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RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 27/5/2009 8:58:04 AM   
rikkie


Posts: 4662
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ego Tripping At The Gates Of Hell
Banned users don't have the right to retort to anything that's being said about them or defend themselves, as once a user is banned, that's it - no recourse for further discussion (except in rare cases of successful appeal). Discussing them encourages them to hang around as an anonymous user revelling in their notoriety or irritatingly for us, encourages aliases to be created.

That's why we don't allow endless rabbiting about them.



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Post #: 151
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 27/5/2009 9:56:16 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rikkie

Banned users don't have the right to retort to anything that's being said about them or defend themselves, as once a user is banned, that's it - no recourse for further discussion (except in rare cases of successful appeal). Discussing them encourages them to hang around as an anonymous user revelling in their notoriety or irritatingly for us, encourages aliases to be created.

That's why we don't allow endless rabbiting about them.




I'm not proposing endless rabbiting, not at all, but if they come up in conversation, I don't see why we can't mediate ourselves in this respect. You do bring up the case of them not being able to defend themselves, and how their desire to do so may force them to create alias, and I do see where you're coming from there, but at the same time, there are plenty who weren't, by and large, dicks, and just happened to go off the rails at the end, and they're lumped in with the nasty trolls and the trolls who did troll, but were hilarious while trolling, and the large majority of them wouldn't harangue the forums constantly, looking for ins. Once again, I'm not proposing whole threads and subforums on them - there does need to be a limit - but does the ban need to be, well, a ban? I think that there should be a threshold re: how far convos can go on them, but just generally banning mention of all of them, unequivocally, whether their banning has been explained or announced or not or whether they were good leading up to the ban or not, seems a little extreme.

That's just where I'm coming from, and I can appreciate your viewpoint. I just don't necessarily agree with it. There should be limits on discussions of the banned, yes, but not an outright ban on discussions of them.


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ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

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Post #: 152
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 27/5/2009 11:47:06 AM   
Funkyrae


Posts: 20418
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just stick a pin in a map
Generally speaking PA, people aren't just given an automatic ban for "going off the rails".  There's more to it than that.  Usually there are a number of warnings given before the ban is set in place. 

Rules state that it is one person, one account.  One alter-ego to bind us all.  Any aliases created have to be binned.  Discussion of banned members is simply unfair to the person banned.  They're not here to either defend themselves or join in with their praise. 

While I do understand the temptation PA, it's not like there aren't other areas on the tinterweb for talking to or about those banned members and there are plenty of other sections here on the forum to keep you entertained. 

It also has to be said, from experience, that it isn't usually somebody's name that comes up in conversation and that's it.  Normally, these things tend to go on for pages.


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Post #: 153
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/6/2009 7:57:42 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
Just encountered this thread. It seems that the 5 months weren't enough to take any of the suggestions in. My thoughts:
I'd be for nickname change, but only ONCE for any member. Surely, this would be much less work for mods that even the title changes, and these can be as suggested changed for a month to formerly ....
Second the different colours or underlining for links.
Don't mind the discussion about banned members, although I feel the mods should create a thread with replies disabled where they state why X was banned, as this could help people to understand what happened like PA said. You're right, they can't defend themselves, but if only the mods post, they were the ones who banned the user and thus will not go overboard with praise or accusations, as my idea will be announcement only.
I am against removing the post count, the stars could be removed and I wouldn't mind. I agree that eg Fun and Games post counts should be frozen since they are the reason I have 1500 and not 1000 posts (although I stopped actively posting there).
I second the reduction of forum numbers, especially DVD club.
I think that about covers the discussions prevalent in this thread, and I have a new suggestion:
the Thunderdome contest has little to do with the current idea of HoF, and 'great threads through the ages' is incredibly misleading. In the wake of the ever-increasing number of tournaments, I propose to move Thunderdome somewhere else and rename HoF 'contests and tournaments' or something. This would eg remove the top 1000  related discussion from lists.
PS. Felix, do you have two different avatars you switch between all the time or am I hallucinating?


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jamesbondguy:
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quote:

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if it isn't ham, I'll eat a living pig.

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Post #: 154
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 12/6/2009 7:17:50 PM   
UTB


Posts: 9993
Joined: 30/9/2005
Can we have a Blu Ray subforum in DVD Discussion please?

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Post #: 155
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 12/6/2009 9:15:03 PM   
Felix

 

Posts: 15692
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

PS. Felix, do you have two different avatars you switch between all the time or am I hallucinating?



It does it automatically, I dont actually change them myself that regularly

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Post #: 156
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 15/6/2009 5:07:10 PM   
Epiphany Demon


Posts: 6497
Joined: 14/11/2007
Okay here's my very small list of changes I'd like:

* The ability to change your name once and only once. I don't like having Epiphany Demon anymore, I'd much rather just Epiphany, or of course my amazing nickname of Epi D. All changes would be up to mods though.
* Get rid of the stars and keep the post count, I like knowing how many I have.
* Maybe issue a Reputation system? It works on this other forum I go on, and would allow you to boost a member's kudos if they say something particularly helpful, hilarious or awesome; kinda like an eBay feedback? Here's some pictures

[image]http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4280/snapshot20090615170218.tif[/image]
[image]http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6157/snapshot20090615170249.tif[/image]
[image]http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6632/snapshot20090615170339.tif[/image]

EDIT: Well there should be pictures if someone else can get it to work that'd be cool. Or just copy and paste?

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Post #: 157
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 15/6/2009 9:34:01 PM   
richCie


Posts: 4028
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: Wells, England
i like the idea of the reputation system actually, only place i can think of seeing it though is on slashfilm not sure how it'd work on a forum like this as its only replies to news stories on slash film, and considering the frequency of feuds on here (even if theyre not serious) might mean someone would get really low rep. you know like Miles for everytime he mentions nick cave :P

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Post #: 158
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 15/6/2009 9:36:55 PM   
Olaf


Posts: 23709
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41°N 93°W
quote:

ORIGINAL: richCie

i like the idea of the reputation system actually, only place i can think of seeing it though is on slashfilm not sure how it'd work on a forum like this as its only replies to news stories on slash film, and considering the frequency of feuds on here (even if theyre not serious) might mean someone would get really low rep. you know like Miles for everytime he mentions nick cave :P


The man's obsessed!

I reckon it could work btw, if maybe just for news stories/reviews.

< Message edited by Olaf -- 15/6/2009 9:37:05 PM >


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Post #: 159
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 15/6/2009 10:40:36 PM   
richCie


Posts: 4028
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: Wells, England

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: richCie

i like the idea of the reputation system actually, only place i can think of seeing it though is on slashfilm not sure how it'd work on a forum like this as its only replies to news stories on slash film, and considering the frequency of feuds on here (even if theyre not serious) might mean someone would get really low rep. you know like Miles for everytime he mentions nick cave :P


The man's obsessed!

I reckon it could work btw, if maybe just for news stories/reviews.


actually that's a nice idea - the reviews bit- though again it could end up being ruined by people just voting for reviews they agree with rather than for example incisive and well written reviews. if it worked it'd be very cool but im not sure it would.

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Post #: 160
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 16/6/2009 9:30:30 PM   
Your Funny Uncle


Posts: 11998
Joined: 14/11/2005
From: The Deepest Depths Of Joypad.....
quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB

Can we have a Blu Ray subforum in DVD Discussion please?


I think that is one of the most sensible and logical ideas in this thread. I was just discussing this with a fellow forumite who pointed me in the direction of this thread that had slipped under my radar. Luckily I'm not the only person who had thought of this which is a good sign. Having a 'Blu Ray' subforum in DVD Discussion seems a natural progression and will seperate the two formats making things a lot easier to find and in turn read.

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Post #: 161
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 25/6/2009 10:51:11 AM   
Beno


Posts: 8134
Joined: 15/2/2007
From: Sheffield
Why are threads occasionally locked for no good reason ? I started a thead yesterday in Fun n Games called "Tennis Grunts" werein you post a funny pic. and type a grunting sound to go with said pic. . Now , i started it off with a pic. of a Woman who looked like Mickey Rourkes Sister nothing offensive , she was fully clothed - unlike pics in other threads in here - and less than 24 hours later it gets locked with no explanation given .
Now this thread could have been quite funny , maybe would'nt have lasted too long , but could have lasted as long as Wimbledon . None of my Forum buddies - who had'nt even been online - even got the chance to go near it . You see thats what we do sometimes . We talk to each other via PMs , suggest ideas for threads and support each others threads with posts . No thread ever gets longer than it should though . Many threads die a death after a few posts and we let them go . This one never even drew breath and i'd like some explanation please .

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Post #: 162
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 25/6/2009 1:23:40 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54674
Joined: 1/10/2005
I didn't lock it but having looked it out it is pretty foul. I'd suggest the reason is pretty clearly offensiveness.

But your best bet for a response isn't posting here but, generally, trying a mod to get a direct response.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 163
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 25/6/2009 1:56:30 PM   
Beno


Posts: 8134
Joined: 15/2/2007
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I didn't lock it but having looked it out it is pretty foul. I'd suggest the reason is pretty clearly offensiveness.

But your best bet for a response isn't posting here but, generally, trying a mod to get a direct response.


You are kidding right ?? What offense ? We have nudity and swearing all over these forums , my thread had neither. If ever i use a swear word i always either mispell or use a #!* type to disguise but plenty dont . As for the nudity i'm all for it but im sure others are'nt . Clearly offensive ? Could you see a different picture from the one i posted ? I have had one PM from a Forumite who said he was next going to post the iconic pic. from 300 of Gerard Butler . I'm afraid someone has overreacted big time . It was going to be a fun thread , an excuse to post funny pics. and be silly ...... not any offense in a million miles .
I love you all xx

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Post #: 164
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 25/6/2009 2:22:34 PM   
Superunknown


Posts: 270
Joined: 17/6/2009
There's nudity in these forums? why didn't anyone tell me about this?

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I zink Deviation iz a genius. He iz only rivalled by mee in hiz geniusness. All zoze ozer people - George Clooney, Stanley Kubrick, Guillermo Del Toro, Michael Powell, Yasujiro Ozu - zey are all hackz. But mee and Deviation, ve are both geniuzez.

Uwe Boll. Or Pigeon Army pretending to be Boll.

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Post #: 165
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 27/6/2009 4:33:57 PM   
Beno


Posts: 8134
Joined: 15/2/2007
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beno


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I didn't lock it but having looked it out it is pretty foul. I'd suggest the reason is pretty clearly offensiveness.

But your best bet for a response isn't posting here but, generally, trying a mod to get a direct response.


You are kidding right ?? What offense ? We have nudity and swearing all over these forums , my thread had neither. If ever i use a swear word i always either mispell or use a #!* type to disguise but plenty dont . As for the nudity i'm all for it but im sure others are'nt . Clearly offensive ? Could you see a different picture from the one i posted ? I have had one PM from a Forumite who said he was next going to post the iconic pic. from 300 of Gerard Butler . I'm afraid someone has overreacted big time . It was going to be a fun thread , an excuse to post funny pics. and be silly ...... not any offense in a million miles .
I love you all xx


No PM from any Mod .... and i PMd 3 of em myself . Have had PMs from plenty of Forumites who thought it a good idea and who said they would have participated too .

_____________________________

"The one about the space hairdresser and the cowboy. He's got a tinfoil pal and a pedalbin. His Father's a robot and he's fucking fucked his Sister. Lego ... They're all made of fucking Lego!!"

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Post #: 166
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 27/6/2009 5:28:19 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54674
Joined: 1/10/2005
Try thinking of it another way - how unoffensive would you have found it if someone had posted a pic of a female relative of yours under the effective headline 'what a grunt'? Pretty foul, isn't it? And it was the reason for locking. But if you have a group of people who do find it amusing I'm sure Zoo or the like must have forums

Swearing (without going too far) is allowed on the forums so for most you don't need to $£$£ it out if you don't want to. Nudity isn't - rules as in the thread in here and in Musings, amongst others. If a Mod has seen it or been notified it will have been deleted. Avs have been for going to far in that direction.

The only PM I've seen was in the Empire_Mods inbox, so apologies there wasn't a prompt response from there as that mailbox is only checked when actions have been taken.

_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

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Post #: 167
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 4/7/2009 11:57:15 AM   
Scruffybobby

 

Posts: 4365
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: My House
quote:

ORIGINAL: JonathanMardukas

Why was jonty_agutter who started a thread http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2323689 looking for a small piece of advice on a scene for an assignment treated so unfairly. Even if it is Empire's policy to lock such threads I believe they would be better to send the thread starter a PM rather than demeaning him after 4 posts. Clearly as he was new to the site, he was unaware of what he was doing. I cannot see why this thread had to be locked anyway. He wasnt asking for a 10 page essay, merely a suggestion.

P.S - Still love the site and mag, this is just an observation.


quote:

He wasn't treated unfairly.  He was given a link to the guidelines in his thread and even though he was new, it doesn't mean that the guidelines don't apply to him.  Also, we can't make an exception on this otherwise we'll have to start doing so for everyone.

In addition, there is a thread about the guidelines which people are asked to read before they begin posting.


Have just been reading through this thread and the above made me think that perhaps the forum guidelines etc should be in a subforum on the front page or even in their own one. You currently have to click into the "Empire Online" forum and then the rules and guidelines are about 5 threads down. If they were a bit more prominently displayed then maybe incidents like the above (which do happen a lot) could be avoided. New users might find the rules a bit easy to miss at the mo.

edit: also (if there isn't one already - can't remember) how about a tickbox on registering that says you have read and understood the rules before you can post? The nobody can complain if their threads are deleted)

< Message edited by Scruffybobby -- 4/7/2009 12:03:52 PM >

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Post #: 168
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/8/2009 9:44:17 PM   
UTB


Posts: 9993
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Your Funny Uncle

quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB

Can we have a Blu Ray subforum in DVD Discussion please?


I think that is one of the most sensible and logical ideas in this thread. I was just discussing this with a fellow forumite who pointed me in the direction of this thread that had slipped under my radar. Luckily I'm not the only person who had thought of this which is a good sign. Having a 'Blu Ray' subforum in DVD Discussion seems a natural progression and will seperate the two formats making things a lot easier to find and in turn read.


it would also stop having to read through endless "what's the point in bluray?" posts that appear during discussions.

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Post #: 169
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/8/2009 10:30:39 PM   
richCie


Posts: 4028
Joined: 11/11/2006
From: Wells, England

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scruffybobby

quote:

ORIGINAL: JonathanMardukas

Why was jonty_agutter who started a thread http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=2323689 looking for a small piece of advice on a scene for an assignment treated so unfairly. Even if it is Empire's policy to lock such threads I believe they would be better to send the thread starter a PM rather than demeaning him after 4 posts. Clearly as he was new to the site, he was unaware of what he was doing. I cannot see why this thread had to be locked anyway. He wasnt asking for a 10 page essay, merely a suggestion.

P.S - Still love the site and mag, this is just an observation.


quote:

He wasn't treated unfairly.  He was given a link to the guidelines in his thread and even though he was new, it doesn't mean that the guidelines don't apply to him.  Also, we can't make an exception on this otherwise we'll have to start doing so for everyone.

In addition, there is a thread about the guidelines which people are asked to read before they begin posting.


Have just been reading through this thread and the above made me think that perhaps the forum guidelines etc should be in a subforum on the front page or even in their own one. You currently have to click into the "Empire Online" forum and then the rules and guidelines are about 5 threads down. If they were a bit more prominently displayed then maybe incidents like the above (which do happen a lot) could be avoided. New users might find the rules a bit easy to miss at the mo.

edit: also (if there isn't one already - can't remember) how about a tickbox on registering that says you have read and understood the rules before you can post? The nobody can complain if their threads are deleted)


don't you get an email when you sign up telling you all the rules?

that said i never read it...

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Post #: 170
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 6/8/2009 12:45:16 AM   
paul_ie86


Posts: 11422
Joined: 4/1/2007
From: Chelsea Hotel #2
Any of these suggestions been put in place?

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Post #: 171
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/11/2009 4:41:35 AM   
JoeyPottr


Posts: 2066
Joined: 10/2/2009
I will say one thing some people on this forum are way too touchy. It's hard to have a different opinion about something without certain members biting your head off so to speak, not mentioning any names here. Also why can't we help people with their film class or homework some time? Seriously, if the people here are truly movie buffs they could help someone out with their school once in a while. Filmmaking and movies are a collaborative process, and this IS a film forum people.

< Message edited by JoeyPottr -- 3/11/2009 4:44:08 AM >


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Post #: 172
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/11/2009 7:26:04 AM   
Pigeon Army


Posts: 14612
Joined: 29/1/2006
From: Pixar HQ, George Lucas' Office.
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoeyPottr

I will say one thing some people on this forum are way too touchy. It's hard to have a different opinion about something without certain members biting your head off so to speak, not mentioning any names here.


You mean me and Keys, don't you? God, I hope you mean me and Keys.

Look, Joey, it's not what you say that's riling people, it's how you say it. God knows we'd listen to you and treat you deadly seriously and have reasoned conversations with you if you talked to us in a rational, legible, reasonable manner. But you don't. You pull 'facts' that aren't out of your arse, you refuse to back your arguments up, you talk down to everyone (the NHS argument, athankyou), you contradict yourself regularly and you generally act like a bit of a cock. Jeez, the quote in my sig below came when no-one had provoked you and in a thread where everyone was being relatively chummy. Treat others how you yourself would like to be treated, Joey.

quote:

Also why can't we help people with their film class or homework some time? Seriously, if the people here are truly movie buffs they could help someone out with their school once in a while. Filmmaking and movies are a collaborative process, and this IS a film forum people.


Because a) we're not here to do peoples' work for them, we're here to chat about film and life and such, and b) because homework questions often leave very little room for discussion. Filmmakers are able to come here and get help on what to do in the filmmaking process - that's what Filmmaker's Workshop is for - but we're not here so you can bulk up your research project with frame-by-frame breakdowns of tense scenes in Hitchcock films or whatever.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
She's supposed to be 13! I'd want her to be very attractive though


quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army
Stop being mean to Deviation

No.

(in reply to JoeyPottr)
Post #: 173
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/11/2009 9:39:12 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54674
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoeyPottr

this IS a film forum people.


It is - not a handy homework helper. It does them no good to be handed answers and, on a more forum related note, the initial rule came into place because people were so fed up with lazy students who couldn't be bothered doing their own work.

If they come in and start a conversation - giving their opinions instead of being spoon fed - the thread remains open. As you'll know having read the rule - and one recent thread starter got exactly that. He started a discussion - gave his views, the whys and wherefores. That overrided the homework lock.

For the rest? If you have a problem with posters, Joey, please use the report button. It doesn't need a review because there is already a process in place to make complaints. Although people disagreeing with you is part and parcel of the net - the only relevant factors is if they breach the rules in doing so.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to JoeyPottr)
Post #: 174
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 3/11/2009 2:14:20 PM   
tftrman


Posts: 3192
Joined: 15/11/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pigeon Army

You pull 'facts' that aren't out of your arse


Where does she pull them from then?

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Post #: 175
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 7/11/2009 11:18:10 AM   
UTB


Posts: 9993
Joined: 30/9/2005
Can we have a Blu Ray subforum in DVD Discussion please?






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Post #: 176
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 28/1/2010 1:56:12 AM   
conradthebarbarian2

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 18/3/2009
So I was on Listverse, a list site (obvs.), and they had a top twenty science fiction movies of the decade. It was absolutely terrible and all the comments were beyond bogus, not a single person had anything even remotely worth saying. Lots of Avatar sucks. And I just wanted to say thank you to empireonline for not being a totally asshole shitfest. The people on here are actual movie nerds who know a good film from a bad film and can argue appropriately about the difference.

Thank You
that is all.

(in reply to sharkboy)
Post #: 177
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 13/2/2010 8:09:08 PM   
zaymon


Posts: 33
Joined: 29/1/2010
From: Uppsala
Are there any moderators/admins around on this forum that knows anything about the "Done in 60 seconds" competition?

If so it'd be cool if you could head over to the Done in 60 seconds confusion thread below :) Thanks!

(in reply to conradthebarbarian2)
Post #: 178
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 17/2/2010 7:20:25 PM   
Ell


Posts: 1951
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Birmingham
quote:

ORIGINAL: UTB

Can we have a Blu Ray subforum in DVD Discussion please?



What he said.


_____________________________

"I'D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR!!!"

(in reply to UTB)
Post #: 179
RE: Review of the EMPIRE Forums - your thoughts welcome! - 17/2/2010 7:55:44 PM   
UTB


Posts: 9993
Joined: 30/9/2005
It's been 8 months since I originally asked with no real explanations as to why not so don't get your hopes up.

(in reply to Ell)
Post #: 180
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