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RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 27/4/2012 10:53:46 PM   
Lang


Posts: 1449
Joined: 15/8/2006
From: The Wall, Aberdeenshire

Poor bastards being bullied into submission!!

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Post #: 691
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 28/4/2012 5:32:15 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Dunfermline hadn't won at home all season. Then AFC turned up and hand them a 3-0 win.



We are awful.
.
It's either laugh or break stuff. I've nae o'er muckle stuff.

Another season o' Brown.

Sigh.

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"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

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Post #: 692
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 28/4/2012 11:35:16 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
quote:

ONE rule for Rangers and Celtic.


Another one for the rest.

Non-Old Firm fans have believed it for years.

But last night it was Ally McCoist who claimed that’s the way Scottish football works.

And what’s more, that’s the way it simply MUST be.

McCoist insists he accepts Rangers should be punished for the way they have gone about their business in recent times.

But kicking them out of the SPL?

Don’t make the Ibrox boss laugh.

Rangers might be on their knees financially, but McCoist reckons the fact they are due stiff sanctions DOESN’T mean they should be hit with them.

He said: “In an ideal world, whatever the punishment should be for Rangers, that should be it.

“If it’s Division Three, then great. That should be the punishment.

“But Scottish football is not an ideal world. These fans, thankfully, won’t get their wish. Because they might think it’s the right thing to do, but it wouldn’t suit them.

“It’s a contradiction for me to say it, but Rangers and Celtic are special cases. Whether we like that or not, they are special cases. Because they are the main two clubs, by far, in Scottish football.

“Fans of other clubs can say ‘don’t care, send them down,’ and that might be right.

“But it’s not going to help our game, so we all have a problem.

“Do we do the right thing? Or do we do the right thing for the game? Everyone has their own opinion.

“But we all have a dilemma here. Is it the right thing to do for Scottish football? No.

“It might be the right thing to do morally. But is it really the right thing to do for Scottish football? Obviously not.”


The Scottish Sun, ladies and gents.

Every single day the media and at least one of those bloody clubs do something to remind me how much I loathe the unholy trinity.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

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Post #: 693
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 29/4/2012 1:24:12 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 3971
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh
So sending Rangers down is the moral thing to do - but not the right thing?

And some wonder why people have abandoned the game in their droves....



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Post #: 694
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 29/4/2012 2:03:22 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
Edit... made an utter arse of a post which doesn't really make sense to me


< Message edited by London Calling -- 29/4/2012 2:05:03 PM >

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Post #: 695
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 29/4/2012 6:54:37 PM   
timomouse


Posts: 833
Joined: 12/3/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

The Scottish Sun, ladies and gents.

Every single day the media and at least one of those bloody clubs do something to remind me how much I loathe the unholy trinity.


I think that's more just Ally who's flown off the deep end this week, in all fairness. Going crazy at the SFA, refusing to apologise - he's managed to out-arse Neil Lennon, which is quite an acheivement. At least Lenny only managed to get people to threaten himself - Ally's just thrown himself into the arms of the lunatics.

Anyway, I've spent the past three days making a series of blogs on financial stuff to do with Rangers. Linked below, but beware, they are fairly long.

http://thefootballlife.tumblr.com/post/21870580357/the-hidden-cost-of-rangers
http://thefootballlife.tumblr.com/post/22009913017/the-hidden-profit-of-rangers
http://thefootballlife.tumblr.com/post/22041540158/rangers-balancing-your-books

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 696
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 3/5/2012 11:52:19 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Dons are mince. Really mince. So mince that some of the brains and labourers that put together our semi-final display left before half-time. Not just mince, but apparently disinterested mince. The hardest of hardcore sacking it off. Crowd numbers collapsing. The SPL suits can witter about TV deals all they want. Fans keep the game alive. There's only so much BS that even fitba fans will take.

When the other Willie Miller gets his version of them into next season's SPL Pittodrie will be little more than vacant.

Meanwhile Frankie Howard's 2p in the £ mob are heading for a CL qualifier windfall. Will they use any of it to help out any of the surviving businesses they screwed? Not bloody likely. I'd rather have had the pikeys *spit* make it, but in true jute style they collapsed.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

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Post #: 697
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 3/5/2012 7:53:50 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
I don't understand a word of that 

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Post #: 698
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 3/5/2012 9:50:30 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
Welcome to our world

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Post #: 699
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 3/5/2012 10:50:31 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
'kinell mins.

If ye canna get yer heids roon my elegant prose Willie Miller only kens fit ye made o' Burns. Or Grassic Gibbon. Or Barbour.

Fit in the hell d'ye learn in the squeil?

Nae eese ava.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

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Post #: 700
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 4/5/2012 1:10:42 PM   
Chief


Posts: 7773
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

'kinell mins.

If ye canna get yer heids roon my elegant prose Willie Miller only kens fit ye made o' Burns. Or Grassic Gibbon. Or Barbour.

Fit in the hell d'ye learn in the squeil?

Nae eese ava.


I'm a Fifer and understand every word of that nae bother.

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 701
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 3:09:33 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.
"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.
"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."

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Post #: 702
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 9:36:16 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
That Killie boy is an eejit.

If the other chairmen follow suit then the SPL dies. It should die too.

I'd be delighted if the Dons resigned and applied to the SFL, and if we ever won the 1st Division refusing promotion to the SPL.

The longer Stewartie Milne hud's his wheesht the more worried I am.

Needs the proper clubs (the Killie boy has shown Killie are not one under his "stewardship") like Hibs, Utd and the Dons to speak out now.

Needed Cosgrove (Legend and utterer of my sig) to blow the ludicrous notion that an OF-free Scottish league would be LOI dross - SPL is 10th best attended, on average, top league in Europe. Without them it's still 10th. The first Div has higher attendances than the LOI, some in Div 2 match it. Spiers was peddling this dross, on the national broadcaster. Reverting to type after AlexThomo outed the lamb chomper.

If Scottish football is to actually be a sport again it looks like it's going to need external forces to make it happen. HMRC, UEFA, FIFA... please, for the love of phuck, save us from the morons strangling our game.

Ach these wild swings between apathy and fury are nae eese. Enough to drive a Don drink. Even more. Again.

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Post #: 703
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 10:15:54 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54575
Joined: 1/10/2005
Is it not just a sport now that 2 of the teams tend to win because they play it better? So you want external forces to remove winning teams so others get a chance? I wonder if they've ever thought of trying that on Usain Bolt. Get the taxman on him so the other kids can have a shot too. Although there's a clearer argument that the 100m sprint is bigger than one man.

And genuinely - if it's a fallacy that Scottish football will drift to the doldrums without the money the OF bring in, them someone should make a clear financial case to demonstrate it, based on the money that they could bring in from the broadcasters and sponsorship. If all's still good, fair enough - kick 'em out.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 704
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 10:43:33 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Is it not just a sport now that 2 of the teams tend to win because they play it better? So you want external forces to remove winning teams so others get a chance? I wonder if they've ever thought of trying that on Usain Bolt. Get the taxman on him so the other kids can have a shot too. Although there's a clearer argument that the 100m sprint is bigger than one man.

And genuinely - if it's a fallacy that Scottish football will drift to the doldrums without the money the OF bring in, them someone should make a clear financial case to demonstrate it, based on the money that they could bring in from the broadcasters and sponsorship. If all's still good, fair enough - kick 'em out.



And what, pray tell, facilitates their playing it better? Better players. And how, pray tell, do they procure the services of these better players? Offering more money than any in the league, of course. Ah-ha! But is their paying of this money legitimate?

In the case of the blue cheek: nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

'kinell.

A sporting chance in a sporting contest would be a novel idea.

They are not just a winning team. They are a cheating winning team. They've not paid tax. At all. They just chose not to. SO THEY COULD WIN.

What a pile of utter horsesh!t you just wrote. Complete nonsense.

Usain Bolt is fast. He wins. If it should be shown that he was doping then should we let it slide because it would be petty and wrong to get in the way of his fantabulous winning? Gype.

Scottish football IS in the doldrums. Has been for donkeys.

Football. Is. A. Sport.

In sports cheats get punished.

Phuck me that post is just such a lot of utter crap.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

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Post #: 705
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 11:00:31 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54575
Joined: 1/10/2005
Pull it in a bit, that's just a bit over the top. And isn't that why teams get points deductions - for theoretical breach of trust in having excess funds available for purchases. Points deducted. If they move out of administration rather than into liquidation do they need to hang around while those so obviously biased against continue to have a go till they're satisfied?

It strikes me that some fans of other teams in Scotland are getting off on trying to get the boot in without fully taking on board the practical facts of the cutting off their nose to spite their face-ness of it. Which is a lovely theoretical ideal but seems to me to be wholly impractical. I'd have thought the common sense first step was to establish a base where the sport, in any form, could still go forward financially. Which is all I suggested - if it's true the OF aren't needed, why isn't someone making the simple financial case for it (as with the independence discussions you do tend to avoid the simple practical questions on money). But making that case pretty much undermines the standard argument about the financial support for football in Scotland and those who blindly hate one or more of the OF teams can pursue that and get their wish.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 706
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 5/5/2012 11:29:17 PM   
big dawg


Posts: 697
Joined: 29/4/2010
From: the house on the rock
quote:

ORIGINAL: London Calling

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.
"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.
"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits MAY outweigh that."


I'm going to atttempt to back him up a little,....he did say may. But I'm sure thats him just covering his arse so he can maintain plausible deniability. But it does look like thats the way he's going. Lets be honest with ourselves though, EVERY SPL chairman will be feeling the same way (maybe not Vlad but he's a law unto himself). I can see both sides of the coin, I'm not naive enough to think that Killie can do without the money, we're carrying £9mill of debt and one poor season and relegaton could finish us, so, as chairman of Killie, he has an obligation to keep our club alive but.....

They cheated, plain and simple. Not just a wee cheat either. A big fuck off cheat....many times for many years. In this case, sporting integrity HAS to come to the fore. If it doesnt then football in Scotland is a lost cause and if it hinges on TV deals and four OF games a season then the rest of us would be as well jacking it and leaving the two of them to it, playing an endless cycle of bigoted games against each other. Its over, simple as that. There's plenty of folk I know who arent renewing season tickets and I'm sure its the same all over, from St Johnstone to Inverness. The game is at such a low ebb just now that this could really be the final nail in the coffin. The only way that a "newco" Rangers be allowed into an SPL is if it brings about a change. League reconstruction, a change to voting rights, equal monetary distribution from TV deals and sanctions against them (which I'm not sure is possible now as the meetings deciding the sanctions have been rather conveniently postponed)...even at that it would still leave a sour taste. For me, the only answer is Division Three. It has to be.

I dont want to stop supporting Killie, and I wont, but Im not sure Id be willing to pay money to watch a league whch is so obviously set up to support only two teams while sticking two fingers up at the rest. Elab mate, you're talking like a journalist, not like a football fan. Boaby, Chief, Qwerty, Myself are talking like football fans. Sure, we hate the OF but this goes beyond that. The fact that its Rangers is beside the point, contrary to what Sally, Strachan, Traynor et al say. If it was Killie I'd accept it as our fate, just like any other fan of any other club would.

It does all hinge on them being liquidated though, which might still not happen

and another thing, Sally saying clubs would struggle without Rangers travelling support is nonsense. We've had one game at RP against them this year, where they barely filled the two stands we give them. Hardly the cash cow they're making out. The only real money they bring is from the TV deal.

< Message edited by big dawg -- 5/5/2012 11:35:48 PM >


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Post #: 707
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 6/5/2012 12:11:06 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Theoretical? Practical, real, extant, actual, effective, affective, sustained, prolonged, contrived, designed, knowing, organised, deliberately covert breaches of trust, the laws of the game, laws of the land, ethics... jesus.

Anyone following this case through media other than the ludicrous mainstream media - billionaire Craig Whyte, succulent lamb, etc, etc, etc - knows that exiting administration through a CVA is not going to happen. FFS The preferred bid is worthy of investigation by the fraud squad under asset stripping.

There will always be a Rangers, if not this Rangers, and Celtic. They will always exist in Scotland even if they did not play in a Scottish league. AS such Scottish football and society will never exist without feeling their influence, without being affected by them.

Rangers were docked 10 points for entering administration and have been punished further by a 12 month transfer embargo and fines for their wrongdoing in the past year. They have not been punished for EBTs. They have not yet been investigated by the authorities concerning dual contracts. There are no defined punishments in the SPL for liquidation - Gretna were kind enough to get relegated and so delay the SPL having to face up to such a situation.

If Rangers stay in the league what's to stop Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts going nuts. Spend, spend, spend run up Massive debts to facilitate winning then "incubate" their way out of it. Completely taking the p!ss out of the league and remaining in it. It doesn't matter which club it is. I'd want the punted. It happens to be Rangers.

Would we even still be discussing it if it was Caley or St Mirren? No. They'd be gone already.

Are we to say that Rangers are a special case? That they can do as they please and be accommodated no matter what? If so it's no longer a sporting competition.

How many fans do you reckon will turn up to see that? At most 7500-8000 Rangers fans visit Pittodrie every season. The recent SPL Survey suggested around 60% of Dons fans would stop going to SPL games should a newco be allowed into the SPL. that 7500-8000 is a drop in our particular ocean. Aberdeen's attendances are already falling our average will be ~10k. 10k x 19 + 0k = 190k. 5k x 19 + 8k = 93k. Say an average of £15 per head taking account of kids, OAPs, students, season tickets... that's a difference of ~£1.5m in gate receipts.

The TV deal could well be blown out of the water even if a newco were allowed in as it is contingent on 4 OF games a season. With a transfer embargo and the Player Union having said that players contracted to Rangers would not be obligated to join the newco then a bottom six finish for the newco is a real possibility, which would void the TV deal. So, unless they completely take the p!ss and make a newco finish no lower than 6th then any SPL club would be utterly stupid to budget for an income from the agreed SKY deal.

If anyone has read this far then it must be abundantly clear that this "league" is now closer the the WWE than a sporting competition.

What do FIFA and UEFA do? Rangers are already banned next season. UEFA requires 3 consecutive years of audited books before allowing entry into their competitions. Bill Miller's proposal Rangers Assets into newco then back into clean Rangers would mean no European football for at least 4 years for Rangers. Oh, incidently, Motherwell will lose out on roughly £2m in prize and TV money because the Rangers team featuring a top scorer they still owe money to Rapid Vienna for and a left back they still owe £800k to Hearts for finished above them. Back to the bodies... how do they react to multiple of their members being screwed by Rangers for millions of Euros and Rangers remaining in the top league in Scotland? The Swiss FA were on the verge of being expelled as punishment for the dodgy behaviour of one of their members this season. How do they react to the advice from member of Parliaments to the SFA and SPL to look after Rangers? Platini and Blatter are deadset against political interference in football.

Will the HMRC take lying down getting screwed? Or will they go after a newco playing out of Ibrox with Rangers in the name and claiming a 140-odd year history?

The OF should exist in Scottish football. Rangers should exist in Scottish football, if they survive in whatever form. BUT. The default position of Scottish football should not be subservience to the OF and it should not enable their domineering by treating them as special. They are not. They are football clubs.

If the top-flight in Scottish football sells its soul under the misapprehension that the majority of fans will watch an openly rigged league, that European and World football bodies will watch and do nothing, that HMRC will let the tax-payer get a public shafting in the current climate then they are all massively deluded.

If people really think sacrificing moral and sporting integrity will result in a better practical situation then they haven't thought it through.

That people are asked to think it through at all is bad enough.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 708
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 6/5/2012 11:45:04 AM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
The fact is, every single season one team gets relegated from the SPL.  They don't suddenly go bust without the revenue from Celtic and Rangers.

There should be no sanctions for a newco in the SPL, because there should be no newco in the SPL.  A brand new club/company should not be leapfrogging every other club in the SFL who slog it out without that magical SPL money every year.

Cheats should not prosper.

What I do dislike is the insistence on some supporters of other clubs making this an 'old firm' issue.  Celtic didn't cheat here,.  Celtic - like all the other clubs - have been cheated. 

It's fair to say my jaw hit the ground this morning on reading that Yorkston of Dunfermline is seemingly opposed.  I thought he was a racing certainty to be all for it despite Dunfermline's position.

(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 709
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 9:43:41 AM   
tommyjarvis


Posts: 6632
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Caught somewhere in time

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

It strikes me that some fans of other teams in Scotland are getting off on trying to get the boot in without fully taking on board the practical facts of the cutting off their nose to spite their face-ness of it. Which is a lovely theoretical ideal but seems to me to be wholly impractical. I'd have thought the common sense first step was to establish a base where the sport, in any form, could still go forward financially. Which is all I suggested - if it's true the OF aren't needed, why isn't someone making the simple financial case for it (as with the independence discussions you do tend to avoid the simple practical questions on money). But making that case pretty much undermines the standard argument about the financial support for football in Scotland and those who blindly hate one or more of the OF teams can pursue that and get their wish.



This is nonsense, I'm sorry. In a sporting context the first step has to be sporting integrity. And we don't have that if Rangers are allowed back in the SPL while if, say, Motherwell or St Johnstone went to the wall, they'd be kicked out in a heartbeat.

Also, no-one seems to have considered that it might benefit the whole of the SFL if Rangers were to go to Division 3. Think of all the tiny teams around the country who could hugely benefit from having a couple of visits from Rangers over the next couple of years.

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Post #: 710
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 12:50:26 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
The sports media in Scotland are in full swing today, absolutely nauseating.

Peddling the myth that 5 or 6 clubs will go to the wall,  future talent will be destroyed etc etc.

I'm half tempted to jack it in now before we even know the outcome - Rangers are clearly bigger than Scottish football and that ridiculous 'we are the people' attitude is prevailing.  Everything is stacked in their favour and the cheating is being studiously ignored.  I've not saw one journalist comment that the demise of Scottish football began with Murray and his millions, that it continued with their cheating in an unfair league where not everyone was abiding by the same rules, and it's going to end with people deserting the 'sport' in droves, at least short term. 

Oh, and we get to have the newco supporters shove it down our throats every week forever more that they can do what they like - and it'll be true.



On another note, well done to Adams for winning Manager of the Year - Ross County have a fantastic record this season and the award is well deserved.

(in reply to tommyjarvis)
Post #: 711
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 2:10:04 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54575
Joined: 1/10/2005
Sporting integrity? I applaud the hope, absolutely, but unless you want a well-loved pub league there has to be a practical side to it as well. I wish there wasn't - I wish money hadn't become so key to the game. But isn't it a little naive to suggest that it hasn't?

You see the one thing that confuses me is this - did Rangers and Celtic not win most everything most of the time before the influx of foreign stars and bank-busting wages? Or am I just imagining that? Because apart from one much talked about oddity in the mid-80s that came to nowt, I'm looking through the lists and, as an outsider, that's what I'm seeing. So, as an outsider, this still looks like a lot of opportunists acting on hate for the most part (one needs only look at Boaby's sig to see a blunt admission of that).

I have no issue with clubs who've gone into administration being punished because of the implicit suggestion they've 'over-used' funds to buoy up the club. What I'm trying to get my head around is this naked frenzy that seems to be demanding new punishments be added just because it's one of the OF. It'd be like if MU got into trouble and there is so much hate surrounding the club there'd be a lot of people trying hard to add on punishments after the fact just because it's MU but if it was a 'nicer' club there'd be a different and possibly more supportive atmosphere.

I'd emphasise here - I don't support any of these teams. I've just been bombarded by the stories and so many people who hate the OF are so getting off on this it's all pretty distasteful. And obviously the OF fans in those silly polls are probably as bad - one lot threatening to boycott one set of grounds and the other the remainder. Do they have any idea what they look like from the outside?


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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(in reply to London Calling)
Post #: 712
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 2:11:26 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54575
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: London Calling

The sports media in Scotland are in full swing today, absolutely nauseating.

Peddling the myth that 5 or 6 clubs will go to the wall,  future talent will be destroyed etc etc.


Have they tried to produce any credible financial background to the claims? I'd have thought it would be significantly bound up in the TV deals and anything to do with that would be guesswork at the moment? Or is my timing out on that?


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Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to London Calling)
Post #: 713
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 4:18:21 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
May 7, 2012 AFCRoss DST News,News

DST views with increasing concern the possibility that SPL clubs will vote to allow direct entry of a newco to the SPL with minimal penalties. The overwhelming opinion of supporters in Scotland is that a newco should enter senior football by applying for admission to the SFL 3rd division and working their way up again in a sustainable and honest way. Rangers like all other member clubs must be seen to comply with the rules and honour their debts, otherwise why should fans ever bother to turn up again, knowing for sure that the league is permanently rigged in their favour.

The mantra being repeated by most pundits and the officials of the SPL is that it is in the member clubs’ financial interest that a Rangers newco is immediately admitted to the SPL. The purported grounds are that Rangers along with Celtic bring about £700,000 a year to the other clubs by their fans attendance at matches and the TV deal. The message now being put about is that integrity and fair play is trumped by the financial imperative to survive since Scottish football will supposedly cease to be viable if Rangers are not in the top league. How can this stance be squared with Rangers and Celtic’s insistence in recent years that their departure to England/an Atlantic League would not be detrimental to Scottish football?

These assertions must be strongly challenged by the SPL club chairmen. Firstly, who are making the assertions? Many of the proponents of the “status quo” being essential have a vested interest. Media pundits and the press pack know that there will be far less appetite for their blanket coverage of the Old Firm if there is a transfer embargo and Rangers are facing East Stirlingingshire twice a season rather than Celtic. Their jobs hang in the balance. Clearly Rangers officials and supporters want their club at the top table winning trophies every season with guaranteed European football. They also have a vested interest for either financial or emotional reasons.

Now for the financial reality. In the case of our own club, in a season when AFC is in the top six, Rangers will normally add about 8000 over 2 games to the overall attendances for the season. Including programmes, food and other ancillary sales, the annual revenue is therefore about £200,000. Ranger’s fans represent about 4% of Aberdeen’s gate revenue in an average season, and if we have a good run in Europe, such as 4 seasons ago their effect is reduced to 2% of gate revenue.

Should Dundee (probably the best supported club in the SFL 1st division) be promoted into Rangers place, they have historically brought at least 2000 fans to Aberdeen matches, so the Rangers effect is reduced to £150000. If only 300 AFC fans fail to renew their season tickets and walk away from the club next season as a result of a misguided vote to allow a Rangers newco direct entry to the SPL, the effect of any Rangers support attending Pittodrie will be cancelled out. This is an entirely plausible scenario, which may well be repeated across all the SPL clubs given the strength of feeling being demonstrated across Scotland on this issue. SPL club chairmen will only finally count the cost of their decision when season ticket sales fail to materialise, by which time it will be too late to persuade the fans that the SPL is not permanently rigged in favour of the “too big to fail” clubs. The SPL chairmen should indeed “be careful what they wish for” if they vote for finance over integrity.

The TV deal melt-down scenario must also be challenged. If imaginative thought is applied, an alternative TV deal could be put together which would replace the current tired format. Rugby Super League in England has a £90m 5 year deal with Sky despite having lower attendances than the SPL. That is a better deal than the SPL had, so why can a minority sport with lower support do it and the SPL can’t? Probably because we are competing with the EPL and UEFA games, and therefore get less money and the lunch-time, Friday and Monday evening kick-offs to fill in the TV schedule gaps. If we go for summer football, we would be the only show in town for several weeks of the year and our product would be much more valuable. We could increase the league size as the customers want, have bigger play offs to keep the end of the season alive, and if OF games are actually essential to the deal, re-introduce the old League Cup qualifying groups at the start of the season with Rangers and Celtic in the same 4 team group to start the season with 2 OF games before the league starts. Overall, a revised programme for the season could easily generate the same cash as before from a TV deal, whether Rangers are in the SPL or not.

Finally let us address the potential absence of £500,000 a year income from TV. This could be replaced by increasing the average home gate by attracting only 1000 extra fans to every home game. The latent support for a successful Aberdeen FC is there to be had. 18,000 made the long trip to Glasgow for a 1215 kick-off only last month. If the AFC product on the pitch was more attractive and marketed as enthusiastically as a certain well known North-East house building company’s product, a target of 1000 extra season ticket fans to replace the TV income could easily be reached.

In summary, AFC like all the other SPL clubs does not need Rangers in the SPL to survive and thrive, and must vote for integrity in our national game.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 714
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 4:29:26 PM   
London Calling


Posts: 93
Joined: 19/5/2009
From: Glasgow
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Sporting integrity? I applaud the hope, absolutely, but unless you want a well-loved pub league there has to be a practical side to it as well. I wish there wasn't - I wish money hadn't become so key to the game. But isn't it a little naive to suggest that it hasn't?

You see the one thing that confuses me is this - did Rangers and Celtic not win most everything most of the time before the influx of foreign stars and bank-busting wages? Or am I just imagining that? Because apart from one much talked about oddity in the mid-80s that came to nowt, I'm looking through the lists and, as an outsider, that's what I'm seeing. So, as an outsider, this still looks like a lot of opportunists acting on hate for the most part (one needs only look at Boaby's sig to see a blunt admission of that).

I have no issue with clubs who've gone into administration being punished because of the implicit suggestion they've 'over-used' funds to buoy up the club. What I'm trying to get my head around is this naked frenzy that seems to be demanding new punishments be added just because it's one of the OF. It'd be like if MU got into trouble and there is so much hate surrounding the club there'd be a lot of people trying hard to add on punishments after the fact just because it's MU but if it was a 'nicer' club there'd be a different and possibly more supportive atmosphere.

I'd emphasise here - I don't support any of these teams. I've just been bombarded by the stories and so many people who hate the OF are so getting off on this it's all pretty distasteful. And obviously the OF fans in those silly polls are probably as bad - one lot threatening to boycott one set of grounds and the other the remainder. Do they have any idea what they look like from the outside?



I'm a Celtic supporter and yes, Celtic and Rangers did win a lot prior to David Murray taking Scottish football into financial meltdown.  I'm not sure what difference that makes - it was done honestly (as far as I know).  You can't punish a club for being a big and successful club.

At the point that Murray took over Rangers in the 80s, Rangers were a poor side.  Everyone was on the same financial footing more or less.  Rangers were rampant after that - and it turns out it's almost certain that this was achieved by cheating and financial doping.

I'm not personally looking for 'new' punishments.  I'm looking for integrity, fairness and justice.  If Rangers liquidate and form a newco, they should not be granted entry into the SPL straight off the bat.  They should have to apply to the 3rd Division, the same as any other new club.  If they don't liquidate, they stay in the SPL.  If they are found guilty of abusing EBTs and having dual contracts, they should be kicked out entirely for a period of time. 

It's not only 'OF' (hate the term) supporters who are threatening to boycott - Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans in particular have been very vocal about this as well.  Supporters of all clubs are sitting here seeing that Rangers have had an advantage by not living within their means.  To allow a newco into the SPL - they would be the only club to be debt free, having shafted their creditors, while everyone else continues to live within their means and manage as best they can.

We're not being narky for the hell of it.  The actions of that club have been and continue to be disgusting.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 715
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 5:02:09 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Early 70s Aberdeen finished runner up to Stein's Celtic.

Late 70s Aberdeen finished runner up to Celtic with McNeil as Manager, who was promptly poached by Celtic. Even Ally McLeod's Aberdeen - yes, Scotland poached him from us - humped Rangers 5-1 in a cup semi.

Ferguson had one mediocre year then won the league in 79-80. Pikeys win the league in 83 while AFC were busy conquering Europe. AFC win the league in 84, 85. Hearts bottle it on the final day in '86.

Enter Souness and massive money at Rangers. Rangers had in the '80s home crowds as low as 5000.

Aberdeen, despite losing Ferguson and most of "the team of the decade" manage stick around. And still challenge - while Celtic are raking around in the biscuit tin for small change. Cup double in 89-90.

Last real go at the league in '91. Alex eehhhhhhh Smiff bottled it. Changed in the game that shalt not be named from 4-3-3 which had seen us overhaul Walter Smith's mob to 4-42. Then the tax evasion starts, from what has gotten out so far.

Before AFC won the league in '80 the last non-OF team was Killie in '65. 15 years, 9 of which were Stein's Celtic in a run in which the closest to to them was, on occasion, Aberdeen.

It is now 27 years since anyone but the OF won the league. AFC in '85. Which includes the now asterixed Blue Cheek's 9 in a row during which the closest team to them on 3 or 4 occasions was AFC and once Motherwell. No-one can see a time that someone else will in the future. And yet the establishment and media clamour to retain as much of the status quo as possible.

The current period is the most uncompetitive period in Scottish football. By some margin.

Mistaking the recent duopoly as the natural order of things is the result of ignorance and indoctrination. Before the dodgy financially practices which further distorted the money Rangers had available to pay players - the period from around 87-91 Scottish football was still competitive. Remarkably, it remained so for a few years until '94 when Willie Miller - after 2 seasons finishing 2nd and one in which we were runner up in everything - phucked AFC right up by gutting a team and trying to rebuild too quickly while playing 3-5-phuckin-2.

Rangers financial doping for 20 years has so distorted the top division in football that it's barely a sport.

As Alex Thomson of C4 news wrote in a recent blog piece: "Sport celebrates competition – business seeks to eliminate it."

If business trumps what it is that makes sport interesting - honest competition - then it becomes self-defeating.

Scottish football is in the process of killing itself.

I don't blame the OF for being the OF or Rangers for being Rangers. They are what they are.

I blame the clubs an the SFA. The clubs mad ethe SPL the ludicrous sham it is and looks set to be. The SFA through studious non-interference failed to force the dishonest to be honest.

As for this pub-league drivel... 'kinell. Do people imagine fans support their club based on how much money they have to spend? Do people imagine fans would stop supporting their own team if Rangers weren't in the league? Do people imagine a fair league would be less interesting to fans than an unsustainably financially distorted accomodation? Do they imagine fans of the other teams will carry on going to games in a league that is openly corrupt?

Football is about participation. The only reason there is media interest is participation. If as surveys suggest over 50% of non-OF fans and around 35% of celtic fans stop participating who's watching? Will the media and sponsorship pots get bigger or smaller? Will club budgets get bigger or smaller? Will the game thrive or die?

People participate in football for emotional reasons. What is there to believe in if cheats prosper, if corruption wins, if you do always know how it's going to end?

Newco gets it and Scottish football dies.

_____________________________

"Aberdonians, and with some degree of purpose and right on their side, have absolute contempt for Glasgow. There is a side of Aberdonians who, let's be absolutely honest about this, feel so superior to Glasgow that you can measure it by the yard."

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 716
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 7/5/2012 5:48:28 PM   
big dawg


Posts: 697
Joined: 29/4/2010
From: the house on the rock

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Sporting integrity? I applaud the hope, absolutely, but unless you want a well-loved pub league there has to be a practical side to it as well. I wish there wasn't - I wish money hadn't become so key to the game. But isn't it a little naive to suggest that it hasn't?

You see the one thing that confuses me is this - did Rangers and Celtic not win most everything most of the time before the influx of foreign stars and bank-busting wages? Or am I just imagining that? Because apart from one much talked about oddity in the mid-80s that came to nowt, I'm looking through the lists and, as an outsider, that's what I'm seeing. So, as an outsider, this still looks like a lot of opportunists acting on hate for the most part (one needs only look at Boaby's sig to see a blunt admission of that).

I have no issue with clubs who've gone into administration being punished because of the implicit suggestion they've 'over-used' funds to buoy up the club. What I'm trying to get my head around is this naked frenzy that seems to be demanding new punishments be added just because it's one of the OF. It'd be like if MU got into trouble and there is so much hate surrounding the club there'd be a lot of people trying hard to add on punishments after the fact just because it's MU but if it was a 'nicer' club there'd be a different and possibly more supportive atmosphere.

I'd emphasise here - I don't support any of these teams. I've just been bombarded by the stories and so many people who hate the OF are so getting off on this it's all pretty distasteful. And obviously the OF fans in those silly polls are probably as bad - one lot threatening to boycott one set of grounds and the other the remainder. Do they have any idea what they look like from the outside?



What new punishments are we looking for? We're only looking for punishments that should have been in place in the first place. It just happens to be Rangers who are in the predicament. Do you honestly believe Rangers should be allowed straight back into the SPL?

_____________________________

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(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 717
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 8/5/2012 5:16:57 PM   
ChickMagnet

 

Posts: 1765
Joined: 19/5/2008
From: Salford
Just when you thought they'd got some good news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17996474

(in reply to big dawg)
Post #: 718
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 8/5/2012 5:50:51 PM   
Qwerty Norris


Posts: 3971
Joined: 26/10/2005
From: Edinburgh

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickMagnet

Just when you thought they'd got some good news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17996474


You would think though that would just clear the way for the Blue Knights to become the new preferred bidder?

Or closure?



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(in reply to ChickMagnet)
Post #: 719
RE: The Scottish Football Thread 2011/2012 - 10/5/2012 1:53:40 PM   
Chief


Posts: 7773
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Banshee

quote:

ORIGINAL: big dawg

I dont want to stop supporting Killie, and I wont, but Im not sure Id be willing to pay money to watch a league whch is so obviously set up to support only two teams while sticking two fingers up at the rest. Elab mate, you're talking like a journalist, not like a football fan. Boaby, Chief, Qwerty, Myself are talking like football fans. Sure, we hate the OF but this goes beyond that. The fact that its Rangers is beside the point, contrary to what Sally, Strachan, Traynor et al say. If it was Killie I'd accept it as our fate, just like any other fan of any other club would.



Ummm.....

(in reply to big dawg)
Post #: 720
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