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RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 3:02:29 AM

Tidus

Posts: 141
Joined: 13/10/2012

It IS racist to say that a white character from a book could not be black in a movie.

Patterson Joseph for Bond?

No.

Why?

Because he's black

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Fair enough if Bond's character had been set up to be a white, massive racist in a previous movie then he was black in the next movie it wouldn't make sense but I thought Bond movie's didn't really follow on from each other anyway?

It was nice how a lot of posters jumped on me for saying the word "racist"
I'm not being immature in saying that since that is what your being when you can't list a single valid reason that a black actor couldn't play a part except for the colour of his skin.

Also the "but he's white in the books" argument is just pathetic.

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Post #: 481

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 10:05:57 AM

DancingClown

Posts: 3543
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Also the "but he's white in the books" argument is just pathetic.

Not nearly as pathetic as your accusations of racism. Stop being a tit.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 17/11/2012 10:43:55 AM >

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Post #: 482

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 10:59:26 AM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11267
Joined: 30/9/2005

Is it sexist to turn down a woman who auditioned for the role? Jamie Bond could be a woman's name after all.

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 483

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 12:00:16 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Also the "but he's white in the books" argument is just pathetic.

Not nearly as pathetic as your accusations of racism. Stop being a tit.

He has a point tho! Why not argue against his points instead of calling him names?

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 484

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 12:02:10 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

Bond's skin doesn't *have* to be black tho. What's so difficult to understand about that?

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 485

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 12:17:46 PM

MonsterCat

Posts: 6207
Joined: 24/3/2011
From: St. Albans, Hertfordshire

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rhubarb

Chris Tucker for bond, the campaign starts now.

Nah, it has to either be Eddie Griffin or Martin Lawrence.

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Post #: 486

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 2:50:17 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3543
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Also the "but he's white in the books" argument is just pathetic.

Not nearly as pathetic as your accusations of racism. Stop being a tit.

He has a point tho! Why not argue against his points instead of calling him names?

No, he's accusing me and others of racism, which is unfounded, and he knows it. He is being a tit.

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Post #: 487

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 3:12:01 PM

Tidus

Posts: 141
Joined: 13/10/2012

I'm not being a tit I'm making a point.

Saying that somebody CAN"T do something BECAUSE of their RACE.

What do you call that?

Also

quote:

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

This is revolving back round to "but he's white in the books argument" which seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with.

quote:

Is it sexist to turn down a woman who auditioned for the role? Jamie Bond could be a woman's name after all.

Except his name is James, Also one of his major characteristics is that he's a lady man who pulls loads of women. He doesn't have any major characteristisc which define him as a white guy, Fair enough you could make Bond a women called James who is a lesbian but it would be changing a lot about the character which would be difficult an therefore not really sexist not to do so.

If a black man was cast the director would be changing the melanin content of Bond skin. NOT A BIG DEAL

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Post #: 488

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 3:14:33 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

What about that isn't racist? When the reason for turning an actor down for a part is due to the colour of his skin?

Or in this case due to the colour of the character's skin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Also the "but he's white in the books" argument is just pathetic.

Not nearly as pathetic as your accusations of racism. Stop being a tit.

He has a point tho! Why not argue against his points instead of calling him names?

No, he's accusing me and others of racism, which is unfounded, and he knows it. He is being a tit.

It's not unfounded tho. In Tidus' defence the argument against a black Bond being pushed in this thread does read like racism. I'm not specifically calling anyone a racist, but to suggest that someone is incapable of doing something purely because of the colour of their skin, which is the line being pushed here, certainly reads like racism to me, especially when the counter-argument (he was white in the books) is so weak.

Referring to other posters as a "tit" is only going to encourage Tidus' idea that this thread is full of knuckle-dragging thugs, if you have a point why not make it?

(in reply to DancingClown)

Post #: 489

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 3:53:03 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3543
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

It's not unfounded tho. In Tidus' defence the argument against a black Bond being pushed in this thread does read like racism. I'm not specifically calling anyone a racist, but to suggest that someone is incapable of doing something purely because of the colour of their skin, which is the line being pushed here, certainly reads like racism to me, especially when the counter-argument (he was white in the books) is so weak.

Well, I'm certainly not being racist and I resent any implication otherwise. No-one's saying a black actor would be incapable of playing Bond, I'm sure there are plenty of black actors who could do the job. But personally for me it makes more sense for Bond to be white and I think he works better as a white character. I could be wrong because we haven't seen it yet. But that is not a racist thing to say. It would be racist to say that a black man shouldn't and couldn't be Bond at all. I also prefer a male Bond. Does that make me sexist? No. At worst it makes me picky.

quote:

Referring to other posters as a "tit" is only going to encourage Tidus' idea that this thread is full of knuckle-dragging thugs, if you have a point why not make it?

My point is that it's absurd to chuck around reactionary accusations of racism. And doing so makes one a tit. Yet being called a tit is actually fairly mild compared to being labelled racist which is a fairly serious thing to say. And if he or anyone else thinks this thread is full of "knuckle-dragging thugs" then he's being an offensive tit as well.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 17/11/2012 3:55:00 PM >

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Post #: 490

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 4:04:18 PM

MonsterCat

Posts: 6207
Joined: 24/3/2011
From: St. Albans, Hertfordshire

Personally I couldn't give a fuck if the actor is black, white or purple with yellow dots. As long as he does a good job it doesn't really matter to me.

I heard Idris Elba met with Eon about taking over after Daniel Craig. When this was brought up on Kevin Smith's showbiz gossip podcast, Smith he would rather see Elba as Batman, which I think is a pretty interesting idea.

< Message edited by MonsterCat -- 17/11/2012 4:06:08 PM >

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Post #: 491

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 4:32:50 PM

Tidus

Posts: 141
Joined: 13/10/2012

quote:

It would be racist to say that a black man shouldn't and couldn't be Bond at all

That's been my entire point the whole time but apparently I'm being a tit.

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Post #: 492

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 4:49:43 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: MonsterCat
When this was brought up on Kevin Smith's showbiz gossip podcast, Smith he would rather see Elba as Batman, which I think is a pretty interesting idea.

BUT BRUCE WAYNE IS WHITE!!!

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Post #: 493

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 4:54:06 PM

Hood_Man

Posts: 11267
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Except his name is James

He's whatever variations others come up with like James, Jamie, Jim etc. He was actually called Jimbo by Jack Wade in Goldeneye.

Unless we argue that a character is whoever they call themselves, in which case any character who calls themselves Jim (Captain James T. Kirk), any character called Chris, or Tom or Bill (which comes from William) is now wrong since presumably they wouldn't have their shorter names on their birth certificates.

If you're going to argue that we can't change the name because "that's his name," then why can't a white character stay white "because he is?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus Also one of his major characteristics is that he's a lady man who pulls loads of women. He doesn't have any major characteristisc which define him as a white guy, Fair enough you could make Bond a women called James who is a lesbian but it would be changing a lot about the character which would be difficult an therefore not really sexist not to do so.

If a black man was cast the director would be changing the melanin content of Bond skin. NOT A BIG DEAL

You'd be changing his (or hers, lets roll with this) historical background too. The life experience of a young black male growing up in the UK in the 60's and 70's (if we assume the new Bond would be in his mid-late forties right now) wouldn't be the same as that of a white child.

It's not just the amount of melanin that would change.

< Message edited by Hood_Man -- 17/11/2012 4:56:34 PM >

(in reply to Tidus)

Post #: 494

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 5:09:04 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7496
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

but I thought Bond movie's didn't really follow on from each other anyway?

Then your argument is based on a misapprehension. QoS is a direct sequel to Casino Royale for starters.

The James Bond in at least the first 20 films is definitely the same person (I class Craig's Bond as the same person, just rebooted). His dead wife from OHMSS is explicitly referred to in at least 3 films and hinted at in a further 2 for example. James Bond is a person, not a codename. The codename is 007.

You could reboot Bond and make him black, sure. He wouldn't be Bond as written but that wouldn't really bother me. What would bother me is if in Bond 24 a white man (who had been white for films spanning 5 decades) had become a black man for no reason other than tokenism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

This is revolving back round to "but he's white in the books argument" which seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with.

He's also white in 23 films.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 17/11/2012 5:16:02 PM >

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Post #: 495

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 5:26:05 PM

Tidus

Posts: 141
Joined: 13/10/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

This is revolving back round to "but he's white in the books argument" which seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with.

He's also white in 23 films.

Ok so the "but he's white in the books" argument and the "he's white in the books and the previous films" argument are totally different arguments?

quote:

You'd be changing his (or hers, lets roll with this) historical background too. The life experience of a young black male growing up in the UK in the 60's and 70's (if we assume the new Bond would be in his mid-late forties right now) wouldn't be the same as that of a white child.

It could be though.

quote:

What would bother me is if in Bond 24 a white man (who had been white for films spanning 5 decades) had become a black man for no reason other than tokenism.

Tokenism???? That is truly ridiculous.

If a black actor gave the best audition then give him the part.

Also I don't care if a few of the Bond movies are sequels or whatever, As long as there has been nothing in the script that dictates Bond HAS to be white then I can see no reason why he has to be.

Can anyone give me a single reason why a black actor can't play Bond that doesn't boil down to "he's usually white"

Interestingly what would any of the anti-blackbonder's have to say, assuming Craig's contract was cancelled, if it was announced Colin Salmon was Bond in the next movie I mean SERIOUSLY what would be so horribly offensive about that?

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Post #: 496

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 5:28:10 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

but I thought Bond movie's didn't really follow on from each other anyway?

Then your argument is based on a misapprehension. QoS is a direct sequel to Casino Royale for starters.

The James Bond in at least the first 20 films is definitely the same person (I class Craig's Bond as the same person, just rebooted). His dead wife from OHMSS is explicitly referred to in at least 3 films and hinted at in a further 2 for example. James Bond is a person, not a codename. The codename is 007.

It's a loose continuation at best. Bond doesn't age across the 20 films for example. They're very much standalone films. QoS being a sequel to CR is notable for being something of an exception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

You could reboot Bond and make him black, sure. He wouldn't be Bond as written but that wouldn't really bother me. What would bother me is if in Bond 24 a white man (who had been white for films spanning 5 decades) had become a black man for no reason other than tokenism.

Who said anything about "tokenism"? The tone of this thread is quite the opposite, with the mere thought of a black actor playing Bond the reason for the aghast, irregardless of any further details.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

This is revolving back round to "but he's white in the books argument" which seems to be the only argument anyone can come up with.

He's also white in 23 films.

And? Why does that mean he couldn't be black in a future film? Wuthering Heights' Heathcliff has been played countless times on stage and screen, by many white actors (the character is described as "dark skinned" in the Bronte novel).

(in reply to Harry Tuttle)

Post #: 497

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 5:52:18 PM

Tidus

Posts: 141
Joined: 13/10/2012

quote:

personally for me it makes more sense for Bond to be white and I think he works better as a white character. I could be wrong because we haven't seen it yet. But that is not a racist thing to say

I don't know who this is directed at but I agree that this isn't a racist statement although I'm not sure if you had stated this before I mentioned racism.

I'll say again

quote:

It IS racist to say that a white character from a book could not be black in a movie.

If anyone has a PREFERENCE to a white actor playing Bond of course that isn't racist. I prefer Brosnan to Craig does that make me prejudice? obviously not.

The point I'm making is towards the people who seem to be from the dark ages saying that it's basically wrong for a black man to play Bond which, without scrawling through the whole thread for quotes, seems to be the general theme.

I'm totally fine with people having preferences for different actors playing Bond�but there is a limit. Bond being black would not be a big deal and wouldn't change the story in anyway whereas him being a woman would change the story dramatically and something that I think would be a bad move.

I think a lot of the posters on here didn't understand my original Horsebond analogy.

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Post #: 498

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 5:58:16 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7496
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

but I thought Bond movie's didn't really follow on from each other anyway?

Then your argument is based on a misapprehension. QoS is a direct sequel to Casino Royale for starters.

The James Bond in at least the first 20 films is definitely the same person (I class Craig's Bond as the same person, just rebooted). His dead wife from OHMSS is explicitly referred to in at least 3 films and hinted at in a further 2 for example. James Bond is a person, not a codename. The codename is 007.

It's a loose continuation at best. Bond doesn't age across the 20 films for example. They're very much standalone films. QoS being a sequel to CR is notable for being something of an exception.

It's a continuation nonetheless. If James Bond was the codename then fair enough but James Bond is a person. A person that's established as being white. Granted, his parentage was never mentioned prior to Dr No's release but for the last 48 years he's been established as having a Scottish father and a Swiss mother (back in 1964 the chances of them being anything but white would have been non existent). I'm truly confused as to why this argument is continuing to be honest. If Laurence Fishburne had refused to do the Matrix sequels would everyone have been alright with Morpheus being white? If the best audition for a future Blade films was by a white person then he should get the gig right? What if Jason Statham, for example, gave the best audition for any future Luke Cage film, should he get the gig despite the fact that Luke Cage has been established as a black character for 40 years? I don't recall a single complaint from anywhere that a white actor wasn't in contention for the role of Falcon in the forthcoming sequel to Captain America.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

You could reboot Bond and make him black, sure. He wouldn't be Bond as written but that wouldn't really bother me. What would bother me is if in Bond 24 a white man (who had been white for films spanning 5 decades) had become a black man for no reason other than tokenism.

Who said anything about "tokenism"? The tone of this thread is quite the opposite, with the mere thought of a black actor playing Bond the reason for the aghast, irregardless of any further details.

I did. Changing a pre existing white character into a black one rather than addressing the fact that the majority of heroes in film are white by creating some good black characters is sheer tokenism as far as I'm concerned.

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Post #: 499

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 6:17:18 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

but I thought Bond movie's didn't really follow on from each other anyway?

Then your argument is based on a misapprehension. QoS is a direct sequel to Casino Royale for starters.

The James Bond in at least the first 20 films is definitely the same person (I class Craig's Bond as the same person, just rebooted). His dead wife from OHMSS is explicitly referred to in at least 3 films and hinted at in a further 2 for example. James Bond is a person, not a codename. The codename is 007.

It's a loose continuation at best. Bond doesn't age across the 20 films for example. They're very much standalone films. QoS being a sequel to CR is notable for being something of an exception.

It's a continuation nonetheless.

It's a loose continuation nonetheless. Things are adaptable, as has been shown throughout the 50 years of the character. The ironic thing being that it's precisely this ability to adapt that is the reason the characters success.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If James Bond was the codename then fair enough but James Bond is a person. A person that's established as being white. Granted, his parentage was never mentioned prior to Dr No's release but for the last 48 years he's been established as having a Scottish father and a Swiss mother (back in 1964 the chances of them being anything but white would have been non existent). I'm truly confused as to why this argument is continuing to be honest.

You're probably confused by the schizophrenic nature of your own argument. You're contradicting your own point by referring to the fact that his lineage was retroactively redefined in the wake of the success of Connery's turn in Dr. No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If Laurence Fishburne had refused to do the Matrix sequels would everyone have been alright with Morpheus being white? If the best audition for a future Blade films was by a white person then he should get the gig right? What if Jason Statham, for example, gave the best audition for any future Luke Cage film, should he get the gig despite the fact that Luke Cage has been established as a black character for 40 years? I don't recall a single complaint from anywhere that a white actor wasn't in contention for the role of Falcon in the forthcoming sequel to Captain America.

I can't help but feel you're skewing the point somewhat. The Matrix Reloaded is a direct sequel to The Matrix. Had any character seen a change of actor it would have been more noticeable than in a series like Bond.

Luke Cage is a character whose origins are intricately ground in the cultural shift of the early 1970's. A better example would be Nick Fury, whose ethnicity has changed to suit the needs of a particular incarnation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

I did. Changing a pre existing white character into a black one rather than addressing the fact that the majority of heroes in film are white by creating some good black characters is sheer tokenism as far as I'm concerned.

But nobody is saying that Bond should be played by a black actor for that reason. It's rhetoric like "tokenism" that makes people sound like massive racists.

(in reply to Harry Tuttle)

Post #: 500

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 6:27:51 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7496
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If James Bond was the codename then fair enough but James Bond is a person. A person that's established as being white. Granted, his parentage was never mentioned prior to Dr No's release but for the last 48 years he's been established as having a Scottish father and a Swiss mother (back in 1964 the chances of them being anything but white would have been non existent). I'm truly confused as to why this argument is continuing to be honest.

You're probably confused by the schizophrenic nature of your own argument. You're contradicting your own point by referring to the fact that his lineage was retroactively redefined in the wake of the success of Connery's turn in Dr. No.

It was never redefined. It wasn't initially defined until after Connery's turn.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If Laurence Fishburne had refused to do the Matrix sequels would everyone have been alright with Morpheus being white? If the best audition for a future Blade films was by a white person then he should get the gig right? What if Jason Statham, for example, gave the best audition for any future Luke Cage film, should he get the gig despite the fact that Luke Cage has been established as a black character for 40 years? I don't recall a single complaint from anywhere that a white actor wasn't in contention for the role of Falcon in the forthcoming sequel to Captain America.

I can't help but feel you're skewing the point somewhat. The Matrix Reloaded is a direct sequel to The Matrix. Had any character seen a change of actor it would have been more noticeable than in a series like Bond.

Luke Cage is a character whose origins are intricately ground in the cultural shift of the early 1970's. A better example would be Nick Fury, whose ethnicity has changed to suit the needs of a particular incarnation.

I disagree. Without being rebooted I reckon changing the race of a character would be incredibly jarring regardless of the franchise. Plus, the 616 continuity version of Nick Fury is still white. It's the Ultimate imprint that has the Sam L Jackson lookalike Nick Fury.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

I did. Changing a pre existing white character into a black one rather than addressing the fact that the majority of heroes in film are white by creating some good black characters is sheer tokenism as far as I'm concerned.

But nobody is saying that Bond should be played by a black actor for that reason. It's rhetoric like "tokenism" that makes people sound like massive racists.

Whatevs. In my opinion the racial diversity of heroes in Hollywood does need to be shaken up as the vast majority are white. I don't think changing established white characters into black ones is the way to do it though. The key thing for me is that Bond is a white character and has been for fifty years. Changing his race without actually rebooting the character again would feel tokenistic to me.

Edited to clarify a point.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 17/11/2012 6:35:24 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 501

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 6:31:30 PM

DancingClown

Posts: 3543
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus

quote:

It would be racist to say that a black man shouldn't and couldn't be Bond at all

That's been my entire point the whole time but apparently I'm being a tit.

It would be racist if the preference was driven by a dislike/hatred of black people, and the idea that a black actor would be incapable of filling those shoes due to inferiority. I haven't seen any proof of that kind of deep-seated prejudice in this thread. Some people have stated a preference for a white Bond because they feel it makes more sense. You may feel that view is narrow artistically but it isn't proof of racism.

It's a serious claim to accuse people of racism and I just feel that if you think someone is definitely being racist then you need to single them out, confront them, allow them to defend themselves if necessary. Don't just throw the term around in such a nebulous fashion because you're frustrated.

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Post #: 502

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 7:02:25 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

I disagree. Without being rebooted I reckon changing the race of a character would be incredibly jarring regardless of the franchise. Plus, the 616 continuity version of Nick Fury is still white. It's the Ultimate imprint that has the Sam L Jackson lookalike Nick Fury.

That's not strictly true. As a part of the Marvel NOW! soft relaunch that's currently rolling out the original Fury has been replaced by his long-lost son Nick Jr. who looks like the Ultimate Fury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Johnson_(comics)

But alas, that's diverting the point. As we've already established continuity in the Bond franchise is loose at best, with the odd exception. For what it's worth I don't think anyone pro-Black actors is saying that they'd expect a black actor to walk in to the performance in a film like Skyfall 2 or QoS. It'd be a cleaner break ala Casino Royale or Goldeneye.

(in reply to Harry Tuttle)

Post #: 503

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 7:03:31 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If James Bond was the codename then fair enough but James Bond is a person. A person that's established as being white. Granted, his parentage was never mentioned prior to Dr No's release but for the last 48 years he's been established as having a Scottish father and a Swiss mother (back in 1964 the chances of them being anything but white would have been non existent). I'm truly confused as to why this argument is continuing to be honest.

You're probably confused by the schizophrenic nature of your own argument. You're contradicting your own point by referring to the fact that his lineage was retroactively redefined in the wake of the success of Connery's turn in Dr. No.

It was never redefined. It wasn't initially defined until after Connery's turn.

Arguing semantics ain't going to change the fact that not one genuine point has been made for the case against a Black Bond.

(in reply to Harry Tuttle)

Post #: 504

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 7:22:20 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7496
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle

If James Bond was the codename then fair enough but James Bond is a person. A person that's established as being white. Granted, his parentage was never mentioned prior to Dr No's release but for the last 48 years he's been established as having a Scottish father and a Swiss mother (back in 1964 the chances of them being anything but white would have been non existent). I'm truly confused as to why this argument is continuing to be honest.

You're probably confused by the schizophrenic nature of your own argument. You're contradicting your own point by referring to the fact that his lineage was retroactively redefined in the wake of the success of Connery's turn in Dr. No.

It was never redefined. It wasn't initially defined until after Connery's turn.

Arguing semantics ain't going to change the fact that not one genuine point has been made for the case against a Black Bond.

I think the fact that the current iteration of Bond is a white character is reason enough to be honest. You, and some others don't, so we'll leave it at that. You can go on about the looseness of the continuity all you like but the fact remains that there is continuity. He is the same person from film to film so without another reboot I think changing the race of the character and expecting it not to jarr massively would be crazy.

Also I wasn't arguing semantics, I was retorting to your comment that I was confused by the schizophrenic nature of my argument by correcting you.

quote:

That's not strictly true. As a part of the Marvel NOW! soft relaunch that's currently rolling out the original Fury has been replaced by his long-lost son Nick Jr. who looks like the Ultimate Fury

It is strictly true. Nick Fury Jr. is not Nick Fury. Nick Fury still exists. But, yeah that's beside the point.

quote:

For what it's worth I don't think anyone pro-Black actors is saying that they'd expect a black actor to walk in to the performance in a film like Skyfall 2 or QoS. It'd be a cleaner break ala Casino Royale or Goldeneye.

That's pretty much what I've been saying. You couldn't have a black Bond without rebooting the character again (although I don't personally class Goldeneye as a clean break in the same way as Casino Royale).

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 17/11/2012 7:27:55 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 505

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 7:53:56 PM

paul_lfc

Posts: 264
Joined: 19/5/2006

I think people dont like being called something serious like racist because they would prefer a film character to be white, What about a gay Bond? Nah me neither but Im not homophobic
Or a fat bond? No...
Ginger with freckles? No

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 506

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 8:31:23 PM

adambatman82

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
From: Sheffield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle
I think the fact that the current iteration of Bond is a white character is reason enough to be honest. You, and some others don't, so we'll leave it at that.

The problem stems from the fact that that's a little bit racist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle
You can go on about the looseness of the continuity all you like but the fact remains that there is continuity.

Yes there is. But it's loose. The loose part is the important bit. It means that its open to adaptation. I don't understand why this is a point of contention.

(in reply to Harry Tuttle)

Post #: 507

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 10:04:42 PM

homersimpson_esq

Posts: 19961
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
He doesn't have any major characteristisc which define him as a white guy,

Oh, PLEASE, list some of these characteristics. I am agog.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tidus
Interestingly what would any of the anti-blackbonder's have to say, assuming Craig's contract was cancelled, if it was announced Colin Salmon was Bond in the next movie I mean SERIOUSLY what would be so horribly offensive about that?

Salmon isn't that great an actor.

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Post #: 508

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 10:14:33 PM

gunstar

Posts: 964
Joined: 11/3/2006
From: Star Lite Star Bright Trailer Park

quote:

Salmon isn't that great an actor.

RACIST!!!!

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(in reply to homersimpson_esq)

Post #: 509

RE: The Black Bond Question - 17/11/2012 10:33:10 PM

Harry Tuttle

Posts: 7496
Joined: 12/11/2005
From: Sometime in the future.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle
I think the fact that the current iteration of Bond is a white character is reason enough to be honest. You, and some others don't, so we'll leave it at that.

The problem stems from the fact that that's a little bit racist.

Really? Because you acknowledge as much yourself with this post.

quote:

But alas, that's diverting the point. As we've already established continuity in the Bond franchise is loose at best, with the odd exception. For what it's worth I don't think anyone pro-Black actors is saying that they'd expect a black actor to walk in to the performance in a film like Skyfall 2 or QoS. It'd be a cleaner break ala Casino Royale or Goldeneye

What you're saying there is pretty much exactly what I've been saying and you've been disagreeing with. That to bring in a black actor you'd have to reboot the character again and break away from current continuity.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Tuttle
You can go on about the looseness of the continuity all you like but the fact remains that there is continuity.

Yes there is. But it's loose. The loose part is the important bit. It means that its open to adaptation. I don't understand why this is a point of contention.

To me the important bit is continuity. You can say the important part is loose all you want but you're not speaking for everybody. That's where the contention lies.

For the record, to sum up because you're obviously either being deliberately obtuse or missing the point completely, I think you could have a black Bond, but it couldn't be the current Bond in the current continuity. It would have to be rebooted, which is much the same as what you've said in what I've quoted above.

I guess that makes both of us a little bit racist.

< Message edited by Harry Tuttle -- 17/11/2012 10:41:50 PM >

_____________________________

Acting...Naturaaal

Your knowledge of scientific biological transmogrification is only outmatched by your zest for kung-fu treachery!

Blood Island. So called because it's the exact shape of some blood

(in reply to adambatman82)

Post #: 510