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RE: The Black Bond Question

 
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RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 12:26:03 AM   
Olaf


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Ah yes - I didn't see it when I was posting, my bad. But just one more question [/columbo]:

quote:

What other reason is there cast Bond as black, other than the best actor for the job being black?




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Post #: 241
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 12:26:33 AM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

but nobody's talking of making Bond black for the sake of being black....my point is at one point...if you can   changehis environment, his politics, his car, clothes, physical image...then why the fuck cant you make him  black?????   is it so integral to the story? cannot you have a conservative, god and country black man serving his country as a secrent agent? of course you can...


Yeah but his enviorement has stayed basically the same for 50 years, albeit the goalposts have moved slightly. He's still after anyone who's bad and not British though. His politics have basically stayed the same for 50 years. His car might be a different brand but the message is always the same. His clothes might vary slightly with fashion but all come down the same thing. Tux's, smart suits, shirts etc. Even his physical image is basically the same - tallish bloke with dark hair (with one exception) who can handle himself if it gets a bit tasty.

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Post #: 242
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 8:48:34 AM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

Ah yes - I didn't see it when I was posting, my bad. But just one more question [/columbo]:

quote:

What other reason is there cast Bond as black, other than the best actor for the job being black?


of course the best 'black' actor ought to get the job.

a black actor might be used to prove that colour really doesn't matter to the 'character' of Bond.



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Post #: 243
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 8:50:15 AM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

but nobody's talking of making Bond black for the sake of being black....my point is at one point...if you can   changehis environment, his politics, his car, clothes, physical image...then why the fuck cant you make him  black?????   is it so integral to the story? cannot you have a conservative, god and country black man serving his country as a secrent agent? of course you can...


Yeah but his enviorement has stayed basically the same for 50 years, albeit the goalposts have moved slightly. He's still after anyone who's bad and not British though. His politics have basically stayed the same for 50 years. His car might be a different brand but the message is always the same. His clothes might vary slightly with fashion but all come down the same thing. Tux's, smart suits, shirts etc. Even his physical image is basically the same - tallish bloke with dark hair (with one exception) who can handle himself if it gets a bit tasty.


i agree with everything you say and list above. i still dont why a black man cannot have any of what you list. we know there are black men who can handle themselves. ALi, Tyson etc etc

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Post #: 244
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 8:57:07 AM   
Snake-Eyes


Posts: 9970
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: ZONE 2
quote:

ORIGINAL: will1000

For the record, Blade was originally a white character (in the comics and Spiderman Cartoons) but seeing as he wasn't really all that established in the eyes of the masses there was no problem re-inventing him as a black character for the films.



where the f**k did you get this? BLADE was ALWAYS a black character ever since his first appearance in Marvel Comics' TOMB OF DRACULA series!

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Post #: 245
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 9:23:48 AM   
Snake-Eyes


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and just for the record, Snake-Eyes is NOT a Bond Fan; I know a certain Action Hero who ain't white and could beat EVERY Bond to a pasty mess....
 


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Post #: 246
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 10:51:14 AM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

The President is a bunch of different people, not one person, a set character from a series of books written 50 years ago. The two are incomparable, and by comparing the two, you've basically said everything I said you said. Wasn't so hard was it?


how is the President a bunch of different people and not one person?

are you saying that Barack Obama is not one person? Is he a bunch of people?

I think the 'role' of PResident is not to far removed from Bond. IT is a character which has been around far longer than Bond. He has a basic premise, character, cultural heritage loyal to country etc etc...as we have seen colour has no bearing on this 'role'.

many people 'play' the role of President as they do Bond. Many have an opinion about who ought to 'play' President as they do about Bond. Many disagree with the current president as they do about Bond...

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Post #: 247
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 11:00:57 AM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6423
Joined: 20/6/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

The President is a bunch of different people, not one person, a set character from a series of books written 50 years ago. The two are incomparable, and by comparing the two, you've basically said everything I said you said. Wasn't so hard was it?


how is the President a bunch of different people and not one person?

are you saying that Barack Obama is not one person? Is he a bunch of people?

I think the 'role' of PResident is not to far removed from Bond. IT is a character which has been around far longer than Bond. He has a basic premise, character, cultural heritage loyal to country etc etc...as we have seen colour has no bearing on this 'role'.

many people 'play' the role of President as they do Bond. Many have an opinion about who ought to 'play' President as they do about Bond. Many disagree with the current president as they do about Bond...


Ok...but that's just when the role of President is vague and the writers are making someone up. It would be different if they were portraying a partiular president. You would not have a white guy play Barrack Obama in a film would you?
People argue Bonds character has already been defined as a white dude. So people believe he should be portrayed as such.

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Post #: 248
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 12:38:08 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

The President is a bunch of different people, not one person, a set character from a series of books written 50 years ago. The two are incomparable, and by comparing the two, you've basically said everything I said you said. Wasn't so hard was it?


how is the President a bunch of different people and not one person?

are you saying that Barack Obama is not one person? Is he a bunch of people?

I think the 'role' of PResident is not to far removed from Bond. IT is a character which has been around far longer than Bond. He has a basic premise, character, cultural heritage loyal to country etc etc...as we have seen colour has no bearing on this 'role'.

many people 'play' the role of President as they do Bond. Many have an opinion about who ought to 'play' President as they do about Bond. Many disagree with the current president as they do about Bond...


Ok...but that's just when the role of President is vague and the writers are making someone up. It would be different if they were portraying a partiular president. You would not have a white guy play Barrack Obama in a film would you?
People argue Bonds character has already been defined as a white dude. So people believe he should be portrayed as such.



can you quote me the exact part of Fleming's book which explicitly states that Bond is white?

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Post #: 249
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 3:49:23 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

The President is a bunch of different people, not one person, a set character from a series of books written 50 years ago. The two are incomparable, and by comparing the two, you've basically said everything I said you said. Wasn't so hard was it?


how is the President a bunch of different people and not one person?

are you saying that Barack Obama is not one person? Is he a bunch of people?

I think the 'role' of PResident is not to far removed from Bond. IT is a character which has been around far longer than Bond. He has a basic premise, character, cultural heritage loyal to country etc etc...as we have seen colour has no bearing on this 'role'.

many people 'play' the role of President as they do Bond. Many have an opinion about who ought to 'play' President as they do about Bond. Many disagree with the current president as they do about Bond...


Ok...but that's just when the role of President is vague and the writers are making someone up. It would be different if they were portraying a partiular president. You would not have a white guy play Barrack Obama in a film would you?
People argue Bonds character has already been defined as a white dude. So people believe he should be portrayed as such.



can you quote me the exact part of Fleming's book which explicitly states that Bond is white?


How many blue-eyed children of Scottish-Swiss parents, who look like Hoagy Carmichael, do you know of that aren't white? Also, the racial attitudes displayed in Live and Let Die confirm that Bond is anything but black. Unless you think that in the 1950s Ian Fleming thought that not only would a black secret agent be so accepted by the public that he'd create him as a lead character, but that he'd also put him in a book that shows more than a little casual racism including a chapter with the title 'Nigger Heaven'?

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Post #: 250
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:02:02 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
what's your point?

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Post #: 251
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:09:00 PM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6423
Joined: 20/6/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy
can you quote me the exact part of Fleming's book which explicitly states that Bond is white?


No ... for various reasons.  This is from wikipedia though;  

quote:

James Bond's parents are Andrew Bond, a Scotsman, and Monique Delacroix, from Canton de Vaud, Switzerland. Their nationalities were established in On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Fleming emphasised Bond's Scottish heritage in admiration of Sean Connery's cinematic portrayal, whereas Bond's mother is named after a Swiss fiancée of Fleming's


&

quote:

Most researchers agree that James Bond is a romanticised version of Ian Fleming, himself a jet-setting womanizer. Both Fleming and Bond attended the same schools, preferred the same foods (scrambled eggs, and coffee), maintained the same habits (drinking, smoking, wearing short-sleeve shirts{?}), shared the same notions of the perfect woman in looks and style, and had similar naval career paths (both rising to the rank of naval Commander). They also shared similar height, hairstyle, and eye colour


&

quote:




Ian Fleming's image of James Bond; commissioned to aid the Daily Express comic strip artists


< Message edited by the anomaly -- 16/5/2009 4:10:35 PM >

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Post #: 252
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:11:37 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.

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Post #: 253
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:13:00 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly


quote:




Ian Fleming's image of James Bond; commissioned to aid the Daily Express comic strip artists



Am I the only one who thinks he looks a little like Peter Cushing there?

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Post #: 254
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:16:45 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

No ... for various reasons.  This is from wikipedia though;  

quote:

James Bond's parents are Andrew Bond, a Scotsman, and Monique Delacroix, from Canton de Vaud, Switzerland. Their nationalities were established in On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Fleming emphasised Bond's Scottish heritage in admiration of Sean Connery's cinematic portrayal, whereas Bond's mother is named after a Swiss fiancée of Fleming's


&

quote:

Most researchers agree that James Bond is a romanticised version of Ian Fleming, himself a jet-setting womanizer. Both Fleming and Bond attended the same schools, preferred the same foods (scrambled eggs, and coffee), maintained the same habits (drinking, smoking, wearing short-sleeve shirts{?}), shared the same notions of the perfect woman in looks and style, and had similar naval career paths (both rising to the rank of naval Commander). They also shared similar height, hairstyle, and eye colour


&

quote:




Ian Fleming's image of James Bond; commissioned to aid the Daily Express comic strip artists



so are you saying that there are no black Scotsmen or no black Swiss women?

which researchers are you referring to?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 16/5/2009 4:20:17 PM >

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Post #: 255
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:18:04 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 16/5/2009 4:19:13 PM >

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Post #: 256
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:21:31 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...


And I never ever said that you've been proved wrong over and over on this thread so you're now pointlessly trying to make people jump through hoops while you continue to troll the thread. Never said that. Not once.

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Post #: 257
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:24:04 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...


And I never ever said that you've been proved wrong over and over on this thread so you're now pointlessly trying to make people jump through hoops while you continue to troll the thread. Never said that. Not once.


proved wrong about what and by whom?

how am i trolling the thread?

how am i making anyone do anything they dont want to do?

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Post #: 258
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:27:30 PM   
the anomaly


Posts: 6423
Joined: 20/6/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...


Fair enough. I won't waste my time posting in this thread then.

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Post #: 259
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:28:37 PM   
rawlinson

 

Posts: 45002
Joined: 13/6/2008
From: Timbuktu. Chinese or Fictional.
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...


And I never ever said that you've been proved wrong over and over on this thread so you're now pointlessly trying to make people jump through hoops while you continue to troll the thread. Never said that. Not once.


proved wrong about what and by whom?

how am i trolling the thread?

how am i making anyone do anything they dont want to do?


Can you show me where I actually said you were trolling the thread or that you've been proved wrong? Because if you actually quote my post you'll find this

quote:

  And I never ever said that you've been proved wrong over and over on this thread so you're now pointlessly trying to make people jump through hoops while you continue to troll the thread.


I'm just telling you I never said that. Those words may be in my post, but I've just used them in a way to let you know that I have never accused you of being a troll. You see?

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Post #: 260
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:31:30 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
Who said I said you said I was trolling this thread?

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Post #: 261
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:35:07 PM   
DressyCrazybull

 

Posts: 26
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Here here since reading this thread i had his face in my mind and was about to use imdb to get it. He was also very cool in Way of the Gun and ruthless inEquilibrium.

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Post #: 262
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 4:38:33 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: the anomaly

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

You asked where it was explicitly stated Bond was white, I gave you a physical description of Bond, his heritage, the era he was created in, and an example of the attitudes displayed towards black characters in one of the novels. Bond even says something along the lines of black people being "law-abiding chaps except when they drink too much." I really couldn't care less what colour Bond is in the films, but to try and argue he's anything other than white in the novels is really really stretching things.


i never, ever said or even tried to say Bond was black or even envisioned by FLeming as black.

i like stretching things. that way you see how far things can go...


Fair enough. I won't waste my time posting in this thread then.


spoilsport...

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Post #: 263
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 7:17:15 PM   
max314


Posts: 2742
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London


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Post #: 264
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 7:32:48 PM   
max314


Posts: 2742
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London


If ugly blond man can play Bond, I don't see any reason black guy can't do it.

Bond's race has never been intrinsic to the nature of his character.


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Post #: 265
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 7:34:42 PM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
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a black bond would be a gimmick nothing more. Wouldn't it be better to create an original black action hero rather than give an existing white one an ethnic makeover?

I've just had an idea, let's remake Shaft but give Russell Crowe the lead role!!

< Message edited by Monkeyshaver -- 16/5/2009 7:36:45 PM >


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Post #: 266
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 7:49:08 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyshaver

a black bond would be a gimmick nothing more. Wouldn't it be better to create an original black action hero rather than give an existing white one an ethnic makeover?

I've just had an idea, let's remake Shaft but give Russell Crowe the lead role!!


i'm afraid that wouldn't work....

You'd have to get someone like Mark WHalberg to really pull that off...

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Post #: 267
RE: The Black Bond Question - 16/5/2009 8:22:54 PM   
max314


Posts: 2742
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyshaver

a black bond would be a gimmick nothing more. Wouldn't it be better to create an original black action hero rather than give an existing white one an ethnic makeover?


I'm not saying it SHOULD be done.  I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with it if it IS done.

quote:

I've just had an idea, let's remake Shaft but give Russell Crowe the lead role!!


Apples and oranges.

Shaft's M.O. and dialect is distinctly based in the urban black subculture.

Conversely, there is nothing about Bond's M.O. and dialect that is distinctly white.  Certainly not in today's world.


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Laying the 314 on your candy ass.

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Post #: 268
RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/5/2009 4:04:48 PM   
Biggus


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Joined: 2/10/2005
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Why don't we just get a black bloke with blonde hair to play Bond then everybody will be happy.



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Post #: 269
RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/5/2009 4:55:13 PM   
will1000

 

Posts: 1793
Joined: 8/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: max314

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyshaver

a black bond would be a gimmick nothing more. Wouldn't it be better to create an original black action hero rather than give an existing white one an ethnic makeover?


I'm not saying it SHOULD be done.  I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with it if it IS done.

quote:

I've just had an idea, let's remake Shaft but give Russell Crowe the lead role!!


Apples and oranges.

Shaft's M.O. and dialect is distinctly based in the urban black subculture.

Conversely, there is nothing about Bond's M.O. and dialect that is distinctly white.  Certainly not in today's world.




By that reckoning then you could have a 'wigger' Shaft! Thank god for Vanilla Ice and Eminem for making it more acceptable for white guys to be black!

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Post #: 270
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