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Top 1000 Project - Administration Thread - 6/5/2009 6:43:12 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
PLEASE READ for FAQs about the thread

1. Myself, PA, Miles, Acho and PB are counting the votes.

2. If you want to take part and submit a list, please sign up at
http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2354635 all are welcome, we just need to know who's taking part.

3. Do not post lists on the board. All lists to be sent by email to
empireforum.top1000@gmail.com 

4. The list will consist of 100 films.

5. The list will be ranked 1 - 100

6. There will be a possible vote bump for films depending on the number of lists they appear on.

7. Short films are eligible of any length. There's also another list running for short films only.

8. Mini-series are to be taken on a case-by-case basis. There really is no other way we can work the mini-series votes. It seems silly to disqualify ones that have been widely accepted in film lists for years, but at the same time it's impossible to predict everything that could crop up. So use common sense. Dekalog, Berlin Alexanderplatz etc are obvious ones to be accepted, but something like Band of Brothers is highly unlikely to be accepted. Any problematic entries we'll chase up with the individuals by pm.

9. Short film lists are to include 50 shorts and be sent to empireshorts@hotmail.co.uk

10. Short film list counters are myself, Miles, Elab and TRM

11. We've decided a select handful of trilogies will be allowed to voted for as one entry, based solely on artistic intent. Lord of the Rings, Kill Bill, The Human Condition, The Terence Davies Trilogy, The Samurai Trilogy and Grindhouse. If you're wondering why Grindhouse is accepted, it's basically an anthology movie and there's more than one of those with multiple directors that we wouldn't even dream of saying are ineligible.

12. All other trilogies/franchises are to be voted for as individual films. If a voter feels there's something we've overlooked and makes a compelling case for it then we may let it through. But again, use common sense.

13.
The points system will be as follows.

1-5 = 40 pts
6-10 = 30 pts
11-20 = 25 pts
21-30 = 20 pts
31- 40 = 15 pts
41-50 = 10 pts
51-70 = 8 pts
71- 85 = 5pts
86-100 = 3 pts

We're hoping that there's a wide enough variety of points to cut down on the potential of tie votes there. With this system we're also giving more weight to the films at the top end of the list, but not to the extent where it's overbalanced with the number one choice getting 100 points and number 100 only getting 1. This might also be easier for people who find it difficult to rank your choices, you know you can put them in ranked blocks rather than as ranked individual choices.


Mini-series and trilogies so far suggested include

Mini-series

Dekalog (Objection)
Das Boot
Heimat (Objection)
Fanny and Alexander
Scenes From A Marriage
Saraband
Berlin Alexanderplatz
The Best of Youth
Red Riding (Objection)
Riget
The War Game

Trilogies

LOTR (Objection)
Kill Bill (Objection)
The Apu Trilogy (Objection)
Star Wars (Objection)
Bourne (Objection)
Godfather (Objection)
Three Colours (Objection)
Matrix (Objection)
Distant Voices, Still Lives/The Long Day Closes
Bill Douglas Trilogy
Terence Davies Trilogy
Wajda War Trilogy
Grindhouse (Objection)
Mick Travis Trilogy (Objection)
Orpheus Trilogy (Objection)
Bergman's 'Faith' Trilogy (Objection)

The results of the short film vote were

Yes: 12 (Myself, Barkers, Jackie Boy, Gimli, TMWNS, Piles, JBG, Fritzlfan, Olaf, Swordsandsandals, Deviation, Dedalus1988)
No: 10 (Miles, Elab, RichCie, Acho, TRM, Rinc, Gram, PA, PB,Fernetcontonica)


List Index

This is a set of links to  lists of other top 1000 films from various place around the web

TSPDT:
Top 1000
http://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000_all1000films.htm
Doubling the canon (2000)
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pOLZvGru3GAkcG8B62ffbbQ
Starting list (7900)
http://www.theyshootpictures.com/StartingList.xls

Empire top 500:
http://www.empireonline.com/500/

IMDB top 250 (constantly changing) if ANYONE would want to use THAT as a reference :
http://www.imdb.com/chart/top

Sight And Sound (pretty much TSPDT cut down):

Former top 10s:
http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/history/

Current Critics top 10:
http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/poll/critics.html

Current directors top 10:
http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/poll/directors.html

Cahiers du cinema yearly lists:
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~ejohnson/critics/cahiers.html

Rosenbaum's 1000
 
http://www.alsolikelife.com/FilmDiary/rosenbaum.html

The Life Cinematic
 
http://www.thelifecinematic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3702

David Thomson's 1000
 
http://www.thelifecinematic.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2718

Guardian 1000
 
http://film.guardian.co.uk/1000films/0,,2108487,00.html

New York Times 1000

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/movies/1000best.html

AFI
 
http://connect.afi.com/site/PageServer?pagename=100YearsList 

Short Films on Youtube

http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2123506&mpage=3&key=&NID=0#2457961

That thread has a big list of youtube links

< Message edited by Pigeon Army -- 14/12/2009 10:23:08 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:44:27 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
I was first The mods can delete my thread though.
I am still pro-email, BTW.


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 2
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:45:29 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

I was first The mods can delete my thread though.
I am still pro-email, BTW.



Maybe the threads can be merged. The problem with email is that for some reason they never get to me through the board. I'd have to have pms.

(in reply to Miles Messervy 007)
Post #: 3
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:46:24 PM   
PB~!


Posts: 804
Joined: 4/1/2008
With regards to multi-listed films, I think they should only get a bump if there is a tie.

Example:

Ghost Town recieves number 1 vote = 100 points
The Scorpion King gets 2 number 50 votes = 100 points

Should Ghost Town be higher because of it's number one placing?  Or Scorpion King becuase it got two votes?


_____________________________

no guilt in life, no fear in death

Check out my Hitchcockian Adventure in Lists and Top 10's
http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2209701

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 4
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:46:56 PM   
barkers101


Posts: 2507
Joined: 19/2/2008
PMs can only allow 4900 characters which is a problem

_____________________________

"Man is born crying, When he has cried enough, he dies"

quote:

ORIGINAL: TRM

I will join as long as we can spell Mozoguchi's name right


Vote for you Favourite World Cinema DVD here!

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 5
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:47:05 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3907
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
Ack! I refreshed in time to see Mile's thread, but not this one! The opening post in this one probably gives more info though. I'm just going to copy and paste, so there'll be some overlap with rawlinson's initial post.



A summary (of sorts) of what we're looking for:

~ To create a Top 1000 films
~ Compiled from individual Top 100 lists from forum members

Issues to be decided:
~ Greatest or Favourite?
~ Trilogies (and the like) to be considered separately or together?
~ Shorts/mini-series to be included?
~ Weighting of lists?
   - points bump for titles on a fixed % of lists
   - points allocation to be either a straight 100 to 1 or grouped
~ submission of lists (multiple PMs or set up an email account)
~ deadlines (suggested we have it done by Christmas, so open up threads in advance of this, for people to discuss potential entries and for others to get suggestions of "great" films they might want to watch/re-watch before final submission)

Any thoughts on the above? Or anything else to be added to the "to be decided" list?




_____________________________



(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 6
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:48:25 PM   
FritzlFan


Posts: 4793
Joined: 19/11/2008
From: Bristol
I think it would be best to include both shorts and mini-series or neither.

How about having a minimum amount of foreign films? Not too many though, 15/20 perhaps?


< Message edited by FritzlFan -- 6/5/2009 6:50:08 PM >


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

Child labour is necessary in the short term




(in reply to Acho)
Post #: 7
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:49:47 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: barkers101

PMs can only allow 4900 characters which is a problem


Acho just had a nice idea of setting up an email account. It could be a random one that all the counters can access. That might be easier for everyone involved.

(in reply to barkers101)
Post #: 8
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:50:37 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3907
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: barkers101

PMs can only allow 4900 characters which is a problem


Two PMs will usually do the trick though. As was pointed out in the other thread, a lot of titles won't need all the info, the counters will have that (unless someone really does prefer the 1998 Rear Window, in which case, specify that! ). A separate email account can be set up quite easily too though, for general group communication. Lists can be submitted via either medium - it'll be up to the counters to liaise and make sure no one is left out or counted twice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PB~!
With regards to multi-listed films, I think they should only get a bump if there is a tie.

Example:

Ghost Town recieves number 1 vote = 100 points
The Scorpion King gets 2 number 50 votes = 100 points

Should Ghost Town be higher because of it's number one placing?  Or Scorpion King becuase it got two votes?


I definitely agree with a bump for a tie, and I think the more lists a film is on, the higher it places, all other points being equal.





_____________________________



(in reply to barkers101)
Post #: 9
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:50:54 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: PB~!

With regards to multi-listed films, I think they should only get a bump if there is a tie.

Example:

Ghost Town recieves number 1 vote = 100 points
The Scorpion King gets 2 number 50 votes = 100 points

Should Ghost Town be higher because of it's number one placing?  Or Scorpion King becuase it got two votes?



That was my first thought, only in the event of a tie, but Elab raised a good point about the list being more accurate if we took into account frequency as well as ranking. I think it's something else we need to vote on.

(in reply to PB~!)
Post #: 10
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:51:15 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
Minimum amount=no. We can't force someone to include something. Setting up an e-mail account would be superb.
I replied to the post in my own thread, merging would be great


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 11
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:52:09 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

I think it would be best to include both shorts and mini-series or neither.

How about having a minimum amount of foreign films? Not too many though, 15/20 perhaps?



I don't know, it feels a little like dictating content.

(in reply to FritzlFan)
Post #: 12
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:53:59 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3907
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

I think it would be best to include both shorts and mini-series or neither.

How about having a minimum amount of foreign films? Not too many though, 15/20 perhaps?



I don't know, it feels a little like dictating content.


Yeah, it's like a mis-applied positive discrimination. I think a top 1000 list will through up a helluva lot more foreign-language films regardless.


_____________________________



(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 13
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:54:09 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Ok, a couple of issues that need to be decided by vote.

1. The inclusion of short films.
2. The inclusion of mini-series.
3. The possibility of a vote bump.
4. If there is a vote bump, should it be only for ties, or for films that show up on a certain number of lists?
5. Greatest, favourite or mix?

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 14
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:55:42 PM   
PB~!


Posts: 804
Joined: 4/1/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

I think it would be best to include both shorts and mini-series or neither.

How about having a minimum amount of foreign films? Not too many though, 15/20 perhaps?



I definitely don't agree with this.  It would a) alienate some people and b) not allow a ture ref;ection of people's favourites.


_____________________________

no guilt in life, no fear in death

Check out my Hitchcockian Adventure in Lists and Top 10's
http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2209701

(in reply to FritzlFan)
Post #: 15
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:55:43 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3907
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: PB~!

With regards to multi-listed films, I think they should only get a bump if there is a tie.

Example:

Ghost Town recieves number 1 vote = 100 points
The Scorpion King gets 2 number 50 votes = 100 points

Should Ghost Town be higher because of it's number one placing?  Or Scorpion King becuase it got two votes?



That was my first thought, only in the event of a tie, but Elab raised a good point about the list being more accurate if we took into account frequency as well as ranking. I think it's something else we need to vote on.


A system which allowed for this would be great. I'm happy to defer to Elab's suggestions on how to create and apply one though, she knows this stuff better than us. I want fancy words like 'algorithm' to be used at least twice on every page of this thread!


_____________________________



(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 16
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:55:54 PM   
barkers101


Posts: 2507
Joined: 19/2/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

Ok, a couple of issues that need to be decided by vote.

1. The inclusion of short films.
2. The inclusion of mini-series.
3. The possibility of a vote bump.
4. If there is a vote bump, should it be only for ties, or for films that show up on a certain number of lists?
5. Greatest, favourite or mix?


Yes

Yes

Yes

Ties

Favourite


< Message edited by barkers101 -- 6/5/2009 6:56:34 PM >


_____________________________

"Man is born crying, When he has cried enough, he dies"

quote:

ORIGINAL: TRM

I will join as long as we can spell Mozoguchi's name right


Vote for you Favourite World Cinema DVD here!

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 17
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:56:03 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
1. Separate tournament or no
2. Separate tournament or yes
3. Yes
4. Always, exponentially
5. Favourite


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 18
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:57:11 PM   
FritzlFan


Posts: 4793
Joined: 19/11/2008
From: Bristol
quote:

ORIGINAL: Acho

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

I think it would be best to include both shorts and mini-series or neither.

How about having a minimum amount of foreign films? Not too many though, 15/20 perhaps?



I don't know, it feels a little like dictating content.


Yeah, it's like a mis-applied positive discrimination. I think a top 1000 list will through up a helluva lot more foreign-language films regardless.



I'm not too sure on the idea myself, it's just that it would be a shame to have members dissapointed with the results, seeing as this is quite an ambitious project.


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

Child labour is necessary in the short term




(in reply to Acho)
Post #: 19
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 6:58:37 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
We can't make them include foreign films, but we can try to make them watch them, which should be enough

_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to FritzlFan)
Post #: 20
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:02:01 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
My own votes

1. The inclusion of short films. - Yes

2. The inclusion of mini-series. - Yes, only if short films are also included. Otherwise, no. And if they are included, it raises another question about eligibility.

3. The possibility of a vote bump. - Yes

4. If there is a vote bump, should it be only for ties, or for films that show up on a certain number of lists?

I'm in favour of yes for ties, also yes for certain number of lists, but only if it's at least 10% of lists and the film in question is place 51 or under on all lists. Otherwise, just for ties.

5. Greatest, favourite or mix?

Do as y'all feel.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 21
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:04:58 PM   
barkers101


Posts: 2507
Joined: 19/2/2008
I wanna get started 





we're all nerds...


_____________________________

"Man is born crying, When he has cried enough, he dies"

quote:

ORIGINAL: TRM

I will join as long as we can spell Mozoguchi's name right


Vote for you Favourite World Cinema DVD here!

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 22
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:05:21 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
Group point allocation would avoid all the bumps discussion and make it a fairer list. 100 to 1 is way too much. Maybe we can use 100 to 1 as a tie-breaker or whatever.

_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 23
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:06:05 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
colour me interested.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 24
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:08:10 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

Group point allocation would avoid all the bumps discussion and make it a fairer list. 100 to 1 is way too much. Maybe we can use 100 to 1 as a tie-breaker or whatever.


But you're going to have so many ties with group point allocation. It may make the initial vote count easier, but you'll spend all day breaking ties and it'll make everything feel blocky as a result.

(in reply to Miles Messervy 007)
Post #: 25
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:08:21 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
So, we have 5 people for counting: me, rawlinson, acho, PA, PB. Where is PC, BTW?
All of these will presumably submit a list. Who else wants to?
6.adam
7.barkers
8.TRM
9.elab
10.FritzlFan
11.JackieBoy
Feel free to add yourself to the list.


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to adambatman82)
Post #: 26
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:09:33 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

Group point allocation would avoid all the bumps discussion and make it a fairer list. 100 to 1 is way too much. Maybe we can use 100 to 1 as a tie-breaker or whatever.


But you're going to have so many ties with group point allocation. It may make the initial vote count easier, but you'll spend all day breaking ties and it'll make everything feel blocky as a result.
Then bumps it is.


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 27
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:11:54 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3907
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
1. The inclusion of short films. - sure
2. The inclusion of mini-series. - sure (although does that influence the 'trilogies viewed separately' issue?)
3. The possibility of a vote bump. - yes
4. If there is a vote bump, should it be only for ties, or for films that show up on a certain number of lists? - I've decided just for ties myself, more below.
5. Greatest, favourite or mix? - I think the reality will be a mix - what we view as great tends to be influenced by what we like

Regarding point 4:
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson
at least 10% of lists and the film in question is place 51 or under on all lists.

the more I think of it, the more I'm not sure about it.
If film X is on 20 lists and is #51 or less on each, then why should it get a bump over film Y, which is also on 20 lists but is #50 or higher. Y is clearly rated more highly than X and the final points should reflect this.

I'm not sure if that contradicts my point above about having a system that reflects frequency as well as ranking, but I guess it's the distinction that I have issue with - why artificially bump up a film that is consistently lower down people's lists?



_____________________________



(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 28
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:12:09 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
Mini-series. Here's the problem as I see it, where do we draw the line? Is it something six parts or less? Is it something longer as long as it tells one story? Where do we stand with regard to critics who include The Wire or The Sopranos among their film recommendations? Even David Thomson wrote about The Sopranos in his recent top 1000 book. Also, what about t.v. films? Everyone tends to count something like Duel as a film, despite its television roots, but what about something like Trilogy of Terror? What about stand-alone episodes from an anthology series? If we're including mini-series what's to stop them being voted for as films/shorts? Where are we drawing the line?

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 29
RE: Top 1000 Project - 6/5/2009 7:12:15 PM   
The Bicycle Thief


Posts: 195
Joined: 8/11/2008
No way; do not put a minimum on the amount of foreign films in everyone's list. What if someone hasn't seen 15 foreign films (unlikely I know), but it's a individual's list. If someone wants their list to be dominated by American and English cinema, then let them.

As for the Favourites vs Greatest argument I prefer the former as it'll probably get us a much nicer list that's exclusively of this forum, as opposed to being just another Sight & Sound.

Edit: and like I said, I'm more than happy to do images for as many films as you need. May I suggest that they be the same size so it looks neat?


< Message edited by The Bicycle Thief -- 6/5/2009 7:14:29 PM >

(in reply to rawlinson)
Post #: 30
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