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More Venom For Marvel - 8/10/2009 8:18:10 AM   
Empire Admin

 

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- 8/10/2009 8:18:10 AM   
crazymoviesdude

 

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He could be ok without spidey, but I think he should still be the villain, unless as you say, it's a lesser of two evils deal.

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Elektra take two? - 8/10/2009 8:49:12 AM   
Blyman

 

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Hopes aren't high, all sounds like a half-hearted attempt to milk some more money out of the Spidey franchise to me. The appointment of a ho-hum studio compatible director only worsens the prospect.

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Post #: 3
Trying to not be too sweeping in my reaction - 8/10/2009 9:13:43 AM   
fuzzcaminski

 

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I'm no purest who insists that characters have to stay utterly true to their original incarnation (just imagine if blade has made it to film as a 70's horror blacksplotation, as is it's original form), but the idea of Venom, who has consistently been one of Spidey's most evil and villainous of enemies is to be retconned in to a 'defender of the innocent' as though he's the big blue boy scout, just doesn't taste right to me. I mean, I understand it's partly to do with who wears the symbiote an' all, and even in his current incarnation in the thunderbolts he is an anti-hero, it still seems a little bit too hard to follow.

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RE: Trying to not be too sweeping in my reaction - 8/10/2009 10:02:31 AM   
oacbbaw

 

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Actually, in the comics Venom had a split personality - he defended the innocents because the symbiote picked up that quality from Peter Parker. Only Venom has such a hatred of Spiderman that it makes him forget that sometimes (as he tries to kill Spiderman he sometimes puts innocent lives at risk). So there was this weird tension in the character. It was Carnage who was the out and out psycho...

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Post #: 5
Get it right.. - 8/10/2009 10:02:41 AM   
WesB

 

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Any of the whinging fanboys remember "Venom: Lethal Protector"? No?

Learn first, then moan..

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Post #: 6
RE: Trying to not be too sweeping in my reaction - 8/10/2009 10:06:53 AM   
David Somerset

 

Posts: 231
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When are people going to learn that spin-offs don't work? I literally can't think of a single successful spin-off from a successful franchise. Oh except Caravan Of Courage: The Ewok Adventure. That was frickin' awesome. Neechawawa!

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Post #: 7
MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 10:24:25 AM   
Maca007

 

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In the recent Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 game and the comic run Civil War, Venom became a member of the Thunderbolts, a team of unlikely anti-heroes led by none other than Norman Osborn AKA The Green Goblin. They were employed by Iron Man to round up all costumed heroes that wouldn't sign up to the Super Human Registration Act. However, when Civil War lead to Secret Invasion (when the Skrulls invaded Earth) The Thunderbolts assisted in fending off the invasion and helping save the Earth. Now Venom is a member of the Dark Avengers, again lead by Norman Osborn (now known as The Iron Patriot) and is more like a pseudo Spiderman than Venom looking, hence the anti hero direction his spin off movie will go in...just a thought.

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RE: MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 10:41:59 AM   
sowasred2012


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Could work. Probably won't. If they're rebooting the character (to make up for the fact that they let Sam Raimi fucking VAPORIZE him, the only villain so far who he's made it impossible to come back for), then the whole origin could get a little confusing since Spidey is such an intrinsic part of it (Venom has Spidey's powers, and his whole design is 'spider' themed) and I doubt Sony/Avi Arad/whoever wants to tarnish the main Spidey series with any of this kind of confusion.

So then if they remove Spidey from his origin completely, you've pretty much got Spawn but with a spider motif. And we all know how the Spawn movie turned out.

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RE: MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 10:51:54 AM   
JIm R

 

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The only way this will work will be Venom v Carnage and for the studio to be brave and go the way of Watchmen and stuff 'audience expectation' or look at it through $ tinted specs and say, fuck it, let's make an 18 rated version and be able to do justice to the darker edges of these characters rather than be worried about 'test audiences, pandering to society, expanding the franchise' etc. simply make a one off film that lets fly.
 
The studio fucked Raimi over, they want to present Venom as he was written, well here is the chance.
 
Raimi is well shot of him frankly.

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Post #: 10
RE: MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 11:24:44 AM   
Scott_

 

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From: Leeds

quote:

ORIGINAL: JIm R

The only way this will work will be Venom v Carnage and for the studio to be brave and go the way of Watchmen and stuff 'audience expectation' or look at it through $ tinted specs and say, fuck it, let's make an 18 rated version and be able to do justice to the darker edges of these characters rather than be worried about 'test audiences, pandering to society, expanding the franchise' etc. simply make a one off film that lets fly.


This.

On the hand...I have no idea how this will work if I'm honest, Spiderman 3 whilst perfectly fine entertainment pretty much fucked up the Venom character and the ideas behind it (granted he was never referred to as Venom like...) I'd rather not see him as a hero, Venom is a badass, he's the opposite of Spiderman and should be used that way in a Spiderman film, not given his own. It would be more interesting that way.

Also Michael C. Hall as Carnage, you know it makes sense.

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Post #: 11
This is a bad idea - 8/10/2009 11:29:20 AM   
Marwood

 

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I've always liked Venom in the comics even though at times it seems that no-one knows what the hell to do with him.
Him being an antihero was tried in the comics for a while and it sucked. It really, really sucked. He's always best serving as a villain (for Spider-Man or anyone the government throws him at in more recent years).
I'm all for him making another (better appearance) in future Spidey films but giving him a spin-off like this is going to be crap, pure crap. If Sony and Marvel are trying to make up for how he was treated in Spidey 3 then they should just throw him back in the mix for 5 or 6 (as Raimi won't be having him pop in 4 - guaranteed).
In 3, the symbiote bonded with Eddie Brock Jnr. How about having any remains of it bond with Eddie Brock Snr who more closely resembles (physically and character wise) the original Eddie Brock from the comics? Venom's motivation was revenge against Spider-Man/Peter in the comics and having the father out to avenge the son is a nice twist and good way to incorporate the revenge angle much better than "he got me fired and stole my girl!" from Topher Grace.
Christ, how hard is it?

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Post #: 12
Venom: Lethal Protector - 8/10/2009 11:40:51 AM   
DeadCell79

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 8/6/2006
From: london
to be honest we all agree venom should have been the only Bad guy for spiderman in part 3 or at least it should have been in part 4 as his one of spidermans most toughest enemies ever, him and Lizard man would have been good Bad guy dynamics..

but since that ship has past and wont return we are left kinda annoyed at the venom spinoff with Venom as the Anti-Hero.

but since there is a venom comic series as him as the Anti-Hero (Venom: Lethal Protector) as "WesB" pointed out in a earlier comment,
then maybe they just might be able to pull it off.
the problem is everyones pesona about Venom is attached onto him being pure evil, so they will find it hard to see him as a Anti-Hero wich makes this movie a tough sell to the public.,


< Message edited by dead_cell79 -- 8/10/2009 11:41:50 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: This is a bad idea - 8/10/2009 11:48:42 AM   
DeadCell79

 

Posts: 108
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From: london
not a bad idea at all Mr Marwood,

Spiderman 3 should have been nothing but Spiderman and Venom battling it out . Sand Man was a Waste Man and a Waste of Space. it was like watching  Mummy returns

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Post #: 14
RE: This is a bad idea - 8/10/2009 12:10:17 PM   
JIm R

 

Posts: 9185
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From: Surrey
quote:

ORIGINAL: dead_cell79

not a bad idea at all Mr Marwood,

Spiderman 3 should have been nothing but Spiderman and Venom battling it out . Sand Man was a Waste Man and a Waste of Space. it was like watching  Mummy returns



Completely disagree with this view. Sam didn't want Venom anywhere near number 3, Venom was forced by Avi Arad and the studio chiefs onto Raimi purely to make $$$$$$$.
 
Raimi handled watching his prefered vision (Goblin conclusion + Sandman) get diluted, exceptionally well, holding in his anger and sadness, you can see it on the making docs from 3.
 
Sandman was well handled in 3, but yes errors in story did take place and plot points fell at the final hurdle because Raimi was given no room to manouvere and his ideas were dropped by the studio and they fucked him over, badly.
 
It was Arad that runied the possibilities of 3 not Raimi.
 
Venom should, if used, been given a two film story all of his own. Raimi never wanted him and I have to agree, in SR's films, the older. original villians have worked so much better.

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Post #: 15
RE: MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 12:12:08 PM   
shinysavage

 

Posts: 13
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sowasred2012

Could work. Probably won't. If they're rebooting the character (to make up for the fact that they let Sam Raimi fucking VAPORIZE him, the only villain so far who he's made it impossible to come back for), then the whole origin could get a little confusing since Spidey is such an intrinsic part of it (Venom has Spidey's powers, and his whole design is 'spider' themed) and I doubt Sony/Avi Arad/whoever wants to tarnish the main Spidey series with any of this kind of confusion.

So then if they remove Spidey from his origin completely, you've pretty much got Spawn but with a spider motif. And we all know how the Spawn movie turned out.



Was he vaporized? Think about it. About halfway through the film, Spidey throws a grenade at Harry Osborn, leaving him with mild facial scarring. At the end of the film, he throws a grenade at Venom, and apparently destroys him completely, not even leaving blood. I know Spider-Man 3 had a lot of flaws, but such basic continuity is surely not one of those flaws? I find it much more convincing to suppose that Venom swung out of there, badly injured, and has been patching himself up.

After all, as Nick Fury says in Ultimate Spider-Man (co-incidentally, when comforting Peter after Eddie/Venom has apparently been killed): 'A little unofficial rule we have in this business kid. If there isn't a body, they probably aren't dead.'

As for the spin-off, every version of Venom I've ever seen has been a villain, not an anti-hero. I admit, I'm not a dedicated comic reader, but this sounds like a bit of a bad idea to me. Wolverine: Origins surely showed us that no matter how loved and cool a character is, that doesn't always translate to a good film. I'll reserve judgement until this is actually more than a proposed idea though.

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Post #: 16
NOoooo!!! - 8/10/2009 2:50:06 PM   
leafie

 

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Good Venom - are you F&$£"ing sure!!! That has got to be the worst idea since Madonna tried to act in Shanghai Express!

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Post #: 17
For umptenth time... - 8/10/2009 5:04:34 PM   
bronco3114

 

Posts: 246
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From: London
Venom fans may have wanted Venom in Spiderman but not as an after thought in what was effectivley a mish-mash of the Sandman and Green Goblin arcs. Personally I'd much rather they just shelve Venom (and the Spiderman franchise) for a while and then come back work through the Venom story arc properly under the vision of someone else other than Rami (Fincher ideally for me if it's the Venom arc) who's taken it as far as he can.

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Post #: 18
Oh God - 8/10/2009 7:44:05 PM   
BOOOM

 

Posts: 6
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Such a heinously bad idea. It's like making the Joker the anti hero in his own film- he wouldn't work without Batman. Same applies here- Venom is Spidey's ultimate evil nemesis he cannot be made into an anti hero- he's supposed to be fucking evil and destroy Pete's life! Oh, morons. One day I'll be making the 'tough' decisions these execs face..

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Post #: 19
RE: MUA2/Civil War - 8/10/2009 9:20:04 PM   
sowasred2012


Posts: 359
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@shinysavage

Oh I thought about it, don't you worry - the guy was vaporised, you watch it and you'll definitely see that nobody swung out of it (pretty sure there's even a Doc Manhattan style flash of skeleton in there). I'm also aware of the inconsistency in Harry walking away from a similar attack with only a few facial scars (that healed pretty darn quickly), and it does nothing except make me angrier about the way Venom was treated in that movie.

Venom, at least while Eddie Brock was the host, was always an anti-hero that just hated Spider-Man and would occasionally forget his moral obligation to protect the innocent to go out of his way to attempt to kill Spidey. It was to do with Brock being religious I think. The symbiote is currently with Mac Gargan (formerly Scorpion), who is an out and out homicidal maniac, so the Venom you'll find in comics these days is way more violent and dangerous. This might be where some of the confusion between Venom being an anti-hero or villain is coming from.


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Ill wait for the dvd - 8/10/2009 9:32:50 PM   
Bates


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From: the realm between good and evil
spider man 3 has ruined the idea for me so i wont be watching it at the flicks.

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Post #: 21
- 8/10/2009 11:35:46 PM   
Bluehawk


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Venom in his own movie? Ouwch, I feel sorry for the scriptwrites. Well, a million monkeys could write Shakespeare, so, we'll see...

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Post #: 22
RE: - 9/10/2009 12:07:53 PM   
Jayseph

 

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Yup sowasred2012 is bang on the money. Eddie Brock's Venom was not the out an out psycho like so many people seem to think he was. However he did despise Peter Parker and Spiderman and this often made him forget himself, sometimes using innocents to get Spidey's attention. However he frequently found himself fighting alongside heroic characters for the side of good - see Tooth and Claw when he grudgingly worked with Wolverine or the obvious example of Maximum Carnage. The whole Lethal Protector side of things constantly had him attempting to protect the innocent though frequently going too far when battling thugs and brutalising them, further fuelling his 'nasty' reputation.

< Message edited by Jayseph -- 9/10/2009 3:15:32 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: RE: - 9/10/2009 1:05:46 PM   
jobloffski

 

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As per usual I have a suggestion for how to do this. My level of ignorance of the source material will shine through, but it's all about telling a story, and the source material is always there for people to then go to if the film appeals(and still there for the people who want 18 rated stuff from this kind of film and are never gonna get it due to the cost of such movies).

Firstly, TDK demonstrated just how dark a 12 rated film can be made to feel, suggesting much darker things than ever made it to the screen (the Joker cutting opening one of his hoods and putting a bomb inside, for example).

Secondly, play the story as a tragedy. The main character encounters the symbiote , and in a kind of spin of Spidey learning to use his powers in Raimi's first movie, go with the exileration, fun and freedom the power affords him. But there is a subltly planted seed: the main character is gently becoming more and more sarcastic as the story progresses and when he realises there is another 'being' competing for conteol of him, he tries to fight it, loses and Venom goes on the rampage (adding tragedy and scares to the tone).

By now we're some way past the halfway mark of the film, and it has become a 'horror' toned movie and the audience while still being thrilled don't know just how far the gleeful venom is going to go.

Intoduce spidey, but viewed from Venom's perspective, a fast moving, tough as nails hindrance. Spidey is very much peripheral and shown from an opponents perspctive and therefore very very fast. Not so fast that we can't tell its spidey, but it's spidey, and definitely not Peter Parker in this film.

This (relatively minor) aspect of the running time of the film gets blown aside by the emergence of Carnage and (in time honoured fashion) spidey takes a terribly brutal battering, the shocking sight of which brings the main characters personality back from its dark place, as (perhaps) peter parker peeps through the characterisation in this film...exhaustedly and weakly, begging for help ("Eddie...Eddie....help me...

We don't ususally see this sort of thing, so the emotional note that persuades the human in venom to take on carnage can be devastating for the audience too, and the difficult sell of Venom as heroic is achieved by having a coherent character arc, from the innocent at the start, to the villain, to the semi-redeemed antihero by the end, because it is a lesser of two evils situation for the last quarter (or so of the film). And using spidey to facilitate the change in tone avoids the scriptwriters having to pull something out their arses (and avoiding the 'memory erasing adamantium bullets' type of bullshit from Wolverine, a plot device required because the film didn't go down the (more realistic route) of psychological amnesia resulting from Logan realising what he was, and what he had done and the mind protecting him from insanity by suppressing the memories he couldn't deal with).


If it works, then (and only then), for sequels posit the Venom of the Franchise as a defender of innocents, a heroic pose that may, at any time, be compromised by the re-emergence of the Venom character, so while the heroic side would triumph, there is the added dramatic impetus of never knowing what the main character will actually do, because he could conceivably 'lose it' at any time.

Anyway, blah, blah, blah, etc.

< Message edited by jobloffski -- 9/10/2009 1:23:07 PM >


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Post #: 24
Spidey 3 reboot - 9/10/2009 1:32:19 PM   
mrfield

 

Posts: 1
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Just admit failure and remake Spiderman 3. There was more wrong with it than just the inclusion of Venom. In my opinion they should have just used the Goblin jnr/Sandman set up and kept the brock storyline brewing and building with tension. Then the ending of the film should have been the creation of Venom, as a cliffhanger to the 4th film all of his own.

Other things wrong with Spidey 3:
1. The effects. It felt, and looked like, I was watching a computer game at times. Case in point; the Sandman fight when he and Spidey meet for the first time.
2. The stupid kiddie comments at the end "awesome", "wicked cool". God only knows who thought that was a good idea.
3. The script. Among other things, Harry's butler conveniently breaking his vow of silence about the manner in which his father was killed. At this point I was literally fuming. Such woeful scriptwriting. To paraphrase Tom Cruise, a nutless monkey could have done that job.
4. The "darkness". Those 10 minutes of the film where he goes off the boil are just unwatchable. Superman 3 did a better job of portraying the dark side of it's hero.
5. The American flag bit.

There's so much more but I'd be here for ages.

I know this is a Venom-based post, I just wanted to point out that Spidey 3 was a terrible letdown on many levels that I believe the director should have had control over, despite the inclusion of Venom.

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Post #: 25
RE: More Venom For Marvel - 9/10/2009 3:14:59 PM   
Kazuya


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From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
I'd definitely like a standalone Venom flick. Not with Topher Grace in the lead obviously, I like him as an actor, funny on That 70s Show, good in Traffic and in Good Company. But of course he was horribly miscast for Spidey 3 (with a poorly written character added).

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Post #: 26
Oh Dear God - 10/10/2009 10:10:51 PM   
pilchbts

 

Posts: 1
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This is the geekiest message board I've ever seen in my life. Dear god. You should all be ashamed. Anyway, I love spider-man. When I say the movie was coming out, I got excited just like you. Loved the movie. Spiderman 2 - loved it even more. Spiderman 3 was excruciatingly bad, and to this day I still want those three hours of my life back. Can't we just forget that it ever happened?

As far as a Venom movie is concerned, the words 'horse'. 'flogging', 'dead' and 'a' come to mind. Rearrange them into whichever order you wish.

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Post #: 27
Just stop it... - 11/10/2009 4:03:23 PM   
lukeynemo

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 14/3/2006
Spidey vs Venom is a good idea badly executed. That goes without saying. Venom on his own is just a flat-out bad idea. It's like the Hulk without the heart, and the Hulk films were pretty bad, so this will be even worse.

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Post #: 28
RE: This is a bad idea - 13/10/2009 1:35:15 PM   
smass101

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 3/6/2007

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marwood
In 3, the symbiote bonded with Eddie Brock Jnr. How about having any remains of it bond with Eddie Brock Snr who more closely resembles (physically and character wise) the original Eddie Brock from the comics? Venom's motivation was revenge against Spider-Man/Peter in the comics and having the father out to avenge the son is a nice twist and good way to incorporate the revenge angle much better than "he got me fired and stole my girl!" from Topher Grace.
Christ, how hard is it?


This is idea of the year mate. Absolutely fantastic way to bring the Eddie/Venom from the comics into the franchise with an even better revenge motivation. EB senior knows his son was killed by Spiderman and it's eating him up, the remains of the symbiote escape from the College lab and "sniff" him out, follow his hatred etc and - bang! The bigger, stronger, nastier version of Venom with the added bonus of actually having something to be angry about rather than being crap at taking photos and losing his bird, Love it.
Fits in perfectly too especially since Topher's Venom was never referred to by name.

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Post #: 29
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