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RE: The Black Bond Question

 
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RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:33:32 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

ORIGINAL: CORLEONE

If someone wants to make a secret agent film with any race/creed as the lead, then that's great and I'll look forward to it. But Bond is a white Brit. Leave the fuck alone.
Exactly. If they make a Bond film with a black person in the lead, I quit. And I'm the opposite of racist.  Can you really compare changing the skin colour of a recurring character who almost always has a new actor portrating him to changing the skin colour of perhaps the most famous film character ever?
It's not like there are no white actors to choose from



in a nutshell and with all due respect..what the fuck has colour to do with character?

(in reply to Miles Messervy 007)
Post #: 181
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:36:58 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

ORIGINAL: CORLEONE

If someone wants to make a secret agent film with any race/creed as the lead, then that's great and I'll look forward to it. But Bond is a white Brit. Leave the fuck alone.
Exactly. If they make a Bond film with a black person in the lead, I quit. And I'm the opposite of racist.  Can you really compare changing the skin colour of a recurring character who almost always has a new actor portrating him to changing the skin colour of perhaps the most famous film character ever?
It's not like there are no white actors to choose from



in a nutshell and with all due respect..what the fuck has colour to do with character?


That's actually a really interesting question, and with regards to Bond, I think particularly important. He's a High-Society, queen and country, british empire character. If you think of when he dates from, and the attitudes of the time and so forth, I don't think there's any way he could be anything but a White Man. I think it is an important part of his character and who he is, and if he was black, growing up through the same era, he'd be different he'd have different views on things and so on. Because Bond comes from a less enlightened time.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 182
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:42:45 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb



That's actually a really interesting question, and with regards to Bond, I think particularly important. He's a High-Society, queen and country, british empire character. If you think of when he dates from, and the attitudes of the time and so forth, I don't think there's any way he could be anything but a White Man. I think it is an important part of his character and who he is, and if he was black, growing up through the same era, he'd be different he'd have different views on things and so on. Because Bond comes from a less enlightened time.



It is already a given that Bond is now no longer set during the Cold War. He is of 'our times'.

what 'things' do you think the black Bond would have a different view on?

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 183
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:43:32 PM   
barkers101


Posts: 2507
Joined: 19/2/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: CORLEONE

What next, a white Blade?


Doesn't work the other way, that's racist...


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Post #: 184
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:46:43 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
quote:

He is of 'our times'.
The appeal of Bond as character is that he is slightly ever conservative.

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Post #: 185
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:47:58 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

He is of 'our times'.
The appeal of Bond as character is that he is slightly ever conservative.


are you saying that to be 'conservative' you cannot be black?

(in reply to Miles Messervy 007)
Post #: 186
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 8:52:13 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb



That's actually a really interesting question, and with regards to Bond, I think particularly important. He's a High-Society, queen and country, british empire character. If you think of when he dates from, and the attitudes of the time and so forth, I don't think there's any way he could be anything but a White Man. I think it is an important part of his character and who he is, and if he was black, growing up through the same era, he'd be different he'd have different views on things and so on. Because Bond comes from a less enlightened time.



It is already a given that Bond is now no longer set during the Cold War. He is of 'our times'.

what 'things' do you think the black Bond would have a different view on?



The Bond films aren't set in the Cold War no, but the character has his roots in the post WW2 era. Surely in that less enlightened time any black person and any white person experiencing the same things (The British Empire and its history of slave trading, the rise of Black America, Rivers of Blood, Martin Luther King etc) would have a differing viewpoint on the entire era?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 187
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:02:53 PM   
Miles Messervy 007


Posts: 6884
Joined: 11/2/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

He is of 'our times'.
The appeal of Bond as character is that he is slightly ever conservative.


are you saying that to be 'conservative' you cannot be black?
No, but surely making him black would be the opposite of conservative?


_____________________________

quote:

jamesbondguy:
Miles is clearly the finest film theorist of his generation

quote:

Deviation:
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(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 188
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:06:28 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miles Messervy 007

quote:

He is of 'our times'.
The appeal of Bond as character is that he is slightly ever conservative.


are you saying that to be 'conservative' you cannot be black?
No, but surely making him black would be the opposite of conservative?



you said 'Bond is conservative'. how does 'making him black' make him the opposite of being conservative?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 9:44:23 PM >

(in reply to Miles Messervy 007)
Post #: 189
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:07:44 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb



That's actually a really interesting question, and with regards to Bond, I think particularly important. He's a High-Society, queen and country, british empire character. If you think of when he dates from, and the attitudes of the time and so forth, I don't think there's any way he could be anything but a White Man. I think it is an important part of his character and who he is, and if he was black, growing up through the same era, he'd be different he'd have different views on things and so on. Because Bond comes from a less enlightened time.



It is already a given that Bond is now no longer set during the Cold War. He is of 'our times'.

what 'things' do you think the black Bond would have a different view on?



The Bond films aren't set in the Cold War no, but the character has his roots in the post WW2 era. Surely in that less enlightened time any black person and any white person experiencing the same things (The British Empire and its history of slave trading, the rise of Black America, Rivers of Blood, Martin Luther King etc) would have a differing viewpoint on the entire era?


how does Daniel Craig's interpretation of Bond have his roots in WW2?

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 190
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:09:07 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb



That's actually a really interesting question, and with regards to Bond, I think particularly important. He's a High-Society, queen and country, british empire character. If you think of when he dates from, and the attitudes of the time and so forth, I don't think there's any way he could be anything but a White Man. I think it is an important part of his character and who he is, and if he was black, growing up through the same era, he'd be different he'd have different views on things and so on. Because Bond comes from a less enlightened time.



It is already a given that Bond is now no longer set during the Cold War. He is of 'our times'.

what 'things' do you think the black Bond would have a different view on?



The Bond films aren't set in the Cold War no, but the character has his roots in the post WW2 era. Surely in that less enlightened time any black person and any white person experiencing the same things (The British Empire and its history of slave trading, the rise of Black America, Rivers of Blood, Martin Luther King etc) would have a differing viewpoint on the entire era?


how does Daniel Craig's interpretation of Bond have his roots in WW2?


But we aren't talking about Daniel Craig are we? We're talking about James Bond, and the idea of making him black.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 191
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:12:26 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


But we aren't talking about Daniel Craig are we? We're talking about James Bond, and the idea of making him black.


so who is James Bond? Is he not Daniel Craig now? and if hes not Daniel Craig then why cant he be black?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 9:13:14 PM >

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 192
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:17:27 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


But we aren't talking about Daniel Craig are we? We're talking about James Bond, and the idea of making him black.


so who is James Bond? Is he not Daniel Craig now? and if hes not Daniel Craig then why cant he be black?


Daniel Craig is portraying James Bond at the moment yes. But he's portraying a character with certain roots and things in a time gone by. Its all over Casino Royale, that stuff about the orphan raised by the government to be loyal to queen and country (see also Goldeneye).

For better or worse, I think it'd be disrespectful to the source novels to make Bond black, which is why it won't happen. Anyone who's read Live and Let Die knows that Flemming didn't exactly have an enlightened viewpoint.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 193
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:21:42 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

Daniel Craig is portraying James Bond at the moment yes. But he's portraying a character with certain roots and things in a time gone by. Its all over Casino Royale, that stuff about the orphan raised by the government to be loyal to queen and country (see also Goldeneye).

For better or worse, I think it'd be disrespectful to the source novels to make Bond black, which is why it won't happen. Anyone who's read Live and Let Die knows that Flemming didn't exactly have an enlightened viewpoint.


are you saying that a black man cannot be loyal to queen and country?

why would it be disrespectful for Bond to be black, yet not disrespectful to completely alter Fleming's books as has been done countless times?

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 194
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:31:37 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home
No, I'm obviously not saying that at all.

It'd be disrespectful to change the central premise of the character. You might as well make him French, no? The stories have been changed 1000s of times, but the basic premise of the character remains.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 195
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:33:36 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

No, I'm obviously not saying that at all.

It'd be disrespectful to change the central premise of the character. You might as well make him French, no? The stories have been changed 1000s of times, but the basic premise of the character remains.



this thread is not about nationality. it is about being black. are you saying to be black is to be French?

we have already established that you dont have to be white to be conservative or to love queen and country...

i repeat. what does being black have to do with character? cannot Bond be the same character whether he is black or white?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 9:40:22 PM >

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 196
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:43:51 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10887
Joined: 30/9/2005
Er no, because then he'd be black.

What race you are is part of who you are.

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Post #: 197
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:55:24 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Er no, because then he'd be black.

What race you are is part of who you are.


who 'are' we and what 'part' are you referring to?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 9:58:24 PM >

(in reply to directorscut)
Post #: 198
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:57:55 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10887
Joined: 30/9/2005
Your heritage, your culture, your life experience.  Little stuff like that.

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Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

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Post #: 199
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 9:59:35 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Your heritage, your culture, your life experience.  Little stuff like that.


so are you saying that if Bond was black he could not have 'little stuff' like culture, life experience or heritage?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 10:05:09 PM >

(in reply to directorscut)
Post #: 200
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:02:54 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Your heritage, your culture, your life experience.  Little stuff like that.


so are you saying that for Bond to be black he cannot have 'little stuff' like culture, life experience or heritage?



No he's saying all those things would be different for someone who is black. Are you being difficult for the sake of it?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 201
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:06:26 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Your heritage, your culture, your life experience.  Little stuff like that.


so are you saying that for Bond to be black he cannot have 'little stuff' like culture, life experience or heritage?



No he's saying all those things would be different for someone who is black. Are you being difficult for the sake of it?


how does being black make these things 'different'?

how does my not agreeing with you make me 'difficult'?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 10:07:27 PM >

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 202
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:15:29 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Your heritage, your culture, your life experience.  Little stuff like that.


so are you saying that for Bond to be black he cannot have 'little stuff' like culture, life experience or heritage?



No he's saying all those things would be different for someone who is black. Are you being difficult for the sake of it?


how does being black make these things 'different'?

how does my not agreeing with you make me 'difficult'?


You saying that a black person doesn't have different cultural touchstones than a white person? Different heritage?

Its not the disagreing, I'm happy for you to do that, but the way you're disagreeing (i.e not putting forward a point of view, and merely just twisting mine (Or DCs) into an obscure way) that's difficult.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 203
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:22:44 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


You saying that a black person doesn't have different cultural touchstones than a white person? Different heritage?

Its not the disagreing, I'm happy for you to do that, but the way you're disagreeing (i.e not putting forward a point of view, and merely just twisting mine (Or DCs) into an obscure way) that's difficult.



i never said any such thing about black people having different cultural touchstones or heritage and i encourage you wholeheartedly to prove otherwise.

nor did i 'twist' anything. i merely repeated what you already said albeit more specifically. if you dont like that perhaps you ought to think more deeply about what you are saying...

all i am saying is that there is no reason Bond can't be black. it is you and DC who say otherwise... i''m sure they said that about the president of the USA at one point...

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 10:48:03 PM >

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 204
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:47:55 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24508
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


You saying that a black person doesn't have different cultural touchstones than a white person? Different heritage?

Its not the disagreing, I'm happy for you to do that, but the way you're disagreeing (i.e not putting forward a point of view, and merely just twisting mine (Or DCs) into an obscure way) that's difficult.



i never said any such thing about black people having different cultural touchstones.

nor did i 'twist' anything. i merely repeated what you already said albeit more specifically. if you dont like that perhaps you ought to think more deeply about what you are saying...

all i am saying is that there is no reason Bond can't be black. it is you and DC who say otherwise... i''m sure they said that about the president of the USA at one point...


I said you might as well make him French (making a point about Bond's heritage) and you said are you saying to be black is to be French. Thats's factious at best.

Not sure what the President has to do with anything. I was pretty pleased that the world became Colour blind enough to elect a president who is Black. Its a complete Straw Man argument to compare that with James Bond, who is a specific character, not a position of office.

_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 205
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:57:03 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

No, I'm obviously not saying that at all.

It'd be disrespectful to change the central premise of the character. You might as well make him French, no? The stories have been changed 1000s of times, but the basic premise of the character remains.



i never 'said' anything of the sort. i 'asked' if that was what you were saying.

how does making Bond black change the central premise of the character?

how would this be disrespectful?

are you saying that Obama is NOT a specific character even though he is real and Bond is fictional?

< Message edited by dhowdy -- 15/5/2009 11:12:08 PM >

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 206
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:58:19 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10887
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy
i''m sure they said that about the president of the USA at one point...


So what you're saying is that Barack Obama is the same character as George Bush?

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Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 207
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 10:58:52 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy
i''m sure they said that about the president of the USA at one point...


So what you're saying is that Barack Obama is the same character as George Bush?


how did i say this?

(in reply to directorscut)
Post #: 208
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 11:00:58 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10887
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

No, I'm obviously not saying that at all.

It'd be disrespectful to change the central premise of the character. You might as well make him French, no? The stories have been changed 1000s of times, but the basic premise of the character remains.



how does making Bond black change the central premise of the character?

how would this be disrespectful?



Characters are more than a "central premise".  If they weren't we wouldn't give them backstories, character traits or personalities.

_____________________________



Member of the TMNT 1000 Club.

(in reply to dhowdy)
Post #: 209
RE: The Black Bond Question - 15/5/2009 11:08:19 PM   
dhowdy

 

Posts: 967
Joined: 29/8/2008
From: London
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhowdy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

No, I'm obviously not saying that at all.

It'd be disrespectful to change the central premise of the character. You might as well make him French, no? The stories have been changed 1000s of times, but the basic premise of the character remains.



how does making Bond black change the central premise of the character?

how would this be disrespectful?



Characters are more than a "central premise".  If they weren't we wouldn't give them backstories, character traits or personalities.


which characters are you referring to?

who is giving them backstories, traits and personalities?

(in reply to directorscut)
Post #: 210
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