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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott

 
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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 10:37:51 AM   
garvielloken


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 10:40:34 AM   
garvielloken


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What a way to start a new page.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 2:15:52 PM   
spark1

 

Posts: 7124
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if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 2:32:50 PM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


Posts: 9313
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 4:13:10 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

Posts: 1004
Joined: 14/1/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD


quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.


Cameron was laying the ground work decades ago (T2: BATTLE ACROSS TIME), but I think Polar Express in 2004 started this current wave of studio narrative films being given wide releases in true color 3D.

< Message edited by King of Kafiristan -- 9/12/2013 4:21:33 PM >

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 4:21:09 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

Posts: 1004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

All it would add to Schindler's list is dimensionalilty, making the reality of what one sees on screen more immediate and immersive, rather than the look of 2d that personally serves to put up a mental wall between my senses (which include the perception of depth) and what is on screen, which in 2d in a crushed, flattened mono planar depiction what appeared before the camera lense.



Personally I think 3D is too distracting to be fully immersive. There's no majesty in it. If a film has succeeded in terms of writing, acting, photography, etc...then it has already succeeded in terms of immersiveness. People who bang on about the extra "dimensionality" (if that's even a word) strike me as perhaps being fairly simple-minded and dull, people whose imaginations cannot be engaged without being being spoon-fed. There's nothing more immersive than a beautifully rendered 2D image. It's not flat, it's bursting with detail and brimming with possibilities.

I tried watching The Hobbit in 3D but it just seemed so un-cinematic, so drab, so weirdly self-conscious of what it was trying to do to get my attention. I don't need gimmicks to get my attention, thank you very much. Let the story-telling do its job. Adding 3D is just like putting up visual signs where they're not needed. Imagine a gorgeous cinematic image of a road stretching off into the distance. Making it 3D is like putting up a garrish sign that's saying "THIS IS A ROAD! YOU ARE ON A ROAD!" I'm like, yeah...thanks, I can see that, stop shouting at me while I'm trying to watch a film, I'm not an idiot.

And I'm not a 3D "hater", as you have previously described us. I'm just generally indifferent, like a lot of nay-sayers here. What we 'hate' is the idea of having our choices eroded and being forced to conform to something we don't quite believe in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Proper 3D photography makes the distances and lay out of dark scenes more clear - see Pacific Rim 3D - though I must say the Dolby 3D theater I saw it at wasn't great, I'm mostly talking about the 3D I get on my flagship Panasonic 65" Plasma.


(reaches for the Southern Comfort)

quote:

The dark fights in Pacific Rim are fantastic in 3D though because it adds clarity, not subtracts it.


I watched Pacific Rim in 3D and I didn't have any issue with brightness or clarity. I just felt like I wasn't experiencing the film in its complete form. It wasn't as immersive as watching in 2D.



quote:


Personally I think 3D is too distracting to be fully immersive. There's no majesty in it. If a film has succeeded in terms of writing, acting, photography, etc...then it has already succeeded in terms of immersiveness. People who bang on about the extra "dimensionality" (if that's even a word) strike me as perhaps being fairly simple-minded and dull, people whose imaginations cannot be engaged without being being spoon-fed. There's nothing more immersive than a beautifully rendered 2D image. It's not flat, it's bursting with detail and brimming with possibilities.

I tried watching The Hobbit in 3D but it just seemed so un-cinematic, so drab, so weirdly self-conscious of what it was trying to do to get my attention. I don't need gimmicks to get my attention, thank you very much. Let the story-telling do its job. Adding 3D is just like putting up visual signs where they're not needed. Imagine a gorgeous cinematic image of a road stretching off into the distance. Making it 3D is like putting up a garrish sign that's saying "THIS IS A ROAD! YOU ARE ON A ROAD!" I'm like, yeah..


Oy, you're out of order! No need to insult people's intelligence. I'll say it's a matter of opinion, but I don't appreciate your tone.

Also I've worked in a movie theater and know about bulbs and brightness and the like. Here Ebert talks about this issue, and the fact that even theaters showing 2D films here in the states often have their movies set too dimly: http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/the-dying-of-the-light


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 4:52:29 PM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


Posts: 9313
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: PLANET G
quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD


quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.


Cameron was laying the ground work decades ago (T2: BATTLE ACROSS TIME), but I think Polar Express in 2004 started this current wave of studio narrative films being given wide releases in true color 3D.



i should have been more specific. When i said current wave i meant every studio rushing to get on the bandwagon in the last few years. This is because of one film alone, Avatar. The influence of this film was huge and it is because of the success of this film that we have so much 3D content now. Polar Express had very little influence in this area, despite being an amazing 3D experience.

< Message edited by DONOVAN KURTWOOD -- 9/12/2013 4:53:33 PM >


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 5:31:00 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8321
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Also I've worked in a movie theater and know about bulbs and brightness and the like. Here Ebert talks about this issue, and the fact that even theaters showing 2D films here in the states often have their movies set too dimly: http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/the-dying-of-the-light


That article seemed to me to be highlighting the fact that there are still significant issues caused primarily by 3D that are affecting 2D shows negatively. It doesn't seem to be a case that the lamp is being undercooked in 2D or 3D shows, rather that the tech necessary to present a 3D film is preventing 2D shows being played the way they should (with Sonys anyway, and I've never used them so can't comment on whether it's likely to be balls or not). Curiously, it is something that could probably be rectified with having trained, professional people on site to sort these and any other issues as they arise. In fact, I believe such people used to exist. They called them projectionists, and they were, somewhat ironically, deemed unnecessary once digital came about.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 5:33:27 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4308
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot
quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD


quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.


Cameron was laying the ground work decades ago (T2: BATTLE ACROSS TIME), but I think Polar Express in 2004 started this current wave of studio narrative films being given wide releases in true color 3D.


Yes, but it never really achieved any real momentum with the paying public until Avatar's actual release in 2009, that's the point.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 9/12/2013 5:34:44 PM >


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 5:34:52 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

Posts: 1004
Joined: 14/1/2012
From: The States

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD


quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.


Cameron was laying the ground work decades ago (T2: BATTLE ACROSS TIME), but I think Polar Express in 2004 started this current wave of studio narrative films being given wide releases in true color 3D.


Yes, but it never really achieved any actual momentum with the paying public until Avatar's actual release in 2009, that's the point.

It had increasing momentum from 2004 on, and then Avatar becoming the highest grossing movie of all time changed everything.

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Post #: 1360
RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 5:39:18 PM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4308
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan


quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD


quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


surely this current wave was kick started with Avatar in 2009. Only four years ago.


Cameron was laying the ground work decades ago (T2: BATTLE ACROSS TIME), but I think Polar Express in 2004 started this current wave of studio narrative films being given wide releases in true color 3D.


Yes, but it never really achieved any actual momentum with the paying public until Avatar's actual release in 2009, that's the point.

It had increasing momentum from 2004 on, and then Avatar becoming the highest grossing movie of all time changed everything.


There was very little momentum prior to its release, other than what was generated by the hype.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 6:49:02 PM   
AxlReznor

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/12/2010
From: Great Britain
From what I remember of the films released in 3D in the months leading up to Avatar, the selling point was, "go to see this in 3D, because it will be good when Avatar comes out"... which I found to be a particularly odd way of marketing the format.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 7:45:28 PM   
rich


Posts: 5189
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Neo Kobe

quote:

ORIGINAL: spark1

if the current digital 3d was a gimmick then it would faded away as did the trend in the 50s and 80s.

if must be over 10 years since this train started.


It IS fading though, give it a couple of years - the numbers are sliding away already.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 7:53:12 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18336
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/3d-film-revenue-in-uk-continues-to-fall

Apparently the gross is dropping year for year down 6% in a couple of years.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 8:43:21 PM   
musht


Posts: 1883
Joined: 21/1/2009
From: Oireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/3d-film-revenue-in-uk-continues-to-fall

Apparently the gross is dropping year for year down 6% in a couple of years.


What about revenue from Panasonic ZT60 65" plasma TV sales?

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 9:28:30 PM   
sanchia


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They are the best so they are well up.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 9/12/2013 10:13:08 PM   
Cool Breeze


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Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
3D is definetly on the way out.It gets a kickstart every once in a while when a major 3D film is a big success ( Gravity ) but in general it hasnt really caught on and 3D blu ray at home has only been taken up by extreme home cinema fanatics.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 11:53:00 AM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


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The Desolation of Smaug is looking very nice for 3D thrills and there are a lot of very interesting looking 3D titles on the way in 2014 and 2015. Cant wait to see what the future brings with regard to 3D content. These are exciting times! 2012 and 2013 have been awesome for 3D.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 12:37:04 PM   
shatnerhamster

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 19/3/2007

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD

The Desolation of Smaug is looking very nice for 3D thrills and there are a lot of very interesting looking 3D titles on the way in 2014 and 2015. Cant wait to see what the future brings with regard to 3D content. These are exciting times! 2012 and 2013 have been awesome for 3D.


Shirley, you can't be serious?
I recently saw Gravity in 3-D, to see if it lived up to the hype. (It didn't, but the 3-D was at least only occasionally distracting, and the overall experience only slightly worse than watching in 2-D). However, before the film there was a 3-D trailer for The Desolation of Smaug, which looked absolutely grindingly awful. Every second of that trailer looked hideously artificial and totally distracting, to the point where I cannot believe that anyone would even contemplate seeing that film in 3-D.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:00:16 PM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


Posts: 9313
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Yep, Unexpected Journey had excellent 3D and this one looks no different. Really strong 3D with great layers and depth. But obviously someone like you who hates 3D will remain unimpressed no matter how good the 3D is.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:07:49 PM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5113
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD

Yep, Unexpected Journey had excellent 3D and this one looks no different. Really strong 3D with great layers and depth. But obviously someone like you who hates 3D will remain unimpressed no matter how good the 3D is.


Hmm, dunno about that. I'm not much of a fan but I always want it to be good. I enjoyed the 3D in Gravity, Pacific Rim, Life Of Pi and Prometheus and thought it genuinely added something to all those films, but the trailer for the new Hobbit film looks appalling. And as for King of Whatever celebrating this hypothetical future where 3D reigns supreme and people who don't like it have no choice but to embrace it and if they don't it's their own fault because their eyes aren't clever enough....behave.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:22:37 PM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 8004
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives


quote:

ORIGINAL: DONOVAN KURTWOOD

Yep, Unexpected Journey had excellent 3D and this one looks no different. Really strong 3D with great layers and depth. But obviously someone like you who hates 3D will remain unimpressed no matter how good the 3D is.


Hmm, dunno about that. I'm not much of a fan but I always want it to be good. I enjoyed the 3D in Gravity, Pacific Rim, Life Of Pi and Prometheus and thought it genuinely added something to all those films, but the trailer for the new Hobbit film looks appalling. And as for King of Whatever celebrating this hypothetical future where 3D reigns supreme and people who don't like it have no choice but to embrace it and if they don't it's their own fault because their eyes aren't clever enough....behave.


Agree with this. If I ever find myself having to watch a film in 3D (due to there being no 2D viewings) I always hope it's good and want to enjoy it as it'd take a special kind of dumbass to go out of his way to not enjoy a film he'd paid more money to watch. I enjoyed the 3D immensely with Avatar, Hugo and Gravity but thought it was atrocious in Pirates! In an Adventure with Scientists and Avengers. From the trailer I saw of the new Hobbit film the 3D looks absolutely terrible and you couldn't pay me enough money to sit there for 3 hours to watch it in that format.

WETA seem to be dropping the ball quite a bit with the Hobbit films because as well as Desolation of Smaug having seemingly piss poor 3D the first Hobbit had some of the worst CGI I've seen in a big budget film since The Mummy Returns.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 10/12/2013 2:31:35 PM >


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:33:23 PM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


Posts: 9313
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Wow, people disagreeing with me on this forum, what a genuinely new and refreshing experience lol. Seriously though, each to their own, i think it looks great, you don't, yet somehow life goes on

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:49:52 PM   
DancingClown


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Joined: 8/1/2006
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To be fair they only seem to be disagreeing about the 3D in The Hobbit. Personally I haven't watched my copy of the extended edition in 3D yet because for me it's not consistent with the previous trilogy. I did try it out a little but it all just looked so phony and stage-bound, lacking the true epic depth and clarity of LOTR, which looked like a world that was actually lived-in as opposed to a video-game. I still really enjoy the 2D blu-ray, of course, which at least looks a bit more cinematic.

The only 3D I've had any time for so far is Hugo, where it was clever and subtle and un-intrusive. I guess it helps that it was created by a master craftsman who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of film.



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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 2:54:18 PM   
DONOVAN KURTWOOD


Posts: 9313
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: PLANET G
I absolutely love Hugo, looks great in 3D. If that impressed you, i highly recommend The Great Gatsby for a similarly effective use of 3D from a visionary director. I'm not saying Baz is as good as Marty, just that they have great visual styles. And perhaps these movies are a bit different from the usual 3D content.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott & General 3-D Discussion - 10/12/2013 7:08:45 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

Posts: 1004
Joined: 14/1/2012
From: The States
Cameron gets it:


Cameron: You canít fatigue the eye and you canít draw attention to it. People talk about it being gimmicky. What they really mean is you are putting more focus on the interesting stereoscopic illusions versus the moment in the narrative. The second you are not paying attention to it as narrative continuum, then you have just lost the battle. You have reminded people you are just watching something in 3D with glasses on. Thatís the last thing you want to do. What you want to do is let the 3D be a subconscious heightening of the experience. So, we use the depth to make the screen, whether itís a TV screen or movie screen a window. A window into a reality. The more you are popping stuff off peopleís foreheads, the more you are reminded itís artificial.

If you want to see that principle in action, check out Titanic 3D. This is not a plug for the movie, we are doing fine thanks. But if you want to see that principle, the first 2 hours of the movie, itís boy meets girl, nothing happens. You donít hit the iceberg until you are 2 hours in. Why is all that stuff so compelling and powerful in 3D, because there is this sense that you as the viewer, are intimately involved in the story. You are standing there in the room, you are on the ship.


-----

It's not about flash or gimicks - it's about turning a screen into a window. This is why I loath films that use 3d to throw stuff at the audience. They just don't get it.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott - 10/12/2013 7:11:40 PM   
King of Kafiristan

 

Posts: 1004
Joined: 14/1/2012
From: The States

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

To be fair they only seem to be disagreeing about the 3D in The Hobbit. Personally I haven't watched my copy of the extended edition in 3D yet because for me it's not consistent with the previous trilogy. I did try it out a little but it all just looked so phony and stage-bound, lacking the true epic depth and clarity of LOTR, which looked like a world that was actually lived-in as opposed to a video-game. I still really enjoy the 2D blu-ray, of course, which at least looks a bit more cinematic.

The only 3D I've had any time for so far is Hugo, where it was clever and subtle and un-intrusive. I guess it helps that it was created by a master craftsman who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of film.





I saw Hobbit in 2d and hated it - the empty plot, the weightless, endless hyperactive videogame action.

I haven't watched it in 3d because I don't really care to ever watch the movie again in the first place.

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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott & General 3-D Discussion - 11/12/2013 12:15:31 AM   
horribleives

 

Posts: 5113
Joined: 12/6/2009
From: The North

quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Cameron gets it:


Cameron: You canít fatigue the eye and you canít draw attention to it. People talk about it being gimmicky. What they really mean is you are putting more focus on the interesting stereoscopic illusions versus the moment in the narrative. The second you are not paying attention to it as narrative continuum, then you have just lost the battle. You have reminded people you are just watching something in 3D with glasses on. Thatís the last thing you want to do. What you want to do is let the 3D be a subconscious heightening of the experience. So, we use the depth to make the screen, whether itís a TV screen or movie screen a window. A window into a reality. The more you are popping stuff off peopleís foreheads, the more you are reminded itís artificial.

If you want to see that principle in action, check out Titanic 3D. This is not a plug for the movie, we are doing fine thanks. But if you want to see that principle, the first 2 hours of the movie, itís boy meets girl, nothing happens. You donít hit the iceberg until you are 2 hours in. Why is all that stuff so compelling and powerful in 3D, because there is this sense that you as the viewer, are intimately involved in the story. You are standing there in the room, you are on the ship.


-----

It's not about flash or gimicks - it's about turning a screen into a window. This is why I loath films that use 3d to throw stuff at the audience. They just don't get it.


But all these sensations you've described - lots of us already get them from 2D films.


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RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott & General 3-D Discussion - 11/12/2013 12:40:49 AM   
superdan


Posts: 8321
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

But all these sensations you've described - lots of us already get them from 2D films.



No, you don't understand Ives. People can only truly feel as though they are within a scene unless they have the sensation that the background is further away, or the foreground pointing at them, emphasised by manipulation through optical illusion. Because that's exactly what has held back picture books and graphic novels for generations and made pop-up books such a success, for example. The human brain cannot understand depth through a 2D image, we're not hardwired to perceive it unless it's pointing right at us. It's meant every story told on celluloid has ultimately been a failure, because no-one was truly invested in it without feeling as though they are really "standing there, in the room".


(in reply to horribleives)
Post #: 1379
RE: Mark Kermode's 3 D Boycott & General 3-D Discussion - 11/12/2013 9:43:33 AM   
Harry Tuttle


Posts: 8004
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.
quote:

ORIGINAL: King of Kafiristan

Cameron gets it:


Cameron: You canít fatigue the eye and you canít draw attention to it. People talk about it being gimmicky. What they really mean is you are putting more focus on the interesting stereoscopic illusions versus the moment in the narrative. The second you are not paying attention to it as narrative continuum, then you have just lost the battle. You have reminded people you are just watching something in 3D with glasses on. Thatís the last thing you want to do. What you want to do is let the 3D be a subconscious heightening of the experience. So, we use the depth to make the screen, whether itís a TV screen or movie screen a window. A window into a reality. The more you are popping stuff off peopleís foreheads, the more you are reminded itís artificial.

If you want to see that principle in action, check out Titanic 3D. This is not a plug for the movie, we are doing fine thanks. But if you want to see that principle, the first 2 hours of the movie, itís boy meets girl, nothing happens. You donít hit the iceberg until you are 2 hours in. Why is all that stuff so compelling and powerful in 3D, because there is this sense that you as the viewer, are intimately involved in the story. You are standing there in the room, you are on the ship.


-----

It's not about flash or gimicks - it's about turning a screen into a window. This is why I loath films that use 3d to throw stuff at the audience. They just don't get it.


The fact that you quote Cameron here to try and validate your opinion whilst doubting the validity of a Cameron quote that contradicts you in the 3D Bluray thread in DVD discussion is hilarious.

It's almost like you have no self awareness whatsoever.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 11/12/2013 9:44:20 AM >


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(in reply to King of Kafiristan)
Post #: 1380
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