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RE: The Black Bond Question

 
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RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:19:47 PM   
kasm

 

Posts: 341
Joined: 18/4/2006
Kamara would be "unbelieveable" in the role.


Idris Elba all the way tho' as another 00 in spinoff movies...

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Post #: 31
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:30:40 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24507
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home
Could you have a cinematic black Superman as well?

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Post #: 32
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:34:55 PM   
Rotary Ten


Posts: 922
Joined: 31/10/2005
To repeat what's been said, it would be a gimmick, and quite a pointless one. If you want to explore the issues of a black Bond, I say that's fine, and interesting, Bond traditionally representing the British establishment, a black Bond being a potentially good post-colonial/early 21st Century look at the character, but I'd prefer that someone did a film like that outside the Bond series. People got annoyed and protested just because Daniel Craig has blond hair. I don't want to imagine the reaction to a black actor taking over the role.

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Post #: 33
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:35:53 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

Could you have a cinematic black Superman as well?


Sure. Why not? Would even give him a bit of character.

Much like Captain America, a superhero living through racially charged times could potentially make for an interesting storyline - and no, Hancock doesn't count.


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Post #: 34
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:37:52 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rotary Ten

To repeat what's been said, it would be a gimmick, and quite a pointless one. If you want to explore the issues of a black Bond, I say that's fine, and interesting, Bond traditionally representing the British establishment, a black Bond being a potentially good post-colonial/early 21st Century look at the character, but I'd prefer that someone did a film like that outside the Bond series. People got annoyed and protested just because Daniel Craig has blond hair. I don't want to imagine the reaction to a black actor taking over the role.


But how would it be a gimmick? If Bond is still a man who fights for Queen and country then what matter the colour of his skin?

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It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 35
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 4:57:48 PM   
Rotary Ten


Posts: 922
Joined: 31/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rotary Ten

To repeat what's been said, it would be a gimmick, and quite a pointless one. If you want to explore the issues of a black Bond, I say that's fine, and interesting, Bond traditionally representing the British establishment, a black Bond being a potentially good post-colonial/early 21st Century look at the character, but I'd prefer that someone did a film like that outside the Bond series. People got annoyed and protested just because Daniel Craig has blond hair. I don't want to imagine the reaction to a black actor taking over the role.


But how would it be a gimmick? If Bond is still a man who fights for Queen and country then what matter the colour of his skin?


I think it would be a gimmick because I feel they'd be casting a black actor just for the sake of it. It comes down to the fact that even if they're not adapting a Bond novel, they're still adapting the character, and Bond is a white man. With good casting decisions they would still be good films, but it wouldn't be Fleming's Bond. I think you can change hair colour, accent, and tweak his background, but I think they have to keep some variant on what Fleming wrote for the character because a) there isn't anything wrong with him being white, and b) he's iconic.  

Now, I know you can argue that Fleming didn't write a female M, but I'd argue that M isn't anything like as identifiable a character as Bond is. But really, I just don't see any need whatsoever for Bond to be played by a black actor. I wouldn't have a problem with it, the films wouldn't be ruined, I just don't see the need to depart unnecessarily from Fleming's character.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 36
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 5:04:28 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rotary Ten

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rotary Ten

To repeat what's been said, it would be a gimmick, and quite a pointless one. If you want to explore the issues of a black Bond, I say that's fine, and interesting, Bond traditionally representing the British establishment, a black Bond being a potentially good post-colonial/early 21st Century look at the character, but I'd prefer that someone did a film like that outside the Bond series. People got annoyed and protested just because Daniel Craig has blond hair. I don't want to imagine the reaction to a black actor taking over the role.


But how would it be a gimmick? If Bond is still a man who fights for Queen and country then what matter the colour of his skin?


I think it would be a gimmick because I feel they'd be casting a black actor just for the sake of it. It comes down to the fact that even if they're not adapting a Bond novel, they're still adapting the character, and Bond is a white man. With good casting decisions they would still be good films, but it wouldn't be Fleming's Bond. I think you can change hair colour, accent, and tweak his background, but I think they have to keep some variant on what Fleming wrote for the character because a) there isn't anything wrong with him being white, and b) he's iconic.  

Now, I know you can argue that Fleming didn't write a female M, but I'd argue that M isn't anything like as identifiable a character as Bond is. But really, I just don't see any need whatsoever for Bond to be played by a black actor. I wouldn't have a problem with it, the films wouldn't be ruined, I just don't see the need to depart unnecessarily from Fleming's character.


I would argue that one of the great things about Bond is that as a character he is pretty much a blank canvass. There only ever tend to be vauge details about his background (this is the film Bond I am talking about) which allows different interpetations.

Any actor that can bring something to the table should be considered regardless of their background. I would agree if you were making a Bond set in the 1950s for the sake of realism but the movies are always set in the period when they were filmed.


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Post #: 37
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 5:57:05 PM   
will1000


Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/10/2005
Okay, let's ignore the whole potential race issue and focus on the fact that Bond as a character is and has been white for over 40 years...don't you think that all of sudden re-inventing him as a black guy would be a total 'what the fuck?!' moment to the already established audience? I honestly think even the black community would disagree with the whole black Bond issue and instead prefer their own character that isn't a racial stereotype homeboy-from-da-hood type like xXx.

This whole argument seems like a 'we'll do it because we can' thing. If that's the case, fuck it why not have Bond portrayed by an Inuit or a Mayan?! They're none white too!

If Hilary Clinton had won would we be talking about making a female Bond?
"The name's Bond, Jane Bond. I'll have a white wine spritzer, stirred not shaken."

< Message edited by will1000 -- 24/11/2008 6:09:02 PM >


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Post #: 38
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 5:58:32 PM   
Rotary Ten


Posts: 922
Joined: 31/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I would argue that one of the great things about Bond is that as a character he is pretty much a blank canvass. There only ever tend to be vauge details about his background (this is the film Bond I am talking about) which allows different interpetations.

Any actor that can bring something to the table should be considered regardless of their background. I would agree if you were making a Bond set in the 1950s for the sake of realism but the movies are always set in the period when they were filmed.



I know exactly what you mean about Bond being a blank canvas. That's how every actor to play him in the series has played it differently, yet still been "James Bond". I agree entirely that you *could* have a black James Bond on this basis. As you say, the films always have a modern setting, and I don't think in the real world in 2008 that a black Bond would be any less quintessentially British than a white Bond. But why not a British-Indian Bond, or a British-Chinese Bond etc? We've had a Scottish Bond, three English Bonds (I assume Lazenby's 007 is supposed to be English rather than an Aussie), a Welsh Bond and an Irish Bond, but I think that's about as far as it should go. A black actor would still be quintessentially British as I say, but I think you have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise after a while the screen character of Bond will lose all connection with the novels and it won't be "Ian Fleming's James Bond" anymore.

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Post #: 39
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 6:03:26 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: will1000

Okay, let's ignore the whole potential race issue and focus on the fact that Bond as a character is and has been white for over 40 years...don't you think that all of sudden re-inventing him as a black guy would be a total 'what the fuck?!' moment to the already established audience? I honestly think even the black community would disagree with the whole black Bond issue and instead prefer their own character that isn't a racial stereotype homeboy-from-da-hood type like xXx.

This whole argument seems like a 'we'll do it because we can' thing. If that's the case, fuck it why not have Bond portrayed by an Inuit or a Mayan?! They're none white too!


Its funny - if you replaced the word Bond with "Dr. Who" I wonder if those fans would present the same argument considering a black man is the front runner to take over that role....

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Post #: 40
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 6:15:32 PM   
will1000


Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: will1000

Okay, let's ignore the whole potential race issue and focus on the fact that Bond as a character is and has been white for over 40 years...don't you think that all of sudden re-inventing him as a black guy would be a total 'what the fuck?!' moment to the already established audience? I honestly think even the black community would disagree with the whole black Bond issue and instead prefer their own character that isn't a racial stereotype homeboy-from-da-hood type like xXx.

This whole argument seems like a 'we'll do it because we can' thing. If that's the case, fuck it why not have Bond portrayed by an Inuit or a Mayan?! They're none white too!


Its funny - if you replaced the word Bond with "Dr. Who" I wonder if those fans would present the same argument considering a black man is the front runner to take over that role....



...I see where you are coming from but Dr Who does have the whole mythical sci-fi thing going for his body swaps so having a black Dr Who isn't out of the realms of plausibility. James Bond doesn't have that and outside of the fact he hasn't aged at all in over 40 years of service it IS a given that he is white. If in the next film he was black after having been re-invented by the new films with Daniel Craig I think the majority of us not high on our own pretentiousness would go 'wait a minute, in the last film he was white...what the hell is going on?!'.

Plus Dr Who is a pile of sweaty balls


< Message edited by will1000 -- 24/11/2008 6:19:08 PM >


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Post #: 41
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 6:19:51 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: will1000


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: will1000

Okay, let's ignore the whole potential race issue and focus on the fact that Bond as a character is and has been white for over 40 years...don't you think that all of sudden re-inventing him as a black guy would be a total 'what the fuck?!' moment to the already established audience? I honestly think even the black community would disagree with the whole black Bond issue and instead prefer their own character that isn't a racial stereotype homeboy-from-da-hood type like xXx.

This whole argument seems like a 'we'll do it because we can' thing. If that's the case, fuck it why not have Bond portrayed by an Inuit or a Mayan?! They're none white too!


Its funny - if you replaced the word Bond with "Dr. Who" I wonder if those fans would present the same argument considering a black man is the front runner to take over that role....



...I see where you are coming from but Dr Who does have the whole mythical sci-fi thing going for his body swaps so having a black Dr Who isn't out of the realms of plausibility. James Bond doesn't have that and outside of the fact he hasn't aged at all in over 40 years of service it IS a given that he is white. If in the next film he was black after having been re-invented by the new films with Daniel Craig I think the majority of us not high on our own pretentiousness would go 'wait a minute, in the last film he was white...what the hell is going on?!'.





This is what I meant about the blank canvess up above. Even the same actor playing Bond can create different performances  - Connery in From Russia and Diamonds Are Forever are pretty different.

And I would be happy for anyone to try for Bond - I think being kept male and British is about as basic as you need to get. Duty and a somewhat out dated view of woman pretty much sum him up - as long as you keep those sort of basic chracter traits, the colour of an actor shouldn't be too much of an issue.

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Post #: 42
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 6:38:56 PM   
will1000


Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/10/2005
I don't think it is an issue of colour, more an issue of 'it isnt broken dont fix it'. It's the whole New Coke dilemma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke




< Message edited by will1000 -- 24/11/2008 6:41:01 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 7:34:24 PM   
Keyser Sozzled


Posts: 5993
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Dublin
Surely if it is between a poor white actor and a better black actor there is no argument? ....Will1000 I don't accept that the majority of people would turn away from Bond because he was a black guy. At the end of the day, the character of Bond has been rooted firmly in the past with only the recent movies trying to develop the character further than the page. In fact they even have some decent in-jokes in the later flicks.

Bond won't always be played by a white guy just because that is what happened before,  becuase if so it will become a case of him not being any kind of representation of the UK.......In fact I would argue that Bond's social relevance has long since wained and is in need of a shake up. Admittedly they have decided to shake things up in terms of tone, structure, action etc to rival Bourne (and a bloody good job they have done IMO).....But the idea of Bond being played by a White actor in 10 years time makes me laugh, becuase it is so out of touch with a supposed multi cultural society. If the best man for the job is black then give him the role, if not don't. It's presumpteous to think he would always be white because that was teh way he was written.

I doubt Fleming ever imagined that the world would have changed so much.

Or you could just make him a Muslim and watch the Daily Mail Head Office explode in righteous indignation.......

< Message edited by Keyser Sozzled -- 24/11/2008 7:35:39 PM >


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Post #: 44
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 7:59:55 PM   
will1000


Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/10/2005
Fuck it, yes, why bother discussing it. Bond should be black, lets turn every white character black in the face of a multicultural society. Have Morgan Freeman as Gandalf in the new Hobbit film.

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Post #: 45
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:02:01 PM   
Spengler


Posts: 2300
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Tamworth
I don't see why not. I personally favour the notion that 'James Bond' is an alias, and each one takes over from the last. I get the idea that to work for MI6 as a secret agent you generally have to be about 'the job' 100% of the time, not having any family or really any concerns about how whatever you do and who you get involved with effects anything outside your immediate life.

So yes, I think that could happen. It'd have to still be a British actor (or commonwealth [Lazenby]) though.

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Post #: 46
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:10:45 PM   
darth silas


Posts: 4949
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: My living room
quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Can't be much worse that what we currently have.
Damn! You beat me to it!

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Post #: 47
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:40:36 PM   
Spengler


Posts: 2300
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Tamworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Can't be much worse that what we currently have.
Damn! You beat me to it!


Interesting. Tell me, what makes Sophie Marceau such an expert on Bond? Cos she was in one?

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Post #: 48
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:42:39 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler


quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Can't be much worse that what we currently have.
Damn! You beat me to it!


Interesting. Tell me, what makes Sophie Marceau such an expert on Bond? Cos she was in one?


Thats the sort of expression that would make Roger Moore proud.

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It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


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Post #: 49
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:51:31 PM   
Spengler


Posts: 2300
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Tamworth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler


quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Can't be much worse that what we currently have.
Damn! You beat me to it!


Interesting. Tell me, what makes Sophie Marceau such an expert on Bond? Cos she was in one?


Thats the sort of expression that would make Roger Moore proud.


It would be more "cos one was in her?"


On a loosely related point, I remember I used to fancy the arse off Sophie Marceau when I first saw Braveheart.

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Post #: 50
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 8:54:56 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19037
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler


quote:

ORIGINAL: darth silas

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Can't be much worse that what we currently have.
Damn! You beat me to it!


Interesting. Tell me, what makes Sophie Marceau such an expert on Bond? Cos she was in one?


Thats the sort of expression that would make Roger Moore proud.


It would be more "cos one was in her?"


On a loosely related point, I remember I used to fancy the arse off Sophie Marceau when I first saw Braveheart.


Yeah - she was stunning in Bond as well, one of my favorite Bond girls - almost a prototype for Casino Royale.

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Post #: 51
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 9:05:54 PM   
directorscut


Posts: 10597
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler

I don't see why not. I personally favour the notion that 'James Bond' is an alias, and each one takes over from the last.


Your notion is way off.  James Bond is a real [fictional] character, not an alias.  He has a past and background.  His is [supposed to be] the same person in all the movies. 

And if it was an alias it would be incredibly stupid.  No organisation is going to use the same alias over and over again.  That defeats the purpose of aliases!




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Post #: 52
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 10:21:10 PM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24507
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler

I don't see why not. I personally favour the notion that 'James Bond' is an alias, and each one takes over from the last.


Your notion is way off.  James Bond is a real [fictional] character, not an alias.  He has a past and background.  His is [supposed to be] the same person in all the movies. 

And if it was an alias it would be incredibly stupid.  No organisation is going to use the same alias over and over again.  That defeats the purpose of aliases!





Also, the idea was used in the horrific Casino Royale. And, if it was true, why would Roger Moore be visiting Tracey's grave in For Your Eyes Only.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



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Post #: 53
RE: The Black Bond Question - 24/11/2008 11:55:54 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
And his marriage was referenced in Licence to Kill too.

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Post #: 54
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 12:31:50 AM   
Dirty Hartigan


Posts: 5890
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Manchester
BTW, how come no one cares that Felix Leiter is now black in the Bond films?

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Post #: 55
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 12:36:56 AM   
will1000


Posts: 1782
Joined: 8/10/2005
For the same reason no-one cared that M became a woMan...he isn't the focus of the film!

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Post #: 56
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 12:40:21 AM   
Rotary Ten


Posts: 922
Joined: 31/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb


quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

quote:

ORIGINAL: Spengler

I don't see why not. I personally favour the notion that 'James Bond' is an alias, and each one takes over from the last.


Your notion is way off.  James Bond is a real [fictional] character, not an alias.  He has a past and background.  His is [supposed to be] the same person in all the movies. 

And if it was an alias it would be incredibly stupid.  No organisation is going to use the same alias over and over again.  That defeats the purpose of aliases!



Also, the idea was used in the horrific Casino Royale. And, if it was true, why would Roger Moore be visiting Tracey's grave in For Your Eyes Only.


I can't see how Roger Moore is playing exactly the same Bond as Sean Connery - what happened to his Scottish accent?

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 57
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 12:41:52 AM   
Rotary Ten


Posts: 922
Joined: 31/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dirty Hartigan

BTW, how come no one cares that Felix Leiter is now black in the Bond films?


So many people have played Leiter now that I don't think people even remember who played him.

(in reply to Dirty Hartigan)
Post #: 58
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 4:17:04 AM   
Lydia_H


Posts: 3799
Joined: 26/11/2006
Bond is a superficial, entirely predictable character that doesn't require great performances. Craig has, apparently, managed to totally reinvent the role/series simply by being blonde and a looking a bit common. I don't think anyone could argue that one day a black actor may be more capable than a white actor because it's not a role that requires much capability anymore. Bond is a decorative character.

Are the benefits of a black Bond even remotely attached to cinema, or is this an excuse to pat ourselves on the back for recognizing we live in a multicultural society? Ever since Obama was elected everyone seems to be going out of their way to approve of black people, like we're trying to avoid war with them or something


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Post #: 59
RE: The Black Bond Question - 25/11/2008 8:00:35 AM   
krudler


Posts: 7018
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lydia_H

Bond is a superficial, entirely predictable character that doesn't require great performances. Craig has, apparently, managed to totally reinvent the role/series simply by being blonde and a looking a bit common. I don't think anyone could argue that one day a black actor may be more capable than a white actor because it's not a role that requires much capability anymore. Bond is a decorative character.

Are the benefits of a black Bond even remotely attached to cinema, or is this an excuse to pat ourselves on the back for recognizing we live in a multicultural society? Ever since Obama was elected everyone seems to be going out of their way to approve of black people, like we're trying to avoid war with them or something





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