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RE: Superman Thread - 22/11/2011 2:03:18 PM   
Cool Breeze


Posts: 2351
Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The tone was all over the place. On the one hand you had Superman being fun and charming, and the music being all upbeat. But on the other hand, the movies colour grading was grey. It looked like they filmed it in Glasgow.

Then you kick off the film with a weird sexual thing with Lex and an old lady - which just felt out of place. The beating Superman gets is as far away from comic books as possible, and reaches around to be cruel. Remember, this is a movie which is suppose to link up with the first two Superman films. This is suppose to be in the Richard Donner universe. These things feel like they have trampled in from another movie.

Everything feels off balance - I think this is connected to my point about the Kent character. The filmmakers talked about how much they wanted to make a film in the Donner universe, but you constantly see them trying to run away from the light, fun feeling that those films had, even in their darkest moments. They weren't confident that audiences would respond to light and fun, when the best character moment in the film is Superman telling the plane passangers about how safe air travel is. That is the only moment that feels like it comes from the Donner world. And it should, being as it is cribbed from the first film.



I agree with much of what you said here.In particular about it supposed to fit in with the Donner universe.The biggest inconsistency is the misrepresentation of Supermans character.At the end of Superman 2,his character arc is pretty much complete.He has accepted his destiny as earths protector and the fact that he can never be truly human and have a normal life.At the end of that film he even says to the president ''sorry iv been away so long,ill never let you down again''.

Bryan Singer would then have us beleive that Superman would then fuck off away from earth for YEARS.Ridiculous.

And the whole real estate scheme by Luthor to make money by killing BILLIONS of people? How the fuck did he expect to make money from that? Luthor is a criminal who has now just escalated himself to mass terrorist by causing huge enviromental damage.Did he seriously not expect that he would now be the most wanted man on earth?


_____________________________

'' Iv played Oskar Schindler, Michael Collins, Rob Roy Mcgregor, even ZEUS for gods sake! No one is going to believe me to be a green grocer! ''

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 91
RE: Superman Thread - 14/12/2011 12:58:36 PM   
The Hooded Man


Posts: 2773
Joined: 12/7/2006
There was an awful lot in Returns that was lifted from Donner's original film from the montage of Superman fighting crime to Luthor's plot but I think that was kind of the point - it was a remake masquerading as a sequel see also Tron Legacy. I liked Routh's performance and Spacey gave us a Luthor who wasn't the bumbling clown that Gene Hackman offered us.

_____________________________

Counting the minutes until the over zealous mods lock this thread too.

(in reply to Cool Breeze)
Post #: 92
RE: Superman Thread - 14/12/2011 2:41:00 PM   
fuzzy


Posts: 1889
Joined: 30/10/2007
From: Grizzly Flats
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Hooded Man

There was an awful lot in Returns that was lifted from Donner's original film from the montage of Superman fighting crime to Luthor's plot but I think that was kind of the point - it was a remake masquerading as a sequel see also Tron Legacy. I liked Routh's performance and Spacey gave us a Luthor who wasn't the bumbling clown that Gene Hackman offered us.


Strange, but I liked Routh's Clark Kent but thought his Superman was meh. Thinking of it, it's probably because he was doing his best Reeve Clark Kent impression - the voice was spookily accurate.

(in reply to The Hooded Man)
Post #: 93
RE: Superman Thread - 14/12/2011 7:09:06 PM   
Cool Breeze


Posts: 2351
Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Hooded Man

There was an awful lot in Returns that was lifted from Donner's original film from the montage of Superman fighting crime to Luthor's plot but I think that was kind of the point - it was a remake masquerading as a sequel see also Tron Legacy. I liked Routh's performance and Spacey gave us a Luthor who wasn't the bumbling clown that Gene Hackman offered us.


Hackman was excellent as Luthor.He provided a lot of good laughs in the films he was in but was still a formidable adversary.And at least his earthquake land grab scheme made SOME bit of sense!


_____________________________

'' Iv played Oskar Schindler, Michael Collins, Rob Roy Mcgregor, even ZEUS for gods sake! No one is going to believe me to be a green grocer! ''

(in reply to The Hooded Man)
Post #: 94
RE: Superman Thread - 29/1/2012 6:08:29 AM   
Sutty


Posts: 3552
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: the front row
Re-watched the Donner cut of Superman 2 recently. Still prefer it to Lesters cut for many reasons. Although entertaining as a kid, once I knew more - and better - I realised that the laser beams from the palm of the hands/throwing of magic "S's" an such like were NOT Supermanesque at all. Donners, unsuprisingly, is much truer to its source material. Some of the dialogue is really smart and quippy, almost a throw back to the 50's in its sensibility.
And I love Luthors calling of Zod. Your emmanence, Your Turgidness etc, etc.
And Kal-Els final conversation with his father is some of the best acting and most dramatic themes in the entire series of films.

Lester can kiss my ass!

_____________________________

"Lord, make me your instrument of peace. Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is darkness, light."

"When you're pushed, killin's as easy as breathin'"

(in reply to Cool Breeze)
Post #: 95
RE: Superman Thread - 29/1/2012 3:11:53 PM   
Spaldron


Posts: 10485
Joined: 6/10/2006
From: Chair

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sutty

Re-watched the Donner cut of Superman 2 recently. Still prefer it to Lesters cut for many reasons. Although entertaining as a kid, once I knew more - and better - I realised that the laser beams from the palm of the hands/throwing of magic "S's" an such like were NOT Supermanesque at all. Donners, unsuprisingly, is much truer to its source material. Some of the dialogue is really smart and quippy, almost a throw back to the 50's in its sensibility.
And I love Luthors calling of Zod. Your emmanence, Your Turgidness etc, etc.
And Kal-Els final conversation with his father is some of the best acting and most dramatic themes in the entire series of films.

Lester can kiss my ass!


Agreed although I think Kent's 'reveal' to Lois was better in the Lester version (perhaps because the Donner version was test footage). I also miss the drowning sequence and Zod's attack on the hick town which wasn't in the Donner cut, but overall his cut is superior and more focus on the character and less on silliness,

I wish they had more money for the opening title sequence though as it looks really cheap.

_____________________________

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.

(in reply to Sutty)
Post #: 96
RE: Superman Thread - 28/11/2012 6:49:09 PM   
TomTron


Posts: 874
Joined: 2/10/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sutty

Re-watched the Donner cut of Superman 2 recently. Still prefer it to Lesters cut for many reasons. Although entertaining as a kid, once I knew more - and better - I realised that the laser beams from the palm of the hands/throwing of magic "S's" an such like were NOT Supermanesque at all. Donners, unsuprisingly, is much truer to its source material. Some of the dialogue is really smart and quippy, almost a throw back to the 50's in its sensibility.
And I love Luthors calling of Zod. Your emmanence, Your Turgidness etc, etc.
And Kal-Els final conversation with his father is some of the best acting and most dramatic themes in the entire series of films.

Lester can kiss my ass!


Agreed although I think Kent's 'reveal' to Lois was better in the Lester version (perhaps because the Donner version was test footage). I also miss the drowning sequence and Zod's attack on the hick town which wasn't in the Donner cut, but overall his cut is superior and more focus on the character and less on silliness,

I wish they had more money for the opening title sequence though as it looks really cheap.


A cut of the film that would have Lester's reveal and Lester's ending put into Donner's cut would be overall better. Think the 'magic kiss' is more tolerable than him flying backwards around the world, again.

(in reply to Spaldron)
Post #: 97
RE: Superman Thread - 28/11/2012 10:20:04 PM   
kumar


Posts: 5227
Joined: 2/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Spaldron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sutty

Re-watched the Donner cut of Superman 2 recently. Still prefer it to Lesters cut for many reasons. Although entertaining as a kid, once I knew more - and better - I realised that the laser beams from the palm of the hands/throwing of magic "S's" an such like were NOT Supermanesque at all. Donners, unsuprisingly, is much truer to its source material. Some of the dialogue is really smart and quippy, almost a throw back to the 50's in its sensibility.
And I love Luthors calling of Zod. Your emmanence, Your Turgidness etc, etc.
And Kal-Els final conversation with his father is some of the best acting and most dramatic themes in the entire series of films.

Lester can kiss my ass!


Agreed although I think Kent's 'reveal' to Lois was better in the Lester version (perhaps because the Donner version was test footage). I also miss the drowning sequence and Zod's attack on the hick town which wasn't in the Donner cut, but overall his cut is superior and more focus on the character and less on silliness,

I wish they had more money for the opening title sequence though as it looks really cheap.


A cut of the film that would have Lester's reveal and Lester's ending put into Donner's cut would be overall better. Think the 'magic kiss' is more tolerable than him flying backwards around the world, again.



The reversing time thing (again) was the worst thing about the Donner cut - pretty much negates what happens in the film given the villains end up back in the phantom zone and nothing in the film really happens. What make it worse is Singers intention of Returns being a semi-sequel to Donners version - things like Lois' son doesnt make much sense when you factor in Donners cut. Its silly, not to mention the film is just average.


_____________________________

"Darth Silas - I love Craig as Bond too. Genius. "- Jackmansgirl 15/7/2008

Last films watched:

The Road - 4/5
Chronicle - 4/5
Twilight Breaking Dawn p1 - 1/5
Warrior - 5/5
Super 8 - 5/5
Paranormal Activity 3 - 3/5
MI 4 - 2/5

(in reply to TomTron)
Post #: 98
RE: Superman Thread - 3/12/2012 1:28:43 PM   
Sutty


Posts: 3552
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: the front row
Superman 2 - The Donner Cut is NOT an average movie! No way!!

I do kind of agree that the turning back time at the end negates all that has gone before because other than to Superman, nothing happened to anyone else. It is a bit like Dallas when Bobby walks out of the shower and you realise the entire season was a dream. It does strip away the emotional involvement and leaves you feeling slightly cheated.

But it is a very good film. Once moment I love is when Superman pushes the bus off the top of him to reveal his "S" emblazoned chest. Very cool.

_____________________________

"Lord, make me your instrument of peace. Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is darkness, light."

"When you're pushed, killin's as easy as breathin'"

(in reply to kumar)
Post #: 99
RE: Superman Thread - 3/12/2012 10:25:44 PM   
kumar


Posts: 5227
Joined: 2/10/2005
My bad, wasnt clear at all, I was calling Returns average . Donner cut really is awesome, despite the turn back time rubbish.

_____________________________

"Darth Silas - I love Craig as Bond too. Genius. "- Jackmansgirl 15/7/2008

Last films watched:

The Road - 4/5
Chronicle - 4/5
Twilight Breaking Dawn p1 - 1/5
Warrior - 5/5
Super 8 - 5/5
Paranormal Activity 3 - 3/5
MI 4 - 2/5

(in reply to Sutty)
Post #: 100
RE: Superman Thread - 5/12/2012 3:29:37 PM   
Cool Breeze


Posts: 2351
Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
So is the Donner cut of Superman 2 not in the new box set but the god awful Returns is? Criminal.

_____________________________

'' Iv played Oskar Schindler, Michael Collins, Rob Roy Mcgregor, even ZEUS for gods sake! No one is going to believe me to be a green grocer! ''

(in reply to kumar)
Post #: 101
RE: Superman Thread - 6/12/2012 12:36:16 PM   
The Hooded Man


Posts: 2773
Joined: 12/7/2006
Has anyone asked Donner how he would have finished Superman II if he had been allowed to finish the job as the turn back time thing was used in the first film? Or was he off the film altogether before they made decision to use turn back time ending for the first film?

_____________________________

Counting the minutes until the over zealous mods lock this thread too.

(in reply to Cool Breeze)
Post #: 102
RE: Superman Thread - 11/2/2013 9:40:40 AM   
Sutty


Posts: 3552
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: the front row
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cool Breeze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The tone was all over the place. On the one hand you had Superman being fun and charming, and the music being all upbeat. But on the other hand, the movies colour grading was grey. It looked like they filmed it in Glasgow.

Then you kick off the film with a weird sexual thing with Lex and an old lady - which just felt out of place. The beating Superman gets is as far away from comic books as possible, and reaches around to be cruel. Remember, this is a movie which is suppose to link up with the first two Superman films. This is suppose to be in the Richard Donner universe. These things feel like they have trampled in from another movie.

Everything feels off balance - I think this is connected to my point about the Kent character. The filmmakers talked about how much they wanted to make a film in the Donner universe, but you constantly see them trying to run away from the light, fun feeling that those films had, even in their darkest moments. They weren't confident that audiences would respond to light and fun, when the best character moment in the film is Superman telling the plane passangers about how safe air travel is. That is the only moment that feels like it comes from the Donner world. And it should, being as it is cribbed from the first film.



I agree with much of what you said here.In particular about it supposed to fit in with the Donner universe.The biggest inconsistency is the misrepresentation of Supermans character.At the end of Superman 2,his character arc is pretty much complete.He has accepted his destiny as earths protector and the fact that he can never be truly human and have a normal life.At the end of that film he even says to the president ''sorry iv been away so long,ill never let you down again''.

Bryan Singer would then have us beleive that Superman would then fuck off away from earth for YEARS.Ridiculous.

And the whole real estate scheme by Luthor to make money by killing BILLIONS of people? How the fuck did he expect to make money from that? Luthor is a criminal who has now just escalated himself to mass terrorist by causing huge enviromental damage.Did he seriously not expect that he would now be the most wanted man on earth?



and yet you have no problem with Batman becoming a Howard Hughes style recluse for 8 years after the death of Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent... Something that seems so far removed from his character that it borders on ridiculous.

_____________________________

"Lord, make me your instrument of peace. Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is darkness, light."

"When you're pushed, killin's as easy as breathin'"

(in reply to Cool Breeze)
Post #: 103
RE: Superman Thread - 11/2/2013 3:32:53 PM   
kumar


Posts: 5227
Joined: 2/10/2005
With Batman though he had a genuine cause to do so by the end of TDK - hes set himself up to be Dents killer, the whole judicial system is after him, so its understandable he went into "hiding". How would he do his job otherwise? Another costume, masquerading as another hero would be too obvious. Having said that though, I guess Superman had a solid enough motive to go back. Though he knows his homeworld is destroyed he goes back out of curiosity (a human side of him), but it was clunky, and the film starts of that way with a paragraph of text on screen if i remember right.

I caught it on BBC 3 the other night again and I still think it is a little boring. The actual acts of Superman flow quite nicely from the Donner films, flying and picking and there are some nice scenes with Superman flying away in tears, and the flight poses were done identically to Reeves which I thought was an awesome throwback. It is a solid character piece I think but ultimately it doesnt sit right even with the Donner films. And though the score is occasionally rousing, not once little scene matched the one in Superman II where the woman is screaming for her baby under a falling complex, Supes swoops in and saves the day, looks back and smiles. I miss Reeve, his portrayal was excellent.

While I wouldnt have minded a "wrath of khan-esque" Superman Returns 2, Im so glad Synder and co have taken it elsewhere. We have a new universe with no continuity issues, and we can get a film with some real OOMF at last!

edit: also some of the sets on Returns are damn awful looking

< Message edited by kumar -- 11/2/2013 3:33:20 PM >


_____________________________

"Darth Silas - I love Craig as Bond too. Genius. "- Jackmansgirl 15/7/2008

Last films watched:

The Road - 4/5
Chronicle - 4/5
Twilight Breaking Dawn p1 - 1/5
Warrior - 5/5
Super 8 - 5/5
Paranormal Activity 3 - 3/5
MI 4 - 2/5

(in reply to Sutty)
Post #: 104
RE: Superman Thread - 13/2/2013 7:47:17 PM   
Sutty


Posts: 3552
Joined: 6/6/2006
From: the front row
I don't wanna get in to a Superman Returns is great/awful debate because we all know this has been done before. But...

I do like this movie. I don't think its boring, but it moves at a different pace for a comic book movie for sure. And I'm not blind to the movies flaws. For me Jimmy Olsen could have been taken out of the movie completely, the actor was so annoying. Lois Lane was woefully miscast and - I found - completely unlikeable. I really didn't like her dismissive/mickey taking wave to clark when they are both stood in the lift. Felt so out of character. But I thought Routh was great, and the more I see Spacey as Luthor the more I appreciate his turn. The script, at times, is excellent and far and above more than you would normally expect from a superhero movie. I think what some people didnt like was that Superman was a rather soft character. He never comes close to getting angry (ala Superman The Movie), and you never really felt he was in jeopardy from a stronger being. But I do think that the good outweighs the bad and it is certainly worthy of the Superman legacy.

_____________________________

"Lord, make me your instrument of peace. Where there is hatred, let me bring love.
Where there is darkness, light."

"When you're pushed, killin's as easy as breathin'"

(in reply to kumar)
Post #: 105
RE: Superman Thread - 14/2/2013 12:37:11 AM   
rich


Posts: 4945
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Neo Kobe
In the end all I can say is that the good parts were done in Superman: The Movie, and they were done better it's still my favourite in the series. The part where Supes finds Louis in the car near the end, Reeve is just immense.

_____________________________

Meanwhile...

(in reply to Sutty)
Post #: 106
RE: Superman Thread - 9/3/2013 1:32:23 PM   
solidtrislack

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 25/2/2013
From: LONDON
To be honest i think the new Superman movie is going to rule. I tried to rent Superman Returns online the other day but could not as my xbox account had been hacked. I did however rent all 4 previous movies during xmas and new years and really enjoyed them all. Marlon Brando was amazing in the opening scene for the first movie and he really set the pace for the following films. So yeah,  Man Of Steel is going to smash it.

_____________________________

" WHOS DAT?....WOULDNT EAT YOU!!!....WOULDNT PUT YOU IN A FILLET BURGER!!! "

(in reply to rich)
Post #: 107
RE: Superman Thread - 5/6/2013 3:34:05 PM   
Cool Breeze


Posts: 2351
Joined: 9/11/2011
From: The Internet
Everything wrong with Superman Returns in 6 mins..http://youtu.be/0oYH8OVseQE



_____________________________

'' Iv played Oskar Schindler, Michael Collins, Rob Roy Mcgregor, even ZEUS for gods sake! No one is going to believe me to be a green grocer! ''

(in reply to solidtrislack)
Post #: 108
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