

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Post #: 210