Register  |   Log In  |  
Sign up to our weekly newsletter    
Follow us on   
Search   
Forum Home Register for Free! Log In Moderator Tickets FAQ Users Online

Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar.

 
Logged in as: Guest
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [On Another Note...] >> Off Topic >> Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 12:29:10 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar.

In a world where text messaging is invading other aspects of life (even with a full keyboard, people on Facebook etc still insist on conversing in txtspk) are spelling, punctuation and grammar becoming less relevant, or does there need to be a revival of teaching giving them due importance?


As an example of where punctuation is critical, consider the following sentence:


A  woman: without  her, man  is  nothing.

Highlight the sentence to reveal the punctuation and how it changes the meaning of the sentence entirely.


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.
Post #: 1
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 12:30:59 AM   
Rhubarb


Posts: 24507
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: No Direction Home
oooh look at you.

There was a feature on Newsnight the other night about how no-one uses apostrophes anymore, and where its appropriate to use them. Apparently they're only 150 years old.

_____________________________

Team Ginge
WWLD?


quote:

ORIGINAL: FritzlFan

You organisational skills sicken me, Rhubarb.



(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 2
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 12:32:15 AM   
Stewie_Griffin


Posts: 6968
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: St.Albans, Hertfordshire
My spelling, puncuation and grammar are pretty terrible, i'd be the first to admit that.

_____________________________

Welcome to Sesame Street, kids. Today's word is "Expiation"

(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 3
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 12:33:09 AM   
Goodfella


Posts: 17033
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: North Devon
Text talk is very prominent nowadays and it deeply frustrates me. I even have lecturers who e-mail me in text language.

I may use it on facebook but I would never use it here.

_____________________________

"It is the Shawshank Redemption! Just with more tunneling through shit and less fucking redemption."

If you can quote the rules, then you can obey them.


(in reply to Rhubarb)
Post #: 4
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 1:03:31 AM   
Acho


Posts: 3904
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar.

In a world where text messaging is invading other aspects of life (even with a full keyboard, people on Facebook etc still insist on conversing in txtspk) are spelling, punctuation and grammar becoming less relevant, or does there need to be a revival of teaching giving them due importance?


As an example of where punctuation is critical, consider the following sentence:


A  woman: without  her, man  is  nothing.

Highlight the sentence to reveal the punctuation and how it changes the meaning of the sentence entirely.



Ooh, ooh, I know this one!

Women are meant to say:
A woman: without her, man is nothing.

Men are meant to say:
A woman, without her man, is nothing.

What do I win?!

I will add another important one: syntax. They're my big four - spelling, grammar, punctuation and syntax. I'm a stickler for them (and consequently I'm terrified of getting one or more of them wrong in this post!) and was just giving out about the absence of them in some of my colleagues' work emails today.

Text speak wrecks my face. I don't abbreviate anything in a text message, on a point of principle at this stage.


_____________________________



(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 5
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 1:07:27 AM   
steffols


Posts: 7687
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Jungleland
Having just read 'eats, shoots and leaves', this thread will give me a headache if I stay for much longer.

The problem, I think is in the schools.  They dont teach puncutation very well in my opinion.  From experience I can remember being quite confused as to how to use a comma or apostrophe and never actually getting anywhere when asked for a better explanation. The key to teaching in Scottish primary schools seems to be, if a child asks for a fuller explanation, repeat what you have just told them.  Note to teachers - it doesnt help.

Puncutation is such a strange thing in the English language.  The beautiful thing about our language is that it is constantly evolving.  There are words that exist now that didnt exist 5 years ago.  Same goes for punctuation.  There is no need for an apostrophe in certain places when there was one about 20 years ago.  Its just a matter of preference really.  Punctuation is there to stop confusion when reading.  But notice how I havent used an apostrophe for words such as 'don't' 'didnt' 'It's'.  There isnt really any need for apostrophes in that circumstance anymore because people know what you mean whether its there or not.  Of course its still important if you go into the whole possesive area, but its so mind-boggingly confusing, Im not going to even attempt it.

Punctuation is evolving as is the language.  It seems perfectly natural to some people to say 'wher r u goin'  rather than 'Where are you going?'  the important thing is we distinguish between colloquial and proper writing.  I would hate to see punctuation and spelling going down the pan just because we understand what they are saying without an apostrophe or a silent letter.

_____________________________

It's midnight in Manhattan, this is no time to get cute, it's a mad dog's promenade,
So walk tall, or baby don't walk at all.

(in reply to Goodfella)
Post #: 6
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 3:22:45 AM   
Incanus


Posts: 16000
Joined: 23/7/2008
From: Winterfell
Like the Oracle said to Neo -- since this remains a films' forum -- "everything begins with choice."

One can choose to write in whatever way one sees fit depending on circumstances, naturally. Text-messaging and e-mails present one with certain problems, those being primarily only a very little space to fit several sentences and a very short time to write them, so, in such cases, it's not the form of the text that matters, as long as the meaning of the text gets through.

But one needs to know first, how the perfect and complete sentence should look like, before choosing to write it in abbreviated forms, the way a modern abstract painter would be well-served, if he / she were first familiar with Art History and all the previous forms of typical naturalistic painting. It is very handy to know how to draw a perfect naturalistic tree, if you wish to ultimately trim your sketch to simple, abstract lines.

The right to this choice is not given to school-children, if their teachers do not bother to explain to them, what a proper or complete sentence should look like. For example, where the comma should be placed, or what the purpose of the apostrophe is supposed to be.

Of course, our brains are well-conditioned to cmoperhend even this highlighted word, though comprehend should have been the correct form. Again, it is a matter of choice. I could write words like this, you would be able to understand, perhaps not easily at first, but pretty soon you'd get the idea.

The write /rite /right  thyme /time  is /ease now.

If, however, we decided to begin writing words the way we understand them phonetically, which would end up being in a rather arbitrary manner for almost each one of us, and not the way linguists had agreed to spell them in dictionaries [for there was a time when the spelling of "time" was debated between "teim," "taim," "thime," "thyme" and several more], then people would think that the proper way is not a uniform way, but one depending on the special accents indigenous to each part of the country. Pretty soon we'd all wish for uniformity, since we tend to organise all things related to our civilisation, though we do enjoy the occasional exceptions to our heavily regulated lives.

One might say, "are you so dumb, to not understand an abbreviated word?" A nasty example is "through". Th- and -r- are necessary, especially th- since it cannot be duplicated by a shorter form, unless we began to use the Greek alphabet, which has the letter Θ (/theta/) to depict that sound. But -ough instead of a simple -u? The mute -gh represent a phonetic value, which elongates the sound of -ou-. But the American form thru is still not a terrible solution.

How about serviceable? Why not sirvicibl or cervicibl? Manuv'r instead of manoeuvre? The way words are spelt demonstrates the origin of these words: service+able, while cervix (plural cervices sounding remarkably like services) is the narrow passage at the opening of a woman's womb. Mano (=by hand) + oeuvre (= work), the work of one's hand originally, is the way one steers a vehicle or vessel, then extended into the way one performs skillful movements, like the way an army team performs military manoeuvres, or even the way in which one devises careful plans by guiding one's thought through a mental road riddled with problems.

Again, if we chose to abandon that use of the proper spelling (which indicates to linguists the history of the words) and decided to keep only those phonetic values that get the message through / thru, we would still be in need of a codification of the new spelling rules. So, new dictionaries would be necessary. Chaos would not hold sway for much time /thyme /teim/ taim / etc.

But is the history of a word any use to me or any other common folk? Words are not mere sounds. Words are the fundamental way our mind forms basic thoughts, grammar and syntax help construct more complex thoughts. When I think the idea of  "tree," I do not need to think of any specific tree in my back yard, a linden tree or an oak, etc. I simply conjure up the word "tree" in my mind. A person becomes poorer in their mental appreciation of the world, unless they possess the proper words to describe this world. Our thinking is most powerful when it is abstract, and words (oral sounds, depicted or not in written symbols) provide this abstract quality to our thoughts. Now, if I were to take away from a word its specific spelling, in order to make things easier for say school-children, I would not be subtracting from their appreciation of the word's history, since they could not care less at their age, but I would be severely hampering their future ability to comprehend the fashion an idea had been formed in the distant past that resulted in the formation of that word. I would be purposefully doing damage to their way of thinking.

Words that sound similar, albeit different in meaning, are varied in morphology because the original idea that gave rise to them was different, i.e. they came about to describe a different thought / notion, etc., and because they originated from different lanugages, the speakers of which had come up with that idea in a form that had prevailed later on over the rest of them. So, if I were to simplify things phonetically, then time deriving from the Latin tempus, and the herb thyme deriving from the Greek name for this plant, would be one and the same, though they are not related in any way, nor do they denote the same thing, not by a long shot. Imagine the large scale confusion, if this would become the rule about spelling. Of course this could not prevail in the long run, since very soon people would begin to invent new words to describe things and differentiate between them.

The same goes for grammar and syntax. The more complicated a thought is, the more complex the syntax is. Why? Because, if our thought is formed to make use of a lot of interrelated material (verbs to describe the action, adverbs to describe the manner / time / place, etc, clauses to describe the purpose or cause, etc.), one relying on the other, then our sentence might end up holding together several clauses, one being closely connected to the rest, to represent our original thought. Now, a trained mind has made so much progress in this, that it is able to formulate long but simple sentences. Abstraction. A less trained mind possesses no clear idea of what should end up in the sentence, so it throws in all the material it considers necessary. But in order to learn and train in how to manage abstract thinking, one must first learn how to formulate full, longwinded, complicated, boring thoughts.

You need to have something first in order to end up with the gist of it.

So, one would be better served if they learned more and more words, to describe more precisely what they have in mind, to make sure all the fine nuances are there for anyone to see. One thing about abbreviations, like lol, btw or wtf is that they tend to perniciously become part and parcel of everyday written speech in a way that makes people feel comfortable around texts loaded with such abbreviations. To a certain extent they serve their purpose well. But there is also a trap: some people may begin to like this form of communication so much, that they might tend to feel a subliminal aversion towards extensive and more complete forms of communication. Literature suddenly becomes a bore, and a large number of people find it hard to flick through the entire newspaper article, sticking instead to the head title and perhaps the first and last paragraphs, skipping and scanning through the rest of it.

We are creatures of habit. If we start to like a certain way of eating, walking, driving, speaking, then this tends to become the norm in all parts of our life. If we start to like a certain way of thinking, the fast and short one, and act upon our impulse, say condemning those who think or write in a different way to ours, then we may find that the road back is not so easy to take.

< Message edited by Incanus -- 19/11/2008 4:14:35 AM >


_____________________________

WINTER IS COMING

T h e 2 4 t h F r a m e . c o . u k

Cuiva Olorin
Narendur.
Tira nottolya
Tulta tuolya.
An mauya mahtie
Ter oiomornie
Ter ondicilyar
Mettanna.
Nurunna!

(in reply to steffols)
Post #: 7
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 8:36:45 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to Incanus)
Post #: 8
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:18:45 AM   
WilliamMunny


Posts: 6764
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: McAnally's
WoTRsPELLinPuNCtuaSHUNanGraMMA?



_____________________________

Harry Dresden - Wizard
Lost items found. Paranormal investigations. Consulting. Advice. Reasonable rates. No love potions, endless purses, parties or other entertainment.

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 9
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:21:19 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
The apostrophe often falls down because you feel the need to include it after a vowel, generally 'o'. For example I need to buy some radio's. i.e. radios.

However English convention means that you should say radios, ra-dios rather than ra-di-os. Hence why people feel the need to seperate the vowel from the 's', even when it's incorrect.

Zoos becomes Zoo's

_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 10
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:26:30 AM   
Felix

 

Posts: 15692
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal

The apostrophe often falls down because you feel the need to include it after a vowel, generally 'o'. For example I need to buy some radio's. i.e. radios.

However English convention means that you should say radios, ra-dios rather than ra-di-os. Hence why people feel the need to seperate the vowel from the 's', even when it's incorrect.

Zoos becomes Zoo's


I can honestly say I've never thought of having to put an apostrophe after a vowel.

To be honest, I'd rather read text speak than overly pretentious drivel stretched out with long words to make it sounds more intelligent that it actually is.

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to Kilo_T_Mortal)
Post #: 11
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:27:54 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Felix


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal

The apostrophe often falls down because you feel the need to include it after a vowel, generally 'o'. For example I need to buy some radio's. i.e. radios.

However English convention means that you should say radios, ra-dios rather than ra-di-os. Hence why people feel the need to seperate the vowel from the 's', even when it's incorrect.

Zoos becomes Zoo's


I can honestly say I've never thought of having to put an apostrophe after a vowel.

To be honest, I'd rather read text speak than overly pretentious drivel stretched out with long words to make it sounds more intelligent that it actually is.




_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to Felix)
Post #: 12
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:36:59 AM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland
People should work a little harder to use punctuation, grammar and to have better spelling.

One thing though that really annoys me is people saying 'should of'. It's 'should have', people!!!

_____________________________

You're killing Independent George!!!!

(in reply to Kilo_T_Mortal)
Post #: 13
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:51:24 AM   
Penguin of Death


Posts: 439
Joined: 3/10/2005
Blaming teachers doesn't work - blaming the curriculum they have to teach is the problem. I have a friend who is an English teacher and therefore teaches English language and English Literature. In English Language Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar (SPAG) are the important part - fine, but in English Language the important part is what they are saying - when the work is marked she is not allowed to penalise them on any part of the SPAG, achild could, in theory, hand in an essay in txt speak and she'd have to give it full marks

I finished my A Levels 10 years ago and IIRC 5% of any exam mark in any subject went to SPAG

_____________________________

To the engineer everything can be placed into one of two categories: things that need to be fixed, and things that will need to be fixed after you've had a few minutes to play with them.

www.wrg.org.uk

(in reply to Wilbert)
Post #: 14
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 9:57:17 AM   
kathryn2

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 24/4/2006
Heh. I work in publishing, and do some freelance copyediting on occasion. That means I have a highly developed eye for spelling, punctuation, and grammar. It doesn't mean that I never make mistakes, though - we're all human!

Text speak drives me nuts, and playing with the caps lock should be banned! I can understand it in text messages, but there's no reason to use it anywhere else - and I don't understand the caps thing at all, surely that takes more effort?

Apostrophes being used wrongly make me grind my teeth - it's really not complicated people!
If it's a plural - apostrophes, zoos, holidays - you just stick an s on the end! My local travel agent actually has as sign up at the moment advertising discounts on "hundreds of holiday's". Grrrrr!

< Message edited by kathryn2 -- 19/11/2008 10:04:44 AM >

(in reply to Wilbert)
Post #: 15
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 10:38:39 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
Could be an ellipsis: discounts on "hundreds of holiday's prices", in which case it'd be right.

Felix, while I can't speak for most people, I can say that personally if I find a word that is most ideally suited for a particular use and it happens to be a long one, then I don't see why I should have to use a reduced vocabulary to appease those who may feel I am being 'overly pretentious'. I'm not - I just like to use the right word for the right occasion.


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to kathryn2)
Post #: 16
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 11:09:26 AM   
kathryn2

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 24/4/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Could be an ellipsis: discounts on "hundreds of holiday's prices", in which case it'd be right.



That doesn't make sense either! 
Arrgh! Are you trying to drive me insane?





(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 17
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 11:19:17 AM   
Felix

 

Posts: 15692
Joined: 29/9/2005
From: Brighton

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Felix, while I can't speak for most people, I can say that personally if I find a word that is most ideally suited for a particular use and it happens to be a long one, then I don't see why I should have to use a reduced vocabulary to appease those who may feel I am being 'overly pretentious'. I'm not - I just like to use the right word for the right occasion.



Thats not the type of thing I'm talking about, its where people are obviously just spewing out a thesaurus just to make themselves appear more intelligent than they actually are that annoys me.

_____________________________

[This space for rent] -

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 18
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 11:27:19 AM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Felix


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Felix, while I can't speak for most people, I can say that personally if I find a word that is most ideally suited for a particular use and it happens to be a long one, then I don't see why I should have to use a reduced vocabulary to appease those who may feel I am being 'overly pretentious'. I'm not - I just like to use the right word for the right occasion.



Thats not the type of thing I'm talking about, its where people are obviously just spewing out a thesaurus just to make themselves appear more intelligent than they actually are that annoys me.


Indubitably

_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to Felix)
Post #: 19
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 1:41:31 PM   
Acho


Posts: 3904
Joined: 3/10/2005
From: Dublin, Co. Ireland
quote:

ORIGINAL: Incanus
One might say, "are you so dumb, to not understand an abbreviated word?" A nasty example is "through". Th- and -r- are necessary, especially th- since it cannot be duplicated by a shorter form, unless we began to use the Greek alphabet, which has the letter Č (/theta/) to depict that sound. But -ough instead of a simple -u? The mute -gh represent a phonetic value, which elongates the sound of -ou-. But the American form thru is still not a terrible solution.


Eddie Izzard is of the same view!

Click
 
(From 1:00 onwards, although watch from the start to get one of the references!)

I think it's an interesting notion that if we were to ignore the current ‘rules’ of grammar and spelling, that the replacement txt speak would end up developing its own set of rules and norms. One can either respond to that with a wry smile and think “Oh, the irony”, yet still refuse to engage with it. Or decide to accept that anything that allows us to communicate (be understood) and abides by some sort of code, may be considered a language.

Which is why I don't accept "l33t speak" as a language, as it's fundamentally exclusionary.

_____________________________



(in reply to Incanus)
Post #: 20
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 1:48:23 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: kathryn2

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

Could be an ellipsis: discounts on "hundreds of holiday's prices", in which case it'd be right.



That doesn't make sense either! 
Arrgh! Are you trying to drive me insane?



Sure it does. It's the prices of the holiday that are on discount, hence "holiday's prices". Maybe "holidays' prices" if you want more than one holiday...


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to kathryn2)
Post #: 21
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 1:49:41 PM   
Jim


Posts: 1244
Joined: 30/9/2005
Would it not always be holidays (plural)?

You can't say hundreds of holiday.


_____________________________

"Oh shit, swamp leeches! Everybody! Check for swamp leeches and pull them off! ...nobody else got hit? I'm the only one? What's the deal?"

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 22
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:01:40 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
True. Well spotted! Unless 'hundreds' is a singular group, like 'none'. That is another pet peeve of mine: "None of them are helping me" should actually be "none of them is helping me". Even though it sounds odd.

_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to Jim)
Post #: 23
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:07:43 PM   
Jim


Posts: 1244
Joined: 30/9/2005
I would've said 'none of them are...'




_____________________________

"Oh shit, swamp leeches! Everybody! Check for swamp leeches and pull them off! ...nobody else got hit? I'm the only one? What's the deal?"

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 24
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:12:37 PM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

True. Well spotted! Unless 'hundreds' is a singular group, like 'none'. That is another pet peeve of mine: "None of them are helping me" should actually be "none of them is helping me". Even though it sounds odd.


That's not right. There is no standard rule on collective nouns.

_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 25
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:36:35 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20116
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
See, we're all students here! 

OK grammarians, here's a couple of queries:

1. "Different to...", or "different from..."?
2. Practise/practice. Which is used, and when?

I can never get them right.


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to Kilo_T_Mortal)
Post #: 26
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:53:59 PM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
The government is evil
They are evil

_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 27
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 2:56:23 PM   
SadFace

 

Posts: 1816
Joined: 1/1/2008
From: Derbyshire / Leicester
'None' means 'not one', therefore, 'none of them is...' is correct as 'not one of them are' doesn't make sense.

_____________________________

Tobias, you blowhard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawlinson

That's the most wrong I've ever seen someone be on this forum. And both Gimli and Elab post here.

(in reply to Kilo_T_Mortal)
Post #: 28
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 3:14:09 PM   
Kilo_T_Mortal


Posts: 13531
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadFace

'None' means 'not one',


Does not. 

_____________________________

he's ruining my buestiful threat!

"She must have known about all this before she let that grinning loon put his space-cock anywhere near her?"
horribleives

(in reply to SadFace)
Post #: 29
RE: Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. - 19/11/2008 3:26:49 PM   
Incanus


Posts: 16000
Joined: 23/7/2008
From: Winterfell
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kilo_T_Mortal

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

True. Well spotted! Unless 'hundreds' is a singular group, like 'none'. That is another pet peeve of mine: "None of them are helping me" should actually be "none of them is helping me". Even though it sounds odd.



That's not right. There is no standard rule on collective nouns.



Actually, homer is correct and Kilo is correct as well. Homer's example contains no collective noun. None is a pronoun in singular (no+one) so it is correct to have it followed by a verb in singular. It is exactly the same as saying "Not (a single) one of them is helping me."

And Kilo is correct to say that there is no standard rule on collective nouns. A group of Union representatives is / are here to discuss with the manager. The verb may either have group or representatives as its true subject, though its seeming subject is the entire phrase a group of Union representatives. Such collective nouns acting to describe a part / portion of a greater sum, would take singular, but if one considers each individual within that part separately, then it's plural. So, both forms are correct, depending on the speaker's intention.

It just goes to show that our mind can take a look at the same thing in more than one ways. And it allows one to imply that a) this group is of one mind, therefore they act as one and bear the responsibility of their actions as one, or b) this group comprises separate individuals, each having a separate voice, each not bearing the same portion of responsibility. The first regards the anonymous individual as part of a homogeneous mass, the second as an active subject, who simply forms part of a greater sum.

< Message edited by Incanus -- 19/11/2008 3:46:48 PM >


_____________________________

WINTER IS COMING

T h e 2 4 t h F r a m e . c o . u k

Cuiva Olorin
Narendur.
Tira nottolya
Tulta tuolya.
An mauya mahtie
Ter oiomornie
Ter ondicilyar
Mettanna.
Nurunna!

(in reply to Kilo_T_Mortal)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [On Another Note...] >> Off Topic >> Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar. Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


 
Movie News  |  Empire Blog  |  Movie Reviews  |  Future Films  |  Features  |  Video Interviews  |  Image Gallery  |  Competitions  |  Forum  |  Magazine  |  Resources
 
Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.422