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The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 7:55:33 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

Continuation of http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=96558&mpage=4&key=

I refuse to believe that there is not a thread on this somewhere but obviously it has succumbed to the page lists of Empire so I thought I'd start one that will probably appeal a bit more to the newer viewer of The Sopranos, a show that seems to be in my life regularly argued as one, if not, of the greatest television shows of all time.

I had tried to watch it a year or so ago but couldn't get into it but my mate leant me season one again about 6 months ago and after sticking with it I quickly fell in love and am now close to wrapping up season 6 (so no spoilers please!

).

I don't know what's got me hooked at the second time of asking. I find the show has so many different angles on the way it asks questions about morales, family ambition, responsibility, business, love, romance and ultimately, one of the show's most major issues, death. The characters and colourful and loveable, well most of them, especially the males as although their way of earning money is obviously criminal and degrading they seem most at ease to accept that essentially they are "bad creatures" but don't hide behind veils of a Catholic front unlike the women in the show who are self-indulgent, selfish and hide behind false fronts. As Tony tells Carmela during their divorce proceedings in season 5 - "You know how I make a living and you walk around like butter wouldn't melt. You don't want it to get ugly? Too late." I think that line best sums up the big line between the two sexes and the way the show revolves around them. Look at any episode bar the surreal dream sequences or flashback episodes and you will see the storylines revolving around Tony's syndicate of crime or Carmela's syndicate of bitching and hypocrism.

My favourite character is Christopher Moltisanti. He's slightly cliched but he always livens up the scene and he's a character you feel sorry for, always seeming under-appreciated and a hard and true (obviously technically not!

) man trying to aspire. Meadow gets on my nerves frankly, especially in season 5, her young lady act is bulshy, annoying and extremely hypocritical.

It's certainly a fucking brilliant piece of television, and I'm glad I gave it a second shot so this thread is now open to old and new fans for views, notions or simple memories about The Sopranos? It's a shame to know there's no more after season 6 but the best television in history usually has a short life.

< Message edited by elab49 -- 26/5/2009 8:45:15 PM >

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

Post #: 1

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 8:22:02 PM

Woger

Posts: 3765
Joined: 30/9/2005

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

_____________________________

Eddie: "Weve been burgaled"
Richie: You may have been, but I have never in my life. As a christian I am so tightly clenched, oh you mean burgaled
- - -
There were originally five horsemen of the apocalypse. Jack Bauer said he would travel by foot

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 2

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 8:35:13 PM

the anomaly

Posts: 6405
Joined: 20/6/2006

I must have seen all the seasons apart from the last one around five times.

Brilliant show...

(in reply to Woger)

Post #: 3

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 8:37:49 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Pretty much everyone is on the show.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Woger)

Post #: 4

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 8:42:16 PM

Woger

Posts: 3765
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Pretty much everyone is on the show.

Fair enough but I just think it sticks out more with her.

_____________________________

Eddie: "Weve been burgaled"
Richie: You may have been, but I have never in my life. As a christian I am so tightly clenched, oh you mean burgaled
- - -
There were originally five horsemen of the apocalypse. Jack Bauer said he would travel by foot

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 5

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:07:39 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Pretty much everyone is on the show.

Not really with the men as much, especially Tony, he doesn't hide behind the veil of Catholicism where as the women do. They may not directly commit the actions that the Mafia do, but they reap the benefits and are happy to use the threat of their husbands when it suits, like with Carmela and Mr Wegler.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 6

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:24:22 PM

paul.mccluskey

Posts: 4961
Joined: 15/4/2007
From: Port Glasgow, Scotland, UK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and�I think AJ is going the same way.

Carmella has no job, yet she thinks she can take Tony for all he's got in the fifth season... bitch! Christopher was one of my favourite characters. A bit too cocky at times, but he was really likeable.

Tony was definitely the best out of all of them. I think that he was a good man at the end of the day. True he had an explosive temper and killed anyone who got in his way, but he would have done anything for his family.

And the greatest episode was in the fourth season, and involved the mad Russian who Chris and Paulie took into the woods to kill, with hilarious results

.

Overall, The Sopranos was amazing. There will never be another American show as awesome and unique.*

Well, maybe The Wire.

< Message edited by paul.mccluskey -- 13/4/2010 7:23:05 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 7

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:25:11 PM

the anomaly

Posts: 6405
Joined: 20/6/2006

Anthony 'Tony' Soprano Sr.: Log off, that "cookies" shit makes me nervous!

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Post #: 8

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:28:54 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Pretty much everyone is on the show.

Not really with the men as much, especially Tony, he doesn't hide behind the veil of Catholicism where as the women do. They may not directly commit the actions that the Mafia do, but they reap the benefits and are happy to use the threat of their husbands when it suits, like with Carmela and Mr Wegler.

Tony is the biggest hypocrtie of the lot. He goes on about the old days and traditonal values, but screws his way through how many woman? He talks about doing good by his family but can never stop himself causing misery when he sees others being happy. He only helps out when he thinks a)he can use it to his advantge in the future or b) if it allows him to justify some other action.

He talks about how he wants to change, but never does. He is as twisted and as bitter as his mother.

Paulie is another one. He loves his mother, claims that only people in the bussiness get hurt. Nope. He is a petty crook.

No one on that show is clean and they all have their little fantasy's about the life they are in which helps them justify what they do. Tony hides behind his family to justify his actions.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 9

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:34:00 PM

Woger

Posts: 3765
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: paul.mccluskey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Carmella has no job, yet she thinks she can take Tony for all he's got in the fifth season... bitch! Christopher was one of my favourite characters. A bit too cocky at times, but he was really likeable.

Tony was definitely the best out of all of them. I think that he was a good man at the end of the day. True he had an explosive temper and killed anyone who got in his way, but he would have done anything for his family.

And the greatest episode was in the fourth season, and involved the mad Russian who Chris and Paulie took into the woods to kill, qith hilarious results .

Overall, The Sopranos was amazing. There will never be another American show as awesome and unique.*

Well, maybe The Wire.

Pine Barrens, think that was the third season. Did Steve Buscemi direct that one? Probably my favourite too.

_____________________________

Eddie: "Weve been burgaled"
Richie: You may have been, but I have never in my life. As a christian I am so tightly clenched, oh you mean burgaled
- - -
There were originally five horsemen of the apocalypse. Jack Bauer said he would travel by foot

(in reply to paul.mccluskey)

Post #: 10

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:35:38 PM

the anomaly

Posts: 6405
Joined: 20/6/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44
No one on that show is clean and they all have their little fantasy's about the life they are in which helps them justify what they do. Tony hides behind his family to justify his actions.

Don't we all ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger
Pine Barrens, think that was the third season. Did Steve Buscemi direct that one? Probably my favourite too.

Pine Barrens is a great episode. One of my favourites. But I won't say it is my number one. There are so many great episodes. Pine Barrens just stands out as it's a brilliant Chirs and Paulie moment.

It's hard to pick a favourite episode as I watch it all on DVD ... so some blur together. Next time I watch I will have to note down some stand out episodes.

< Message edited by the anomaly -- 19/5/2009 9:41:14 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:42:11 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

There are a couple threads but they're way back. I missed bits of episode 4 along the way, you're right about the characters; Carmella is a pure hypocrite as is Meadow no matter how liberal she thinks she is. Christopher has to be one of the biggest losers on tv and I think AJ is going the same way.

Pretty much everyone is on the show.

Not really with the men as much, especially Tony, he doesn't hide behind the veil of Catholicism where as the women do. They may not directly commit the actions that the Mafia do, but they reap the benefits and are happy to use the threat of their husbands when it suits, like with Carmela and Mr Wegler.

Tony is the biggest hypocrtie of the lot. He goes on about the old days and traditonal values, but screws his way through how many woman? He talks about doing good by his family but can never stop himself causing misery when he sees others being happy. He only helps out when he thinks a)he can use it to his advantge in the future or b) if it allows him to justify some other action.

He talks about how he wants to change, but never does. He is as twisted and as bitter as his mother.

Paulie is another one. He loves his mother, claims that only people in the bussiness get hurt. Nope. He is a petty crook.

No one on that show is clean and they all have their little fantasy's about the life they are in which helps them justify what they do. Tony hides behind his family to justify his actions.

Yeah but he doesn't deny it does he, apart from to Carmela? I'm not saying he's right in his actions, of course not, but through Dr Melfi he is honest about his actions. He doesn't pretend to be a faithful husband but he does his duties to what he considers to be the best notions as a father and a husband. He criticises himself openly, and as the series progresses to all those around him, not just Dr Melfi. When does Carmela every does this? She floats around like she's living in a sub-world where whatever transpires through that may be the result of Tony's criminal actions has been touchedby God and she will be fine because of it.

Yes, he is bitter and hiding from the reality of the family gene that inhibited his mother but beneath the bravado and the alpha male role, there is a far much more loving man and I think the whole point of the physciatrist's role is to see that and how they're discussions effect his everyday decisions and his relationships from everyone through from Paulie to Johnny Sack to AJ.

I don't know what you mean about him hiding behind his family, if anything it's Carmela who does it, trying to justify it by claiming it's all to provide her children with the best future possible. Tony does hide behind his "old country" references but between him and his wife he's the more honest in my eyes. I think that's the way David Chase wanted it to be seen as well, shreds of sympathy for Tony.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

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Post #: 12

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:47:43 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Tony is always saying what he does, he does for his family. Its his get out clause.

Classic example of this in play - the stunt he pulls with Robert Patrick and the car. In his mind that is him looking out for his family. To the rest of us its an arsehole rubbing someones face in their misery. When he talks to Melfi he hides behind the doing right by his family.

"I killed this guy, but I always do right by my family!" is his mantra. And as we have seen he does not do right by his family and is in fact quite self centred. He cannot abide others being happy around him.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 13

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:53:09 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

I don't agree about his discussions with Melfi. If anything I think this is the point in the show where he is most brutually honest, sure he throws his money about especially when trying to get her to go on a date with him, but he admits his urges about the world he is in and shows what perhaps we are all in a way attracted to which is danger. I certainly think whatever it's very clever and provocative writing.

Steve Buscemi directed some of the best episodes of the show but I never really bought into his character, Tony B. It felt like an extended cameo.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 14

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:54:01 PM

the anomaly

Posts: 6405
Joined: 20/6/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Tony is always saying what he does, he does for his family. Its his get out clause.

Classic example of this in play - the stunt he pulls with Robert Patrick and the car. In his mind that is him looking out for his family. To the rest of us its an arsehole rubbing someones face in their misery. When he talks to Melfi he hides behind the doing right by his family.

"I killed this guy, but I always do right by my family!" is his mantra. And as we have seen he does not do right by his family and is in fact quite self centred. He cannot abide others being happy around him.

I would still say Tony is family centred. He is happy for his family to be happy...he just likes everything done on his terms.

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Post #: 15

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 9:58:39 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

See, I consider the Dr. Melfi scenes as an example of how Tony continues to hide behind excuses for his behaviour. He says in the first episode that he knows how some of this works- he knows to say the right things. Notice the moments where he looses his temper in that room - its when he is called on his bullshit. He wants the sympathy, but isn't willing to confront some home truths.

I really don't think Chase wants us to see him with sympathy.

Interesting tho how Carmila is getting a lot of criticism. Its understandable, in particular her relationshop with Meadow, but she does make attempts to break away. Something which Tony, for all his words, never does.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

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Post #: 16

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 10:02:35 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Tony is always saying what he does, he does for his family. Its his get out clause.

Classic example of this in play - the stunt he pulls with Robert Patrick and the car. In his mind that is him looking out for his family. To the rest of us its an arsehole rubbing someones face in their misery. When he talks to Melfi he hides behind the doing right by his family.

"I killed this guy, but I always do right by my family!" is his mantra. And as we have seen he does not do right by his family and is in fact quite self centred. He cannot abide others being happy around him.

I would still say Tony is family centred. He is happy for his family to be happy...he just likes everything done on his terms.

Sure but thats the important bit...on his terms. He doesn't just want his family to be happy. He wants them to be happy and grateful to him and even then he can't help but drag people into his misery over the little things. He and Janice are not all that unlike, its just that they approcah it from different angles.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to the anomaly)

Post #: 17

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 10:15:15 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

quote:

I really don't think Chase wants us to see him with sympathy.

I listened to a few of the DVD commentaries and it seemed he did.

I think it's kind of the whole point of the show, to test the viewer on whether they think it's an open and shut case of a crime family which I certainly don't think it is. Silvio grows on me a lot throughout the show, he's very cheesy and cliched at points, especially during his Scarface impersanaitions but you don't see as much of his unfaithful and devlisih side as the other mobsters though. Bobby Baccala as well although he needs to be exposed a bit more, between his wife's death and his very sudden marriage to Janice, he almost becomes a bit irrelevant and a tad tedious in his almost pathetic manner.

Season 4 and 5 seem very different from the other seasons, they seem to rush through storylines and underdramatise certain story strands, like Gene's suicide whereas the first 4 seasons are slower but more examining and far better in my eyes.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

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Post #: 18

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 10:18:42 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

I think a big part of the show is Chase having a debate with himself about the usefullness of psychothearpy. I don't think he actully buys it as a tool to resolve anything.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

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Post #: 19

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 10:20:06 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

Very possibly, it's very intelligent television making, a lot more than any other US TV drama I've seen in a long time. What else has Chase done?

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

Last Film Watched: Flight ****

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Post #: 20

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 10:25:40 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Nothing that I can recall. Think he was a showrunner on a number of shows in the 80s and 90s.

Looking forward to his history of Hollywood series.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Goodfella)

Post #: 21

RE: The Sopranos - 19/5/2009 11:11:47 PM

CORLEONE

Posts: 4599
Joined: 2/11/2005
From: Green and Pleasant Land

Would be the best TV show ever if it wasn't for the misfiring final season. So many great characters: Chrissy, Tony, Paulie, Sil, Junior, Johnny Sack. Very funny as well in places. Pine Barrens anyone?

I'll be dropping quotes a lot:

Junior: Did you hear about the Chinese Godfather? He made them an offer they couldn't understand...

< Message edited by CORLEONE -- 19/5/2009 11:13:18 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: The Sopranos - 20/5/2009 8:28:33 AM

Keyser Sozzled

Posts: 5950
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin

Goodfella, it's interesting to hear your points regarding Tony's honesty with Melfi. However I would strongly advsie you watch to the end (no doubt you will cos you seem to be loving it!) and then look back at their interaction. It's pretty powerful.

Personally for me I thought the stand out episode was Eployee of the month where...................SPOILERS...........................

Melfi gets raped but she declines to tell Tony even though she knows one word and the guy is gone

END SPOILERS

You want it to happen, so badly, but I love the fact that it is what we want as an audience, but it is 100% not what the character would do. I remember being blown away by that

Also Pine Barrens......."Don't pull rank on me! We are just two assholes lost in the snow!" Genius !

< Message edited by Keyser Sozzled -- 20/5/2009 8:29:24 AM >

_____________________________

I have no idea who any of them are, apart from Terry Pratchett who I know has got a beard and keeps going on about killing himself but never does.

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Post #: 23

RE: The Sopranos - 20/5/2009 9:40:18 AM

Gram123

Posts: 5666
Joined: 19/1/2006
From: Reino Unido

I've been re-watching the series this year. I originally got Seasons 1-4 for a birthday gift, getting me up to date at that point, and then I picked up the last 3 boxsets as they were released.
I talked Mrs 123 into watching it this time round, and I'm really glad that she's got into it. I find that I remembered all of the major events (big characters getting shot, the separation, characters speaking to the FBI and so forth), but there's just such a quantity of it that a lot of stuff has obviously leaked out of my mind.
Next up for us is S6 E3.

I must say, I think some of the female actors in this series are amazing. You mightn't really like their characters, but they are well written parts and excellently acted. Edie Falco (Carmela) and Aida Tuturro (Janice) are particularly good.

_____________________________

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Post #: 24

RE: The Sopranos - 20/5/2009 3:12:02 PM

Dantes Inferno

Posts: 5885
Joined: 27/10/2007
From: Norway

* * spoilers * *

I've been a fan of The Sopranos for quite some time ago. Watched S6 as it aired on TV (not everything, but a lot), and started all over with S1, and have now reached S5 (only two episodes in, though).

To me, the show is very uneven. At its best, it's fantastic, but some of the storylines feel repetetive after a while. One snitch is substituted for another one (Pussy - Adriana) and the show's antagonists follow the same deal (Junior - Richie - Ralphie - Phil). The latter aspect I especially have a problem with, as it makes us feel extra sympathetic towards Tony because there is someone worse than him (Richie being the prime example as he lacked sympathy). To me, that is kind of like cheating. You get to watch the "bad guy", but he becomes the "good guy" because his enemy is some asshole with no redemptive qualities.

Sometimes I also get the feeling that Chase is shoving the fact that the show is on cable television too much down into the audience's throat. I mean, I know there's supposed to be violence and language, and I have no problem with that, but all the scenes of Tony screwing around become tiresome after a while. We get it, he's not good at being faithful.

However, there are plenty of good sides as well. The acting is fantastic, the writing is superb, and I can't get enough of those Tony-Melfi conversations, which I feel is one of the show's bigger strengths. I may seem to have concentrated too much on the negative sides, but my opinion on this show is very positive.

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Post #: 25

RE: The Sopranos - 21/5/2009 8:03:24 AM

Keyser Sozzled

Posts: 5950
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin

Dante the idea behind the atogonists all following teh same path, or wanting the same thing is deliberate. The world of the "family" is so closed off there is no avenues except up. The idea being that when you are in you stay where you are or go for power. I like the fact that over the course of the 6 seasons it become apparent that its a constant cycle ofr snitches, rivals etc....

The Melfi-Tony conversations are fantastic. Apparently David Chase & Lorraine Bracco was invited to the American Physciatrist dinner a few years back to share her insights on the profession.....they had to tell them that the conversations were basically fictional, there was no involvement from any shrink !

_____________________________

I have no idea who any of them are, apart from Terry Pratchett who I know has got a beard and keeps going on about killing himself but never does.

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Post #: 26

RE: The Sopranos - 21/5/2009 9:57:17 AM

Dantes Inferno

Posts: 5885
Joined: 27/10/2007
From: Norway

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

Dante the idea behind the atogonists all following teh same path, or wanting the same thing is deliberate. The world of the "family" is so closed off there is no avenues except up. The idea being that when you are in you stay where you are or go for power. I like the fact that over the course of the 6 seasons it become apparent that its a constant cycle ofr snitches, rivals etc....

I understand that, but it still bugs me a bit, though more the antagonists than the snitches. Of course there are people like that in the mafia, but Chase drives the point home it's basically in the garage.

I mean, look at The Wire. That's another crime show, one that is rooted in one of the most familiar of genres, the cop genre, and that show had fresh stories every season, while at the same time showing that everything goes in circle without taking it out on the audience (not gonna go in specifics in fear of spoilers).

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Post #: 27

RE: The Sopranos - 25/5/2009 7:53:00 PM

Goodfella

Posts: 15468
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon

Ok, so I finished this last night and the ending had me up bugging me most of the night. This is what I think, I could be tremendously wrong...

There's a lot of build-up of tension to each family member arriving at Holston's. This runs parrallel with some shady looking characters entering the restaurant as Tony sits and waits. Even though Phil Letardo is dead am I right in saying there is still a contract on Tony's head with outside hitmen (the two who killed Bobby and Sil weren't part of New York were they?) so you don't know whether he is still a marked man. As Meadow attempts to park her car he failures run alongside the Italian American looking guy who goes to the toilet and the two African Americans who seem to catch Tony's attention. The most interesting bit is right at the end though and the way it is cut - you see Meadow walk towards the door but you never see her touch it or open it. You then cut to Tony looking up as the door opens and then it goes to black. Is there a hint it may not be Meadow that opens the door and rather more his killer? Is this, like the entire show, yet another morale question. Do you think Tony deserves to live or die?

A friend just seems to think the whole scene is showing the carry-on of their family life and that things will just carry on for Tony much the same, friends will come and go, turn their back on him, attempt to kill him, get killed themselves. Quite often major storylines in the series have been wrapped up with Tony and the family eating, it's quite often how they resolve their differences, over food. Is this poignant, is it just bringing the whole saga to an end? Not too sure how the whole Carlo flipping thing fits in though.

As for my earlier observations, they remain pretty much the same I have to say. Only Tony killing Chris seemed to nudge me towards changing my views as his paranoia and desperation became ever more apparent but I still stand behind my earlier views.

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Post #: 28

RE: The Sopranos - 25/5/2009 8:52:41 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18934
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

Here is what I wrote about the finale when it aired -SPOILERS!!!

Look at the family in the final scene. Then watch them in the first episode. Have any of them really changed? Tony is still a self centred asshole, Carm is still passive aggressive (the 'birth control' comment comes from the jealously she has held for a daughter for a while) AJ may be perhaps a little more grown up but he still has his moments and Meadow, who almost broke away from it all, is now safely back in the family and willing to turn a blind eye to what her father does. They are all hypoctics and will remain so.

The point of the final scene I think is Chase is telling us these people will never change but will 'go on and on' as they are.

Think about the show as a whole - who has actully changed? Who has developed? We are always told great drama is about character development, but it doesn't happen here. Chase should be commended for that.

Another scene I thought was telling was when Paulie came to the dinner table at the funeral, alone and surronded by the next generation of the families. If you went back 20 years it might have been Junior coming to a table with Tony, Janice, Carm, Big Pussy, Paulie etc. Now these guys are old news. Paulie, the last guy left, is getting more and more odd and doesn't look to have many more years left in him. The shot of him alone, with the cat (who has to be Chris) sums up everything he has to offer the world. No children, no future.

I don't understand the need for a bloodbath in the finale - look at these nine episodes and all the death, not to mention the Phil head crush of the finale. It is a more fitting punishment to Tony to live in the same bullshit he always has, and for the audience for being on his side for the duration of the show. We don't get the chance to feel better about ourselves for supporting Tony, who is a monster, by seeing him gunned down. I think that might be where some of the frustration about the finale comes from - it makes us feel better when horrible people who we liked, or someone close to them, are killed. Too bad - criminals don't always get their just desserts and crooks do win. Its uncomfortable, but truer to life.

The cut to black happens at the moment Meadow comes into the shop, the ducks are home, and for now things are good. The red herrings are fun but as far as any literal killing, I just don't see it. We could have just been given an inside view of Tonys paranioa, but the point is the family dynamic.

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Post #: 29

RE: The Sopranos - 25/5/2009 10:01:40 PM

elab49

Posts: 52031
Joined: 1/10/2005

Edit.

As a one-off because of the update to the index, this thread will now supercede the original thread. Please note the one-off - we don't want this used as a precedent for not using search and starting multiple threads on one show.

The index is updated if one of the mods notices a new thread for a new show or someone posts in the Index thread. If it is missed, we'd appreciate it if you used the search function too before posting.

Cheers

< Message edited by elab49 -- 26/5/2009 8:48:41 PM >

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Post #: 30