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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 3:50:52 PM   
BigKovacs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry Of Arabia
... and as a guess is subject to being completely dismissed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs
God has to be proven to exist before claims can be made on its input in the universe. Seeing as no one has managed that it can be dismissed out of hand.


Which would be pointless, as there is no evidence of anything else either, at all. There is no better or worse argument. You can simply dismiss it of course (as indeed I would be inclined to do), but doing so in this instance does little other than to merely demonstrate a certain prejudicial stance. There is no proof of anything when it comes to the principle start of the Universe, unlike evolution etc.

quote:


Also 'goddidit' is borderig on the absurd, the word God be interchanged with literally anything, Zeus, Cthulu, Katie Price, whatever.


'God' is just a word obviously, the point was more to do with what it represents.





There are theories that the universe has always existed, negating the need for a creator, this will most likely change over time but it still beats and notion of a first cause god.

And dismissing something's existence becouse of lack of proof isn't prejudice, it's logical.

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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 3:53:25 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

There are theories that the universe has always existed, negating the need for a creator, this will most likely change over time but it still beats and notion of a first cause god.



Where's the proof though?

Edit: The notion of an infinite universe that somehow had no beginning and will have no end is almost as difficult to stomach as some supreme being.

< Message edited by superdan -- 7/7/2012 3:55:56 PM >

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Post #: 182
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 3:57:55 PM   
Deviation


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Isn't this all irrelevant for some Christians (dunno about Muslims or Jews) though? Somebody like Rowan Williams will say that the idea of creation is not a theory like the scientific ones and cosidering it so is undermining it and confusing what it is, ie, not an alternative to those scientific ones but another thing in its entirity.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 7/7/2012 4:24:18 PM >


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Post #: 183
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 4:23:10 PM   
BigKovacs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

There are theories that the universe has always existed, negating the need for a creator, this will most likely change over time but it still beats and notion of a first cause god.



Where's the proof though?

Edit: The notion of an infinite universe that somehow had no beginning and will have no end is almost as difficult to stomach as some supreme being.


It's a theory so it's based on some facts that we already know, even if it is pretty hat stand.

And Lol, true. It's a bastard to comprehend.

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Post #: 184
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 4:44:54 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs


quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigKovacs

There are theories that the universe has always existed, negating the need for a creator, this will most likely change over time but it still beats and notion of a first cause god.



Where's the proof though?

Edit: The notion of an infinite universe that somehow had no beginning and will have no end is almost as difficult to stomach as some supreme being.


It's a theory so it's based on some facts that we already know, even if it is pretty hat stand.


I thought it was a by-product of certain models, or hypotheticals, to do with inflation rather than a fully-formed theory. I may well be wrong though.

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Post #: 185
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 5:04:17 PM   
sharkboy


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Personally I prefer Douglas Adams' theory as proposed in Restaurant At The End Of The Universe:

quote:

There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.


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Post #: 186
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 5:18:27 PM   
Spaldron


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The answer to this thread is 42.

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Post #: 187
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 5:21:57 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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Post #: 188
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 6:35:46 PM   
homersimpson_esq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

Where do these hardline clerics stand on unnecessary apostrophes?


Thank GOD someone mentioned this. I was dying here.


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Post #: 189
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 6:55:55 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

Where do these hardline clerics stand on unnecessary apostrophes?


Thank GOD someone mentioned this. I was dying here.


There, they're, their...

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Post #: 190
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 7:05:44 PM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

Where do these hardline clerics stand on unnecessary apostrophes?


Thank GOD someone mentioned this. I was dying here.


There, they're, their...


Too, to, two...

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Post #: 191
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 7:08:27 PM   
Skiba


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One, won,

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Post #: 192
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 7:11:28 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skiba

One, won,

God would not approve.

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Post #: 193
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 7/7/2012 7:18:16 PM   
Skiba


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Post #: 194
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:15:16 AM   
homersimpson_esq


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What really bakes my noggin is the whole infinite, beginning, beyond the universe, type thoughts. So The Big Bang started everything. But, like, what was before that? I mean, really, that's a mindfuck. The idea that there was nothing. Not "a vast empty space full of nothing", but actually nothing. Just, no concept of time or space or existence or anything, just...nothing. And then, suddenly, everything. How did the everything happen? It's just.... O_o

And then, once we accept that things exist, and that the universe is expanding, the whole "beyond the edge of the universe" thing. What's beyond the universe? It's that nothing again. Not "emptiness", but nothing. Literally nothing. I really struggle with that idea of a finite universe. Because to have boundaries it implies something else is out there. Yet the very idea that the universe is EVERYTHING means there cannot be anything else out there. Because this is it.

This is an interesting webpage about the big bang theory - http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ What is interesting is where the knowledge breaks down. So many unknowns, uncertainties.

What I dislike is the idea that people take away that God is the bearded guy. That he's something knowable, something comprehendable. He isn't. And I say "he" just because saying "it" seems wrong. There's a temptation to take a very simplistic view, a reductive argument, at something that is the most complex thing of all.


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Post #: 195
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 3:32:04 AM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
From: out of nowhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

What really bakes my noggin is the whole infinite, beginning, beyond the universe, type thoughts. So The Big Bang started everything. But, like, what was before that? I mean, really, that's a mindfuck. The idea that there was nothing. Not "a vast empty space full of nothing", but actually nothing. Just, no concept of time or space or existence or anything, just...nothing. And then, suddenly, everything. How did the everything happen? It's just.... O_o

And then, once we accept that things exist, and that the universe is expanding, the whole "beyond the edge of the universe" thing. What's beyond the universe? It's that nothing again. Not "emptiness", but nothing. Literally nothing. I really struggle with that idea of a finite universe. Because to have boundaries it implies something else is out there. Yet the very idea that the universe is EVERYTHING means there cannot be anything else out there. Because this is it.

This is an interesting webpage about the big bang theory - http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ What is interesting is where the knowledge breaks down. So many unknowns, uncertainties.

What I dislike is the idea that people take away that God is the bearded guy. That he's something knowable, something comprehendable. He isn't. And I say "he" just because saying "it" seems wrong. There's a temptation to take a very simplistic view, a reductive argument, at something that is the most complex thing of all.


There being no evidence for God's existence does not mean he's unknowable, it means only that there's no evidence for his existence. Him being 'beyond knowledge' or something similar is merely a theory for which there's no supporting evidence other than an absence of knowledge about his existence.

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Post #: 196
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 10:17:19 AM   
DancingClown


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Homer summed it up perfectly for me. The notion that there was nothing before the big bang is impossible to grasp, being that 'nothing' or even 'oblivion' are still concepts and you still can't have 'nothing' without some actuality for the 'nothing' to exist in itself. It's a massive contradiction.

Think about it too long and my brain starts weeing.

< Message edited by DancingClown -- 8/7/2012 10:18:27 AM >


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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 10:22:36 AM   
sanchia


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Isn't the theory that this Universe is just one of many which have existed in that it is in a permanent state of expansion and compression? The Universe expands from the Big Bang and then at a certain point it contracts back to a single point of highly compressed matter and then expands again in an eternal cycle. (It appears this was the theory put forward by Roger Penrose).

< Message edited by sanchia -- 8/7/2012 10:26:07 AM >


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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 10:28:30 AM   
DancingClown


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Post #: 199
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 11:06:33 AM   
Rebenectomy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Isn't the theory that this Universe is just one of many which have existed in that it is in a permanent state of expansion and compression? The Universe expands from the Big Bang and then at a certain point it contracts back to a single point of highly compressed matter and then expands again in an eternal cycle. (It appears this was the theory put forward by Roger Penrose).


Like God's diaphragm? Are we God?


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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 11:59:00 AM   
sanchia


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I was going to create a religion at one point.

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Post #: 201
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:11:20 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Isn't the theory that this Universe is just one of many which have existed in that it is in a permanent state of expansion and compression? The Universe expands from the Big Bang and then at a certain point it contracts back to a single point of highly compressed matter and then expands again in an eternal cycle. (It appears this was the theory put forward by Roger Penrose).

As I understand it, the most popular theory is known as the 'heat death' of the universe which involves constant expansion until all of the energy has been used up. Galaxies drift further and further apart until they are alone in the observable universe, i.e. you can't see any others. This would take trillions of years and the universe today is still relatively young in this model.

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RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:28:41 PM   
Rinc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Homer summed it up perfectly for me. The notion that there was nothing before the big bang is impossible to grasp, being that 'nothing' or even 'oblivion' are still concepts and you still can't have 'nothing' without some actuality for the 'nothing' to exist in itself. It's a massive contradiction.

Think about it too long and my brain starts weeing.


I'm an athiest but I just find it too hard to comprehend too. I just cannot get it roudn my head that there was nothing before the big bang. I mean there must have been something surely? And I just don't understand how there can be an edge of space. If the universe is expanding then that must mean there's something beyond it? I've heard theories that the universe is never ending and if you went to the edge of it you'd just end up back on the other side or something like that. Does. Not. Compute.

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Post #: 203
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:41:15 PM   
sanchia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

I've heard theories that the universe is never ending and if you went to the edge of it you'd just end up back on the other side or something like that. Does. Not. Compute.


Was that Einstein's Quantum Loop thingy?

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Post #: 204
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:43:43 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8321
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

Isn't the theory that this Universe is just one of many which have existed in that it is in a permanent state of expansion and compression? The Universe expands from the Big Bang and then at a certain point it contracts back to a single point of highly compressed matter and then expands again in an eternal cycle. (It appears this was the theory put forward by Roger Penrose).

As I understand it, the most popular theory is known as the 'heat death' of the universe which involves constant expansion until all of the energy has been used up. Galaxies drift further and further apart until they are alone in the observable universe, i.e. you can't see any others. This would take trillions of years and the universe today is still relatively young in this model.


I think that's actually one of the things that the Higgs (possible) discovery may end up shedding some light on. Understanding the properties of mass helps study entropy, or something.

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Post #: 205
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 12:44:25 PM   
Rinc


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Something like that. No matter what I read on the subject, none of it makes any more sense to me. And I like to think I'm an intelligent guy, but this is something that is beyond my comprehension.

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Post #: 206
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 1:00:50 PM   
Lazarus munkey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

Something like that. No matter what I read on the subject, none of it makes any more sense to me. And I like to think I'm an intelligent guy, but this is something that is beyond my comprehension.

The key to begin getting your head around it is to appreciate that matter does not exist in space and time, more that space, time, energy and matter are all part of the same thing and are inextricably linked as opposed to separate entities.
The universe is finite but boundless, which is to say it is not infinite but there's no edge to reach.
Imagine travelling the surface of the Earth. Assuming you can cross oceans and mountains, you would travel forever, theoretically as the surface of the Earth is finite but boundless. The key is trying to imagine the same idea with an extra dimension. It can be demonstrated mathematically but can't be drawn.

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Post #: 207
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 1:20:23 PM   
Skiba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc

Something like that. No matter what I read on the subject, none of it makes any more sense to me. And I like to think I'm an intelligent guy, but this is something that is beyond my comprehension.

The key to begin getting your head around it is to appreciate that matter does not exist in space and time, more that space, time, energy and matter are all part of the same thing and are inextricably linked as opposed to separate entities.
The universe is finite but boundless, which is to say it is not infinite but there's no edge to reach.
Imagine travelling the surface of the Earth. Assuming you can cross oceans and mountains, you would travel forever, theoretically as the surface of the Earth is finite but boundless. The key is trying to imagine the same idea with an extra dimension. It can be demonstrated mathematically but can't be drawn.

This I like the sound of...still mindblowing but a little easier on the noggin!

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Post #: 208
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 1:25:34 PM   
superdan


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Though if it is expanding (as it appears to be), presumably there must be something it is expanding into

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Post #: 209
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 8/7/2012 1:40:54 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

Though if it is expanding (as it appears to be), presumably there must be something it is expanding into

No, because there's nothing there. No space to move into, no time to exist in. All of reality is within the universe. Into has no meaning.

This book is a great starting point to understanding stuff like this as it's pretty easy to follow.
Clicky

< Message edited by Lazarus munkey -- 8/7/2012 1:59:44 PM >


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