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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 1/6/2010 1:24:08 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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By the way I have to admit I was wrong about Button - he's clearly a quality driver. As for Turkey it would have been a comfortable Red Bull 1-2 had it not been for that ridiculous bit of driving by Vettel. McClaren are up against it and need improvements to the car quick to really have a chance. 

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 1/6/2010 1:41:28 PM   
HIM


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I'd say the opposite, it's Red Bull who are now up against it and need to improve their car. All this season they've had a massive advantage - almost as much as Brawn's early season advantage last year - yet they've failed to capitalise on that advantage. One of their drivers is only 5 points clear in the driver's standings (with Vettel being down in 5th) and they're no longer leading the constructors championship. McLaren have come from a long way back this year and on Sunday they clearly had the fastest car - although as you say, Red Bull probably would have got a 1-2, were it not for Vettel's impetuousness. Last year Red Bull managed to peg back Brawn's early season success but by the end of the season the McLaren was the best car. If that happens again this year Red Bull may have blown it.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 1/6/2010 4:06:47 PM   
Your Funny Uncle


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I don't know how Red Bull can defend Vettel over Webber.....

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 1/6/2010 6:03:29 PM   
Captain Black


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Indeed - but regardless of whose fault it was, Horner's comments were completely self-defeating and will potentially only serve to divide the team. You just don't do that when you're responsible for the whole team; at the very least you sort it out behind closed doors.


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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 13/6/2010 6:41:36 PM   
BigBadWolf


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Fantastic result for Hamilton and Button, I was dubious about the strategy, but that worked out brillaintly.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 13/6/2010 6:50:53 PM   
HIM


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What a race! It flipped and flopped so many times and what's more, there wasn't a safety car in sight! Lewis proved once again what an unbelievably great driver he is.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 14/6/2010 12:44:30 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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Really great race, all the tyre changes and people not being sure if they're doing the right thing made it bloody exciting. I really like the track as well, overlooking the river and all the greenery made it easy on the eye and a cool place to race.

Hamilton is pure class - we all know he's fucking fast but he seems to be developing his skills in terms of looking after the tyres. You could see he was driving within himself and then when Button started catching him he turned up the pace again.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 14/6/2010 12:47:17 PM   
HIM


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Yeah I really thought we were in for another Turkey moment when Button started catching him. But then he just stepped on the gas and started to pull away by a second per lap. amazing stuff.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 14/6/2010 5:50:37 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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They were saying that the other teams are developing Red Bull's innovative exhaust to downforce set up. If McClaren can get this right they could pull away considering they already have superior straight line speed

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 16/6/2010 6:10:01 AM   
Your Funny Uncle


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After the first race and the new regs I feared this season would turn into some kind of procession but thankfully that isn't the case, it's been cracking again and what another fantastic and unpredictable race.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 2:08:20 PM   
DJ Satan


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Ferrari have a good weekend so they instantly start cheating again. Bleaurgh! 

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 5:47:45 PM   
KnightofZyryab


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How were they cheating ? It may have been rule flouting but that's different from outright cheating. As I see it, it was very unfair on Massa but pragmatically it made sense when Alonso was quicker than Massa and would have likely passed him anyway when Vettel started to close in towards the end and may possibly have taken the second spot from Ferrari. Plus, as with Webber and Vettel, the last thing you want is both guys taking each other out.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 6:22:13 PM   
DJ Satan


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Flouting rules is the very definition of cheating.

I'm with Eddie Jordan. They should be disqualified from this race and banned from the next.

Edit: I've just seen that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 but the result stands. That's just a mockery of fair racing.


< Message edited by DJ Satan -- 25/7/2010 6:24:48 PM >


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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 7:28:46 PM   
KnightofZyryab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Flouting rules is the very definition of cheating.

I'm with Eddie Jordan. They should be disqualified from this race and banned from the next.

Edit: I've just seen that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 but the result stands. That's just a mockery of fair racing.



Well you may have your anti-Ferrari sentiments but it was a pragmatic decision which made perfect sense. I'm not saying it's not reprehensible, but it's a logical aspect of the sport which has to be accepted. If one driver still has a shot at the championship, and the other clearly does not, it makes sense to allow the first driver through, albeit on unsavoury terms. Compare to the infamous Schumacher-Barrichello team order - the difference then being that Schumacher was in control of the championship and it was therefore unnecessary. These points today were vital for Alonso in keeping in touch with the other guys in the top 4 when he's started to pick up some pace. There were a number of other things going on the race as well - Massa started slowing Alonso down and Vettel was catching up, meaning he might well have caught up with and passed at least one of the Ferraris.

As I said, an unfair decision, but a logical one considering the circumstances, and whose to say that any of the other top teams wouldn't do it in a similar position ?

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 7:38:12 PM   
Harry Tuttle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofZyryab


quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Flouting rules is the very definition of cheating.

I'm with Eddie Jordan. They should be disqualified from this race and banned from the next.

Edit: I've just seen that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 but the result stands. That's just a mockery of fair racing.



Well you may have your anti-Ferrari sentiments but it was a pragmatic decision which made perfect sense. I'm not saying it's not reprehensible, but it's a logical aspect of the sport which has to be accepted. If one driver still has a shot at the championship, and the other clearly does not, it makes sense to allow the first driver through, albeit on unsavoury terms. Compare to the infamous Schumacher-Barrichello team order - the difference then being that Schumacher was in control of the championship and it was therefore unnecessary. These points today were vital for Alonso in keeping in touch with the other guys in the top 4 when he's started to pick up some pace. There were a number of other things going on the race as well - Massa started slowing Alonso down and Vettel was catching up, meaning he might well have caught up with and passed at least one of the Ferraris.


Why does the sentiment have to be anti Ferrari? Why can't it be anti cheating?


quote:

As I said, an unfair decision, but a logical one considering the circumstances, and whose to say that any of the other top teams wouldn't do it in a similar position ?


That makes no difference at all. Cheating is cheating regardless of whether anyone else would have cheated if they'd had the chance. Team orders make a mockery of the sport IMO.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 7:49:33 PM   
KnightofZyryab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

Why does the sentiment have to be anti Ferrari? Why can't it be anti cheating?


Well because some people have jumped on this precisely because it is Ferrari on the end of it. It's both anti-cheating and anti-Ferarri.

quote:

As I said, an unfair decision, but a logical one considering the circumstances, and whose to say that any of the other top teams wouldn't do it in a similar position ?


quote:

That makes no difference at all. Cheating is cheating regardless of whether anyone else would have cheated if they'd had the chance. Team orders make a mockery of the sport IMO.


That's not really what I'm saying, I was definitely not condoning cheating in this form. What I would say is that the rule is not watertight and there will be occasions where teams have to contravene it, which is what happened today. Just for the record, I don't support Ferrari or any of the other teams, but if you envisage a situation where a team order - explicit or coded - might result in one of their drivers winning a championship in the final race, I doubt the rule would be adhered to.

< Message edited by KnightofZyryab -- 25/7/2010 7:50:46 PM >


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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 7:55:15 PM   
DJ Satan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofZyryab


quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

Flouting rules is the very definition of cheating.

I'm with Eddie Jordan. They should be disqualified from this race and banned from the next.

Edit: I've just seen that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 but the result stands. That's just a mockery of fair racing.



Well you may have your anti-Ferrari sentiments but it was a pragmatic decision which made perfect sense. I'm not saying it's not reprehensible, but it's a logical aspect of the sport which has to be accepted. If one driver still has a shot at the championship, and the other clearly does not, it makes sense to allow the first driver through, albeit on unsavoury terms. Compare to the infamous Schumacher-Barrichello team order - the difference then being that Schumacher was in control of the championship and it was therefore unnecessary. These points today were vital for Alonso in keeping in touch with the other guys in the top 4 when he's started to pick up some pace. There were a number of other things going on the race as well - Massa started slowing Alonso down and Vettel was catching up, meaning he might well have caught up with and passed at least one of the Ferraris.

As I said, an unfair decision, but a logical one considering the circumstances, and whose to say that any of the other top teams wouldn't do it in a similar position ?

If Massa had won, or even Alonso passing fairly, I would have been quite happy with the result.

Well we've already seen Vettle and Webber racing for position, and Hamilton and Button racing for the lead in the same race. So I don't think other teams would do it.

Having a drivers and constructors championship causes a conflict of intrest. They should just scrap the drivers championship if they want to allow team orders. Ferrari still would have gotten full points But now Alonso has 7 points more than he should have and Massa is down 7.

Ironically if Ferrari were stripped off the placings it would benefit Red Bull more than McClaren.


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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 8:07:42 PM   
The Lensman


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Cheating or Gamesmanship?

Technically no one in Ferrari has done anything done.

"Alonso is faster than you. Please aknowledge that you understand" or something like that.

You might infer something - But for its literal meaning, all that was said was that Fernando Alonso was faster than Felipe Massa. Which was a fact all weekend. What happened after that was as described by Massa as being his own choice.

OK. its all tosh. Ferrari knew exactly what they did - but what crime is suffient when such crimes are committed more occassionally than seen by us mere tv watchers. It happens all the time. So should all the teams be banned? Makes for a very BORING sport.

Grand Prix racing is about its Politics, especially this season. So why are people surprised to see these things happen? In some way, Ferrari WERE ALWAYS going to find a way to get Fernando ahead. ALWAYS, I'd put my mortgage on it. So is it Cheating or Gamesmanship? I think more Gamesmanship for me.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 8:15:41 PM   
DJ Satan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Lensman

Cheating or Gamesmanship?

Technically no one in Ferrari has done anything done.

"Alonso is faster than you. Please aknowledge that you understand" or something like that.

You might infer something - But for its literal meaning, all that was said was that Fernando Alonso was faster than Felipe Massa. Which was a fact all weekend. What happened after that was as described by Massa as being his own choice.

OK. its all tosh. Ferrari knew exactly what they did - but what crime is suffient when such crimes are committed more occassionally than seen by us mere tv watchers. It happens all the time. So should all the teams be banned? Makes for a very BORING sport.

Grand Prix racing is about its Politics, especially this season. So why are people surprised to see these things happen? In some way, Ferrari WERE ALWAYS going to find a way to get Fernando ahead. ALWAYS, I'd put my mortgage on it. So is it Cheating or Gamesmanship? I think more Gamesmanship for me.
It was a boring race, because instead of seeing two drivers race we saw a procession.

Everyone said Alonso was faster than Massa throughout the race. But if that was really true then wouldn't Alonso had already been in the lead? Massa had covered a further distance than Alonso at that point he got the message so was therefore faster.


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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 25/7/2010 10:36:08 PM   
The Lensman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DJ Satan

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Lensman

Cheating or Gamesmanship?

Technically no one in Ferrari has done anything done.

"Alonso is faster than you. Please aknowledge that you understand" or something like that.

You might infer something - But for its literal meaning, all that was said was that Fernando Alonso was faster than Felipe Massa. Which was a fact all weekend. What happened after that was as described by Massa as being his own choice.

OK. its all tosh. Ferrari knew exactly what they did - but what crime is suffient when such crimes are committed more occassionally than seen by us mere tv watchers. It happens all the time. So should all the teams be banned? Makes for a very BORING sport.

Grand Prix racing is about its Politics, especially this season. So why are people surprised to see these things happen? In some way, Ferrari WERE ALWAYS going to find a way to get Fernando ahead. ALWAYS, I'd put my mortgage on it. So is it Cheating or Gamesmanship? I think more Gamesmanship for me.
It was a boring race, because instead of seeing two drivers race we saw a procession.

Everyone said Alonso was faster than Massa throughout the race. But if that was really true then wouldn't Alonso had already been in the lead? Massa had covered a further distance than Alonso at that point he got the message so was therefore faster.



I'm not sure, as we've seen through a number of occasions this season, Alonso has been held up by Massa unable to get past him due to a number of factors.

The problem with Formula one at this point in time, is over taking, its been the sticking point for a number of years.

Overtaking is near enough impossible in a conservative sense, depending of random variances would it be able to pass a car that isnt a back runner, but has a bit of pedigree itself. The sport is so quick that you have to rely on your opponent making a mistake in order to gain an advantage.

Once Alonso had passed him, didnt he open up a lead. (not a question)

But we're going off track.

Ferrari were naughty

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 9:58:32 AM   
CORLEONE

 

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I'm not the biggest fan of F1 but I do watch most of the Grand Prix. It's stuff like that yesterday which makes me wonder why I even bother.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 12:09:20 PM   
Rob


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I'm not a Ferrari fan and certainly not an Alonso fan but unless the rules are tightened then things like this will always happen. No team orders were actually given and whilst everybody knows what the message meant have they actually broken the rules? Someone with a better understanding of the regulations than me might be able to say so definitively but I'm not so sure.

Don't get me wrong I don't think it should go on but I teams will always push to get away with things like this. On a more positive note I thought Smedley and Massa both handled themselves brilliantly and I really liked Jenson's comments in the interview afterwards.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 1:59:37 PM   
Rhubarb


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I feel massively sorry for Felipe, he was only really slower because of traffic, if he was significantly slower at all. A year after his accident, what a confidence boost it would have been to win the race - he clearly didn't want to give up the place and was having a bit of sulk after, its crazy he's gone from one hairpin of the world title to Second Driver at Ferrari. I also feel for Rob Smedley, who blatently didn't want to give that message, and really gave the game away, but he was clearly pretty upset about it.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 5:58:41 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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It's really sad for Massa, a year after fracturing his skull in a freak accident he's leading a Grand Prix again and he's told to lose it. It's an all round disgrace and makes a mockery of the word 'race'

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 7:45:56 PM   
Your Funny Uncle


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After watching last nights episode of Top Gear it has reminded my how far F1 has come from the late 80's/early 90's, and it's gone in a worse direction. The races of yesteryear were fantastic races with fantastic, competitive drivers and teams' judgement not clouded by money and team politics. Days like yesterday make me ashamed to love F1 so much.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 8:15:05 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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Every so often I think I should give watching F1 a go again. Every so often I'm reminded why I don't.

To echo the above, Top Gear shows how far the cars have progressed from a safety point of view. But talking about Prost, Piquet, Mansell and Senna makes me think how far backwards exciting racing has gone.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 26/7/2010 8:34:26 PM   
The Lensman


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I really dont see the massive furore behind yesterdays race. Its brilliant politics.

If Ferrari were to get banned, or something like thats - thats the biggest joke of it all.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 27/7/2010 5:57:06 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


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Why is it 'brilliant politics'? - isn't this suppose to be F1 where engineering and skill are it's peak?  I wouldn't ban them I'd just knock off the points. No one would do it again if they knew it would mean wins/ race positions scrubbed.

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RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 27/7/2010 8:45:52 PM   
The Lensman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

Why is it 'brilliant politics'? - isn't this suppose to be F1 where engineering and skill are it's peak?  I wouldn't ban them I'd just knock off the points. No one would do it again if they knew it would mean wins/ race positions scrubbed.


Because it creates this exact conversation, if the sport didnt have the characters, the lifestyle, flamboyance and politics we'd might as well be watching some motor racing you find on Eurosport 2! Things that happen OFF of the track is just as entertaining on it for me.

Every fan needs a hero, needs a villian, you need someone to cheer and someone to despise. Everyone needs the brilliance and the damn right outrageousness to talk about. You need it. I need it. And without it, you wouldnt want to watch it at all.

That to me makes it thoroughly brilliant.

If it was just a boring 3 day event where everyone is chummy, where no one breaks the rules, where you have a gracious winner and an even more gracious loser - are you telling me, you'd watch this???

Points wont get knocked off as they will soon abolish the rule, and that ends this debate.

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Post #: 1019
RE: The Formula One 2010 Thread - 27/7/2010 8:48:10 PM   
Harry Tuttle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Lensman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

Why is it 'brilliant politics'? - isn't this suppose to be F1 where engineering and skill are it's peak?  I wouldn't ban them I'd just knock off the points. No one would do it again if they knew it would mean wins/ race positions scrubbed.


Because it creates this exact conversation, if the sport didnt have the characters, the lifestyle, flamboyance and politics we'd might as well be watching some motor racing you find on Eurosport 2! Things that happen OFF of the track is just as entertaining on it for me.

Every fan needs a hero, needs a villian, you need someone to cheer and someone to despise. Everyone needs the brilliance and the damn right outrageousness to talk about. You need it. I need it. And without it, you wouldnt want to watch it at all.

That to me makes it thoroughly brilliant.

If it was just a boring 3 day event where everyone is chummy, where no one breaks the rules, where you have a gracious winner and an even more gracious loser - are you telling me, you'd watch this???

Points wont get knocked off as they will soon abolish the rule, and that ends this debate.


You're confusing exciting rivalries with cheating here.

And yes I would watch it, not everybody has such low expectations of sportsmanship as you seem to.

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