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RE: Sherlock - 18/1/2012 7:35:33 PM   
Stillwater


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Private Hudson


Perhaps, but Moriarty is not any old character. He is an exceptional mind, the equal or superior (at least in his mind) to Sherlock (though we all know Mycroft is actually more intelligent than either but is not as driven... I would like to see a bit more of Mycroft being smarter than Sherlock) which again brings me to the point about how can anyone enjoy a victory over someone that results in your own death?




That's based on the assumption that the most important thing to a person is their own life. It's perfectly acceptable an idea that Moriarty viewed defeating Sherlock as more important. Remember he's also a bit mentally unhinged.

I just don't think we had got to the point where Moriarty would be so desperate to beat Sherlock that he would see his death as the only solution.

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Post #: 511
RE: Sherlock - 18/1/2012 8:19:12 PM   
Ref


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Slightly , but what are everyone's thoughts on this:~

CBS - Contemporary Sherlock in New York City

I'm none too sure, seems like they're just jumping on the success of the BBC.

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Post #: 512
RE: Sherlock - 18/1/2012 11:10:48 PM   
Private Hudson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ref

Slightly , but what are everyone's thoughts on this:~

CBS - Contemporary Sherlock in New York City

I'm none too sure, seems like they're just jumping on the success of the BBC.


Yeah heard that, sounds like a piss poor idea.

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Post #: 513
RE: Sherlock - 18/1/2012 11:11:14 PM   
Private Hudson


Posts: 1836
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ref

Slightly , but what are everyone's thoughts on this:~

CBS - Contemporary Sherlock in New York City

I'm none too sure, seems like they're just jumping on the success of the BBC.


Actually reminds me of Steve Coogan in Cruise of the Gods... "Sherlock Holmes in Miami"

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Post #: 514
RE: Sherlock - 18/1/2012 11:17:53 PM   
Private Hudson


Posts: 1836
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stillwater


quote:

ORIGINAL: Private Hudson


Perhaps, but Moriarty is not any old character. He is an exceptional mind, the equal or superior (at least in his mind) to Sherlock (though we all know Mycroft is actually more intelligent than either but is not as driven... I would like to see a bit more of Mycroft being smarter than Sherlock) which again brings me to the point about how can anyone enjoy a victory over someone that results in your own death?




That's based on the assumption that the most important thing to a person is their own life. It's perfectly acceptable an idea that Moriarty viewed defeating Sherlock as more important. Remember he's also a bit mentally unhinged.

I just don't think we had got to the point where Moriarty would be so desperate to beat Sherlock that he would see his death as the only solution.


Agreed 100%.

I don't agree that is acceptable that Moriarty would view his own death as less important than defeating Sherlock because he is an egotist and there was no guarantee his death would defeat Sherlock. The only way would be to see Sherlock either kill himself, or kill Sherlock, or have him humiliated. All three would see Moriarty alive.

I don't want to keep going on about it as some people agree, others don't. It probably won't change anyone's mind, but for me that was THE major flaw of the series so far.

It was uncharacteristic, in my opinion, and in a way a predictable way to try to show Moriarty was a nutter, which I believe is wrong as he is a genius. He is not mad, simply evil. There is a difference. Someone insane by very definition would not be a genius and not capable of the rational thought and logic to put all his dastardly plans into place.

But I do like the idea that perhaps the real Moriarty still lies in wait for Sherlock. Now there is a story arc worth waiting for. Perhaps Andrew Scott turns out to be Sebastian Moran?

I want Moriarty to really, REALLY test Sherlock and have them put on a proper battle of wills which then fails and they resort to kicking the sh!t out of each other!


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Post #: 515
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 1:15:59 AM   
elab49


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I don't think you are agreeing with Stillwater tbh. Stillwater accepts the idea that he'd kill himself to beat Sherlock but just doesn't agree that it was sufficiently sold.

I think, Private, your posts suggest you don't think the first part is feasible at all, without even getting to whether it was sold or not.

Another point to add to the death side though - given they already referenced the first episode with the taxi trick, it reminds me again of what that character was doing, how he explained it and how he viewed death and the offers he made to others. It's all, IMO, part of the same discussion.


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Post #: 516
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 2:47:17 AM   
Saltire


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Been avoiding this thread for days as I wasn't wanting any spoilers, but it was a gripping if a bit ott final episode of the series. I still don't like the way they've portrayed Moriarty and don't expect him to be dead either which leaves the ending a bit needless. The ending was nevertheless moving even though I knew Sherlock was alive and Freeman was excellent in it. However full plaudits go to the brilliant Cumberpatch - what an actor this lad is becoming; I've been following his career for a long time and he is probably gonna be one of our top actors in the world over the coming years - the way his face transforms with the thoughts and realisations when he was on that roof was astounding - utterly superb...

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Post #: 517
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 6:58:23 AM   
Hobbitonlass

 

Posts: 11919
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From: Westeros
From the RadioTimes yesterday (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-01-18/steven-moffat-nobodys-spotted-crucial-sherlock-clue)

quote:

We’ve all worked out exactly how Sherlock Holmes survived at the end of the series finale, right? WRONG.

At our exclusive Radio Times covers party last night, co-creator Steven Moffat said there’s something in Sunday night’s episode, The Reichenbach Fall, which everyone has overlooked.

Moffat admitted he had been following the fevered speculation about how Sherlock, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, could appear alive and well in the last scene of the episode, despite having apparently fallen to his death and, indeed, been buried. But according to Moffat, all the fans’ talk of switched corpses and mystery cyclists has been lacking a crucial detail.

"I’ve been online and looked at all the theories," Moffat told us, "and there’s one clue that everyone’s missed. It’s something that Sherlock did that was very out of character, but which nobody has picked up on."

What does he mean? Of course we tried to convince him - and fellow Sherlock creator Mark Gatiss, who also attended the party - to elaborate, but Moffat merely smiled and said that was all we were getting!

Over to you…




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Post #: 518
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 9:32:08 AM   
LEEJGM


Posts: 1041
Joined: 21/12/2005
The one thing I noticed that was out of character was that he cried when on the phone to John. You actually hear a tear drop fall on his scalf. Can't see how that would be relevent though.

These 6 episodes of Sherlock have been the best TV I've seen for years. It's been brilliant and I'm just gutted we have have to wait so long again for the next series.

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Post #: 519
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 9:33:58 AM   
Stillwater


Posts: 1652
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hobbitonlass

From the RadioTimes yesterday (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-01-18/steven-moffat-nobodys-spotted-crucial-sherlock-clue)

quote:

We’ve all worked out exactly how Sherlock Holmes survived at the end of the series finale, right? WRONG.

At our exclusive Radio Times covers party last night, co-creator Steven Moffat said there’s something in Sunday night’s episode, The Reichenbach Fall, which everyone has overlooked.

Moffat admitted he had been following the fevered speculation about how Sherlock, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, could appear alive and well in the last scene of the episode, despite having apparently fallen to his death and, indeed, been buried. But according to Moffat, all the fans’ talk of switched corpses and mystery cyclists has been lacking a crucial detail.

"I’ve been online and looked at all the theories," Moffat told us, "and there’s one clue that everyone’s missed. It’s something that Sherlock did that was very out of character, but which nobody has picked up on."

What does he mean? Of course we tried to convince him - and fellow Sherlock creator Mark Gatiss, who also attended the party - to elaborate, but Moffat merely smiled and said that was all we were getting!

Over to you…





I was just coming to post about this

Cue an intense re-watch of the episode now.


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Post #: 520
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 1:16:43 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5999
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The one thing I thought was odd is that he actually rang Watson as opopsed to texting him. He made sure he stood in exactly one sport and would have needed to call him to ensure it was done.

Still have no clue though !


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Post #: 521
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 2:25:50 PM   
Drone


Posts: 966
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The out of character thing, I imagine, is the fact Sherlock supposedly didn't recognise the code was a rythm, Bach according to Moriarity, which is what Sherlock was playing on the violin when Moriarty was coming up the stairs earlier in the episode. 

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Post #: 522
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 4:05:40 PM   
Musefan

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 21/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stillwater




That's based on the assumption that the most important thing to a person is their own life. It's perfectly acceptable an idea that Moriarty viewed defeating Sherlock as more important. Remember he's also a bit mentally unhinged.

I just don't think we had got to the point where Moriarty would be so desperate to beat Sherlock that he would see his death as the only solution.


Yes, i agree with this. I actually think the idea of Moriarty killing himself to BEAT Sherlock is a great one. I just didn't think that scene quite pitched it right. It didn't quite explain, for me, why Moriarty needed to do that then. There seemed to be quite a few other options on the table (such as simply saying; 'you have 30 seconds to jump or they die')

quote:


ORIGINAL: Drone

The out of character thing, I imagine, is the fact Sherlock supposedly didn't recognise the code was a rythm, Bach according to Moriarity, which is what Sherlock was playing on the violin when Moriarty was coming up the stairs earlier in the episode.


But they did sort of explain that by saying that Sherlock likes things to be over-complicated.

To me, leaving aside the possibility that Moffat is just playing with us, there seems to be quite a few possibilities on the table of out-of-character Sherlock moments. Him not caring about Mrs. Hudson being shot? Him pulling the gun on the police earlier? Other things people have mentioned? It seems likely to be that Molly is related

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Post #: 523
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 8:36:09 PM   
Barefoot Doctor


Posts: 1535
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musefan

To me, leaving aside the possibility that Moffat is just playing with us, there seems to be quite a few possibilities on the table of out-of-character Sherlock moments. Him not caring about Mrs. Hudson being shot? Him pulling the gun on the police earlier? Other things people have mentioned? It seems likely to be that Molly is related



Sherlock was aware that Mrs Hudson being shot was just a ruse to lure Watson away from the showdown between him and Moriarty. Think in the books Moriarty is the one to lure Watson away, but it may be that Sherlock is the one who did it here.

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Post #: 524
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 8:45:55 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54583
Joined: 1/10/2005
And I'm assuming it's not something he did apparently out of character setting up the fall either - because that isn't really out of character, just part of a ruse. 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 525
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 9:53:12 PM   
demoncleaner


Posts: 2388
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Belfast
Another out of character thing was when Molly asked if he wanted anything brought back and she said "of course you don't" but he was asking her for something.  A packet of crisps?  A mattress perhaps?

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Post #: 526
RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 9:57:52 PM   
Rebenectomy


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Did he cry? Would that be considered out of character?

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RE: Sherlock - 19/1/2012 10:46:56 PM   
Jonty

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 7/10/2005
I don't know if I'm imagining it, or the fact I was feeding a baby at the time and not concentrating, but just before Moriarty blows the back of his head off he and Sherlock shake hands and I swear there's something that gets changed hands.
Or it could just be the lighting or something.....

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RE: Sherlock - 20/1/2012 12:03:41 PM   
spark1

 

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moff/gattis at the RT covers party-

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Post #: 529
RE: Sherlock - 20/1/2012 10:34:50 PM   
Saltire


Posts: 1974
Joined: 5/7/2011
From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner

Another out of character thing was when Molly asked if he wanted anything brought back and she said "of course you don't" but he was asking her for something.  A packet of crisps?  A mattress perhaps?


Poor Molly, you just want to hug her! :D

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Post #: 530
RE: Sherlock - 20/1/2012 10:55:02 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54583
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: demoncleaner

Another out of character thing was when Molly asked if he wanted anything brought back and she said "of course you don't" but he was asking her for something.  A packet of crisps?  A mattress perhaps?


I didn't take that as out of character so much as setting up the set up for which he would need a body.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 531
RE: Sherlock - 21/1/2012 12:56:20 PM   
spark1

 

Posts: 6971
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more moff on that ep-


http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2012/jan/20/steven-moffat-sherlock-doctor-who


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Post #: 532
RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 8:07:09 AM   
IamMax


Posts: 66
Joined: 1/6/2011

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stillwater


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hobbitonlass

From the RadioTimes yesterday (http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-01-18/steven-moffat-nobodys-spotted-crucial-sherlock-clue)

quote:

We’ve all worked out exactly how Sherlock Holmes survived at the end of the series finale, right? WRONG.

At our exclusive Radio Times covers party last night, co-creator Steven Moffat said there’s something in Sunday night’s episode, The Reichenbach Fall, which everyone has overlooked.

Moffat admitted he had been following the fevered speculation about how Sherlock, played by Benedict Cumberbatch, could appear alive and well in the last scene of the episode, despite having apparently fallen to his death and, indeed, been buried. But according to Moffat, all the fans’ talk of switched corpses and mystery cyclists has been lacking a crucial detail.

"I’ve been online and looked at all the theories," Moffat told us, "and there’s one clue that everyone’s missed. It’s something that Sherlock did that was very out of character, but which nobody has picked up on."

What does he mean? Of course we tried to convince him - and fellow Sherlock creator Mark Gatiss, who also attended the party - to elaborate, but Moffat merely smiled and said that was all we were getting!

Over to you…





I was just coming to post about this

Cue an intense re-watch of the episode now.



Watched it again last night - sorry if this has been addressed, don't think ithas been - but when Holmes texts Moriarty 'Come and play...' he adds 'Have something of yours you might want back' or something like that. What's is it?

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Post #: 533
RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 9:28:21 AM   
jobloffski

 

Posts: 1894
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: elsewhere
Is the out of character thing the amount of emotion he shows up on the roof?

And is it because that, for any/all the preparations for keeping John back, making sure a pulse cant be detected, getting a corpse to bury, going underground, etc...

He's being totally honest with Moriarty, he is willing to burn (reputation wise/dying) to put and end to Moriarty's scheming, he is willing (apparently, as Watson is led to believe in the original story, to take them both over the edge to end things). He is really going to jump, he is going to use all he knows about how to fall and cause the least damage, muscle relaxants to minimise damage, or whatever and he has to do it because it's the only plausible way to make any plan to get away work. He just doesn't know if he will actually survive the fall. Either way, the plan will work, because his death, real or faked will have the same result, only if he does die he wont be able to clear his name.

So, is the emotion, and the crying, the Sherlock mask (emotion gets in the way of deduction) coming off, a slippage of character into more human, because he has his plan, he has worked out how everybody will react, and what to do next if he survives, there is no deducing left to do at that point, and he is just a normal man in that moment, who may be about to die, and actually does care enough about the people in his life to to be willing to die for them and be disgraced forever, to save them, if that is what transpires and the preps aren't good enough?

Cuts down on the need for Sherlock masks and dummy or alternative body droppage and needing to land in a refuse lorry, I suppose. And also makes the resolution hinge on the depth of Sherlock's character, rather than superhero level trickery, and makes for all the more amusing bemusement from Watson, knowing Sherlock IS the greatest man he has ever known, for doing this, but when safe, back on goes the Sherlock mask of not feeling like other people feel...

Plans for how to minimise damage, and what to do afterwards, all meticulously worked out but he does really jump, and really does hit the pavement, and he cries, for the people he will hurt, for the people he cares about, and because if it doesn't work, he really will die?

< Message edited by jobloffski -- 22/1/2012 9:56:26 AM >


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Post #: 534
RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 9:38:23 AM   
Base


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IamMax
Watched it again last night - sorry if this has been addressed, don't think ithas been - but when Holmes texts Moriarty 'Come and play...' he adds 'Have something of yours you might want back' or something like that. What's is it?


He thinks that he has the code to unlock all doors at that point.

Although, it is quite out of character that he'd believe a tiny little code could do that much, so maybe that is just how he is tipped off to Moriarty's plan.

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RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 10:05:03 AM   
IamMax


Posts: 66
Joined: 1/6/2011
quote:

ORIGINAL: Base


quote:

ORIGINAL: IamMax
Watched it again last night - sorry if this has been addressed, don't think ithas been - but when Holmes texts Moriarty 'Come and play...' he adds 'Have something of yours you might want back' or something like that. What's is it?


He thinks that he has the code to unlock all doors at that point.

Although, it is quite out of character that he'd believe a tiny little code could do that much, so maybe that is just how he is tipped off to Moriarty's plan.


Ah, I thought that, then that it might be a red herring, then that I might have missed something. Moriarty shouting 'What did I miss!?' as a clue? Now Moffat's comment - something that Holmes did out of character...? Cry, when he was on the ledge? 'Phone instead of text? So many possibles, just have to wait I guess...
Edit: Actually, the phoning thing might be the clue. Or we're thinking about it too much, like Moriarty says...

< Message edited by IamMax -- 22/1/2012 10:25:35 AM >

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Post #: 536
RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 10:32:11 AM   
HIM


Posts: 9734
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From: Star Trekkin', across the universe
quote:

ORIGINAL: IamMax

Watched it again last night - sorry if this has been addressed, don't think ithas been - but when Holmes texts Moriarty 'Come and play...' he adds 'Have something of yours you might want back' or something like that. What's is it?


I thought he was just referring to the code.

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RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 10:42:26 AM   
HIM


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There's no way he simply jumped off and hoped/planned to live. There was a lot of blood coming from the head wound and when he appeared at the end there wasn't a scratch on him. Plus if he was actually planning on hitting the pavement for realsies, he wouldn't have needed to Watson to stay in that exact spot where he couldn't see the pavement. I hope it isn't a Mission: Impossible style mask either. The rubbish lorry definitely has something to do with it. As does Molly.

I only got round to watching it last night and I thought it was a brilliant episode and my heart was pounding throughout the rooftop scene. I know the story of Reichenbach and I'd saw the headlines saying that it would be back for a third series but I was still genuinely shocked when he jumped and appeared to hit the pavement. It was actually quite a harrowing scene and my girlfriend was in tears. Fantastic work from Moffet. I really enjoyed Game of Shadows but I didn't really feel any sense of dread or fear that Holmes wouldn't survive the fall. In Sherlock however I wasn't. Can't wait 'til next year now for season 3!

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Post #: 538
RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 6:36:54 PM   
jobloffski

 

Posts: 1894
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He could have applied the blood before the jump or been wearing something that would cause a blood splatter (maybe even some of his own could have been taken for the purpose) upon the impact on the ground. If more of his own blood added to it because he didn't survive, no issue arises, and the preparations for his retrieval would have accounted for the need to remove any theatrical devices from his person.

John would still be required to stand where he was told to stand, partly so he would not be witness to any shenanigans, but more humanly, so that he would not see his best friend hit the kerb, if the plan didn't work.

Only putting the idea out there as something that would root the drama more in well, drama than just trickery, because it makes Sherlock a more rounded character if he is genuinely willing to die for Watson and the others if comes to that than it's just Sherlock pulling off another master scam. It also gives greater weight to Watson's assertion that Holmes is the best man he has ever known.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (from The Bible (John 15:13)). It would be rather touching if Sherlock was in some doubt whether he would survive or not, more touching than ;he never had any doubt whatsoever of his scam succeeding, anyway. And more dramatic possibilities in John being outraged at the trick, giving vent to how much Sherlock had hurt people, and then asking how Sherlock was so sure he'd survive, only to be told 'I didn't know'. So we have the you bastard stuff, and a far deeper 'bromance' if Watson deduces (for once being the one to fully deduce osmething) Sherlock was prepared to die for him after all, for real, his grief wasn't misplaced, and this contrary, maddening bastard in front of him is the man he thought he was, and worthy of the view of him he held onto after the world had seen him as a fraud, then forgotten him).

I've yabbered on, but it is a simpler idea than the other more shenanigan based potential solutions, and once you have eliminated the impossible (etc)...

I guess we'll find out next year some time.



< Message edited by jobloffski -- 22/1/2012 6:50:59 PM >


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RE: Sherlock - 22/1/2012 7:31:52 PM   
HIM


Posts: 9734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe
I admire your convictions but there is no way that Holmes just jumped and hoped to survive. He's too clever for that, too cunning.

(in reply to jobloffski)
Post #: 540
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