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RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teaching Row.

 
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RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 11:52:00 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54579
Joined: 1/10/2005
To an extent you're right at the last part - we had extensive discussions on the evidence for this when I was doing my history degree - how much we could read into people's minds when we were also aware of what happened if they didn't go with the status quo, particularly heading into the 17th century, and how much was a modern imposition - after all, we can see quite clearly how con artists pay lip service to rip off the devout on a regular basis, hence US TV evangelist corruption is almost a cliche.

I just don't see it as a truism that can be trotted out everytime the subject of religion comes up. It's as easy to think that Brunelleschi's work on his Dome was entirely inspired by the desire to solve the engineering problem - maths and engineering solutions are an end in of themselves. Have you never felt the nice feeling inside when you work through a complex equation and everything else falls into place?

Alhough you're absolutely right in terms of resources and financing.

< Message edited by elab49 -- 6/7/2012 11:54:02 AM >


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Post #: 91
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 12:02:52 PM   
Rebenectomy


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If you look at the motivation in building many religious structures though it had as much to do with control and expression of power than glorification of the deity. Build a huge, domineering cathedral and the plebs are reminded daily that they are being watched. In times of warfare or plague, these buildings are a magnet for people who have nowhere else to go - they played the part of castles and keeps as much as they did places of worship. I'm not saying they aren't remarkable examples of art and design, but they are also reminders of wealth and man power being directed into maintaining the status quo. If we had no religion or a different kind of religion, these structures still would have been built, just for different reasons.

< Message edited by Rebenectomy -- 6/7/2012 12:03:04 PM >


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Post #: 92
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 12:11:40 PM   
Flatulent_Bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy
or a different kind of religion,

This isn't about types of religion is it? Just religion as a general concept.

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Post #: 93
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 12:42:05 PM   
Rebenectomy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy
or a different kind of religion,

This isn't about types of religion is it? Just religion as a general concept.



quote:

If we had no religion or a different kind of religion, these structures still would have been built, just for different reasons.




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Post #: 94
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 2:20:23 PM   
The Big Guy


Posts: 47
Joined: 29/12/2011
Interestingly, higher education began under the instruction of the Church. The very establishments that have allowed the extended consideration of who we are and where we are was started by the institution that that education now questions.

If Christianity was based on something where greater knowledge lead to greater doubt in the religion itself, it seems unlikely that it would create establishments for the better understanding of the world.

Perhaps there has been a gross misunderstanding of what exactly Christianity is, not only by the indefinable group of people who consider themselves 'atheists', but also by many Christians themselves.

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Post #: 95
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 2:32:06 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54579
Joined: 1/10/2005
But almost everything began under the church (in the western world - remember, this is a very western-centric discussion) because of the extent to which it controlled every aspect of people's lives. People without money or outside the church didn't have the time to be educated because there was no concept of spare time either.

And many branches of education only developed in partial conflict to the church (astronomy being the perfect example) as the universities grew up a bit and specialties developed for the sake of themselves rather than the standard education in the arts - the flowering of the renaissance, the arts and the sciences, was by specific reference back to classical eras before the birth of Christ.

I'd adjust your assertion slightly,  and it's what the Enlightenment was for many. The time for education and developing intellect simply led to the questions about the superstitions people lived by because people began to realise how things actually worked. You don't need to have a god for the sun to come up if you know the mechanisms of how the system works. And I don't think there is much argument that many of the sciences that tried to explain these things have been hindered by the church. Even Newton had odd ideas about the why because of his particular beliefs and it prevented him from taking the steps to openly view the possibilities in his work, leading to the whole clockmaker argument with Liebniz, who wasn't quite so similarly hindered.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 96
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:38:08 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

You don't think it's a problem that fundamentalist christian groups (many based in the US) have put pressure on the National Trust to include this as part of the exhibit? We've already had to put up with campaigns over here to get the Ulster Museum to run creationist exhibitions along side evolution and other natural history and science features. I have serious issues with this, especially as the Causeway centre will be used for educational school trips.


No I don't think it is. As it says in the NT's press release, "We reflect, in a small part of the exhibition, that the Causeway played a role in the historic debate about the formation of the earth, and that for some people this debate continues today", which I think is a healthy thing to be discussing myself. As they go on to say, "The National Trust fully supports the scientific explanation for the creation of the stones 60 million years ago", so I don't think there is any confusion as to which of the two theories is the one being encouraged by the visitors centre.

The article that you linked doesn't seem to mention US christian groups in direct reference to this issue.

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Post #: 97
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:40:07 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3814
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

You don't think it's a problem that fundamentalist christian groups (many based in the US) have put pressure on the National Trust to include this as part of the exhibit? We've already had to put up with campaigns over here to get the Ulster Museum to run creationist exhibitions along side evolution and other natural history and science features. I have serious issues with this, especially as the Causeway centre will be used for educational school trips.


No I don't think it is. As it says in the NT's press release, "We reflect, in a small part of the exhibition, that the Causeway played a role in the historic debate about the formation of the earth, and that for some people this debate continues today", which I think is a healthy thing to be discussing myself. As they go on to say, "The National Trust fully supports the scientific explanation for the creation of the stones 60 million years ago", so I don't think there is any confusion as to which of the two theories is the one being encouraged by the visitors centre.

The article that you linked doesn't seem to mention US christian groups in direct reference to this issue.



Aka the insane.

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Post #: 98
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:44:10 PM   
adambatman82

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.

I admire people in institutions who believe they are Napoleon in spite of evidence proving otherwise.


I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?

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Post #: 99
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:51:49 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54579
Joined: 1/10/2005
There is a frightening hysteria and extremist take from some of them in terms of the way they demand the right to impose on others - I'd emphasise the 'some' though.

Was it a Dawkins show when the leader of one of those big evangelical churches in the US went completely nuts going on about him calling his children monkeys?


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 100
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:51:57 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

You don't think it's a problem that fundamentalist christian groups (many based in the US) have put pressure on the National Trust to include this as part of the exhibit? We've already had to put up with campaigns over here to get the Ulster Museum to run creationist exhibitions along side evolution and other natural history and science features. I have serious issues with this, especially as the Causeway centre will be used for educational school trips.


No I don't think it is. As it says in the NT's press release, "We reflect, in a small part of the exhibition, that the Causeway played a role in the historic debate about the formation of the earth, and that for some people this debate continues today", which I think is a healthy thing to be discussing myself. As they go on to say, "The National Trust fully supports the scientific explanation for the creation of the stones 60 million years ago", so I don't think there is any confusion as to which of the two theories is the one being encouraged by the visitors centre.

The article that you linked doesn't seem to mention US christian groups in direct reference to this issue.



Aka the insane.


It's interesting that a whole bunch of dissenters align religion with mental illness, which I actually find to be a little harsh. I can't help but feel such bland tarring is probably putting off those of us that don't feel that way from contributing to this thread too, lest thee be declared bonkers!

It's a shame too, because there are a bunch of posters on here that do hold those beliefs, and it'd be interesting to read their thoughts on the subject.

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Post #: 101
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:54:31 PM   
adambatman82

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

There is a frightening hysteria and extremist take from some of them in terms of the way they demand the right to impose on others - I'd emphasise the 'some' though.


There is, but like you say not all religious folk are the same. I do think there's a tendency to jump in with the hysterical from the counter-argument too, as per some of the comments in this here thread.

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Post #: 102
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:55:21 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8229
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.

I admire people in institutions who believe they are Napoleon in spite of evidence proving otherwise.


I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?


Believing an invisible all-powerful sky-wizard created the earth and everything in it (including fossils - PRANKSTER GOD) in a week roughly 6-10k years ago, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, is a bit insane

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Post #: 103
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 3:59:34 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?


Believing an invisible all-powerful sky-wizard created the earth and everything in it (including fossils - PRANKSTER GOD) in a week roughly 6-10k years ago, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, is a bit insane


Well, when you put it like that....

But seriously though, I was actually more confused by LM's wording: I thought it was a joke but was confused by the comparison being made.

< Message edited by adambatman82 -- 6/7/2012 4:00:21 PM >

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Post #: 104
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 4:05:28 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3814
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

You don't think it's a problem that fundamentalist christian groups (many based in the US) have put pressure on the National Trust to include this as part of the exhibit? We've already had to put up with campaigns over here to get the Ulster Museum to run creationist exhibitions along side evolution and other natural history and science features. I have serious issues with this, especially as the Causeway centre will be used for educational school trips.


No I don't think it is. As it says in the NT's press release, "We reflect, in a small part of the exhibition, that the Causeway played a role in the historic debate about the formation of the earth, and that for some people this debate continues today", which I think is a healthy thing to be discussing myself. As they go on to say, "The National Trust fully supports the scientific explanation for the creation of the stones 60 million years ago", so I don't think there is any confusion as to which of the two theories is the one being encouraged by the visitors centre.

The article that you linked doesn't seem to mention US christian groups in direct reference to this issue.



Aka the insane.


It's interesting that a whole bunch of dissenters align religion with mental illness, which I actually find to be a little harsh. I can't help but feel such bland tarring is probably putting off those of us that don't feel that way from contributing to this thread too, lest thee be declared bonkers!

It's a shame too, because there are a bunch of posters on here that do hold those beliefs, and it'd be interesting to read their thoughts on the subject.


But it's the whole issue of rejecting evidence just because it goes against your particular world view; if someone came along and argued with the same conviction that the earth was hollow or flat he'd be mocked mercilessly but osmehow when some people mention religous belief it's a sort of get out of jail free card.
Not only that but it's the narcissism, the universe is ful of amazing wonders; black holes, nebulae, quazars, galaxies and the man that created all that and much more we can barely comprehend is your (your as in the people in question) bbf just because of a particular set of beliefs. Oh yeah and after creating all that wonder out there he'd prefer if you didn't do very much on a sunday and laid off the shell fish.

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Post #: 105
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 4:19:39 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54579
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

There is a frightening hysteria and extremist take from some of them in terms of the way they demand the right to impose on others - I'd emphasise the 'some' though.


There is, but like you say not all religious folk are the same. I do think there's a tendency to jump in with the hysterical from the counter-argument too, as per some of the comments in this here thread.


I wouldn't even put this type in with all religious folk - it seems to be more towards certain born-again/evangelical communities that the extremism crops up.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 106
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 4:28:07 PM   
Rebenectomy


Posts: 5629
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From: 10-0-11-0-0 by 0-2

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


The article that you linked doesn't seem to mention US christian groups in direct reference to this issue.



It mentions the Caleb Foundation - they have a hell of a lot of links with Christian fundamentalist groups in the US.

The size of the creationist section of the exhibition is not really the issue, it's the fact that this group actively lobbied the NT to ensure this happened. And as a result the Caleb foundation are promoting this as the NT recognising the legitimacy of their beliefs and I have little doubt that they will ride with this. They already command the attention (and in some cases membership) of some prominent MLAs and media people in NI, who have raised money for this and similar projects on the understanding that Creationism features. It's an appalling abuse of powers from the elected reps and is shocking to see that a group like the NT would cave to such pressure.

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Post #: 107
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 4:41:16 PM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6285
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
Also, the NT's statement is just a little bit misleading. Yes, the geology of the area is explained scientifically, and in some depth too. That's not under debate, nor is their assertion that it is the theory to which they subscribe. Even the section in question, which is a sequence of discussions between holders of opposing scientific views on how the causeway came into being, is pretty benign. What is sticking in people's craws, and very justifiably IMO, is the fact that they felt the need to hold up Young Earth Creationists as "continuing the debate", as if their take was somehow part of the scientific discussion, and not, say, better placed beside the legend of Finn Macool. And if, as NT say, they simply want to reflect "some people"'s opinion, why go with creationists? Why not the Hundu creation myth, or the Sikh or Buddhist?

For the record, it's not US-based fundamentists at work here, it's our own Caleb Foundation, who have been putting the "mental" into "fundamentalist" for some years now in Northern Ireland. They've been very vocal about their success in achieving a mention of creationism at the new Causeway centre, for which they've been campaigning for a few years now. Here's a story going back to 2010 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10289580 Now it may be that they've played the NT for fools and always intended this merely as a way to raise the profile of creationism, but given the confirmation from the NT that they've met with them on a couple of occasions, I don't think the NT came into this quite as blined as they'd have you believe. It's also worth noting on the page that I've linked to above, you;ll also find another link to the demands from Nelson McCausland, current Minister for Social Development, to include creationist beliefs in the revamped Ulster Museum. McCausland is only one of many high-profile DUP ministers and MLAs who are signed-up Caleb supporters, and who have actively petitioned for creationism across many areas of life in Northern Ireland. Now, you may think it coincidence that such a small faith group that has the backing of major DUP players managed to secure a mention of creationism in a building that was funded to the tune of over 18.5 million by the taxpayer. When you factor in the fact that DUP ministers are in charge of both public finance and tourism, that coincidence starts to look a bit less likely. To put it simply, this stinks.

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Post #: 108
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 5:35:48 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.

I admire people in institutions who believe they are Napoleon in spite of evidence proving otherwise.


I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?


Could you explain the difference?

I'm just pointing out that I see nothing to admire in anyone who rejects all evidence for no other reason than their parents telling them to (which is how it works in the vast majority of cases).

I would stop short of equating religious beliefs with mental illness but I do think that belief of this kind probably filled an evolutionary need that is, logically, no longer required.



< Message edited by Lazarus munkey -- 6/7/2012 5:45:05 PM >


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Post #: 109
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 8:47:27 PM   
adambatman82

 

Posts: 11156
Joined: 15/12/2005



quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?


Could you explain the difference?


What do you mean? The difference between faith and mental illness?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
I'm just pointing out that I see nothing to admire in anyone who rejects all evidence for no other reason than their parents telling them to (which is how it works in the vast majority of cases).


I admire the way in which someone can have faith in something that not only can't be explained, but can actively be proven otherwise. To maintain a faith in something where this is the case (i.e. the origins of the universe) is quite laudable from my perspective (I say this as someone who struggles to hold much faith in anything). I'm not talking about brainwashed zombies here, I'm talking about regular, intelligent people. I admire their ability to stick to their faith in spite of science telling them otherwise.

And I think you're over-generalising with the parental influence. I was brought up in a Catholic household, and went to Catholic school 'til 16. At that point I was given the opportunity to choose my own path (I chose to reject the church). The same thing happened with my missus, whose father I've already mentioned is a pretty full-on Christian. All of the Christians I know have gone through a stage of developing their own faith and have had little to no parental influence from a certain age. Thats the whole point of faith isn't it, that it's a very personal thing?

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Post #: 110
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:03:05 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8229
Joined: 31/7/2008
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
I admire the way in which someone can have faith in something that not only can't be explained, but can actively be proven otherwise. To maintain a faith in something where this is the case (i.e. the origins of the universe) is quite laudable from my perspective (I say this as someone who struggles to hold much faith in anything). I'm not talking about brainwashed zombies here, I'm talking about regular, intelligent people. I admire their ability to stick to their faith in spite of science telling them otherwise.


But isn't that just wilful ignorance? I think it annoys me more when intelligent, rational people doggedly stick to their faith (and I'm talking specifically about creationists here) even though they know it's a nonsensical position to take, because really they should know better. It's the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and repeatedly shouting "I can't hear you!", and immensely frustrating.

I am more inclined to have respect for people who accept science such as evolution even though it collides with their dogma. I don't think there's anything wrong with struggling to reconcile faith and science, and accepting some things are irreconcilable. God knows, Darwin was conflicted enough when he realised what he'd stumbled upon.

< Message edited by superdan -- 6/7/2012 9:26:17 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:05:40 PM   
Deviation


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Is creationism as accepted in the UK by the religious folk as it is in the States? I've seen very little of it here and this is fucking Malta, and rarely see it as being a problem in Italy as no creationist actions seem to be never in the news, any news, but they have bigger problems there.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 6/7/2012 9:08:40 PM >


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ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
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quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
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Post #: 112
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:18:40 PM   
jcthefirst


Posts: 4421
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: Bangor

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Faith innit. My father-in-law is a doctor of science, yet he's also a Christian, so in-spite of knowing that he's probably wrong his faith dictates that he still holds a candle for creationism. I know a bunch of reasonable, intelligent people that hold the same beliefs.

In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.



This is the situation I find myself in. I believe in God, yet I also 'believe' in evolution. The science-y part of my brain (not a big part) just can't let me believe that the universe is only 6000 years old or whatever. I have always viewed the Bible as the best the gospel writers at the time interpreted the word of God. God made the world in 7 days; ok, I have never taken that literally. It's just something some writer said a couple of thousand years ago because they didn't have the knowledge we have now. It's the writer of Genesis being a good writer. When people take it literally is where it gets problematic. 7 days could have been a bajillion years, and well...was.

I'm a little drunk right now, so this might not make a huge amount of sense, but I believe in the wondrous thing that is evolution, but I also choose to believe in something bigger than myself. I've never viewed religion and science as mutually exclusive.

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Post #: 113
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:25:01 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
From: out of nowhere
quote:

ORIGINAL: jcthefirst


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Faith innit. My father-in-law is a doctor of science, yet he's also a Christian, so in-spite of knowing that he's probably wrong his faith dictates that he still holds a candle for creationism. I know a bunch of reasonable, intelligent people that hold the same beliefs.

In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.



This is the situation I find myself in. I believe in God, yet I also 'believe' in evolution. The science-y part of my brain (not a big part) just can't let me believe that the universe is only 6000 years old or whatever. I have always viewed the Bible as the best the gospel writers at the time interpreted the word of God. God made the world in 7 days; ok, I have never taken that literally. It's just something some writer said a couple of thousand years ago because they didn't have the knowledge we have now. It's the writer of Genesis being a good writer. When people take it literally is where it gets problematic. 7 days could have been a bajillion years, and well...was.

I'm a little drunk right now, so this might not make a huge amount of sense, but I believe in the wondrous thing that is evolution, but I also choose to believe in something bigger than myself. I've never viewed religion and science as mutually exclusive.

You don't 'believe' evolution, you accept it.

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Post #: 114
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:27:36 PM   
jcthefirst


Posts: 4421
Joined: 6/10/2005
From: Bangor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcthefirst


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Faith innit. My father-in-law is a doctor of science, yet he's also a Christian, so in-spite of knowing that he's probably wrong his faith dictates that he still holds a candle for creationism. I know a bunch of reasonable, intelligent people that hold the same beliefs.

In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.



This is the situation I find myself in. I believe in God, yet I also 'believe' in evolution. The science-y part of my brain (not a big part) just can't let me believe that the universe is only 6000 years old or whatever. I have always viewed the Bible as the best the gospel writers at the time interpreted the word of God. God made the world in 7 days; ok, I have never taken that literally. It's just something some writer said a couple of thousand years ago because they didn't have the knowledge we have now. It's the writer of Genesis being a good writer. When people take it literally is where it gets problematic. 7 days could have been a bajillion years, and well...was.

I'm a little drunk right now, so this might not make a huge amount of sense, but I believe in the wondrous thing that is evolution, but I also choose to believe in something bigger than myself. I've never viewed religion and science as mutually exclusive.

You don't 'believe' evolution, you accept it.


Hence the inverted commas.

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Post #: 115
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:38:50 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
From: out of nowhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82




quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

I'm genuinely not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that people who have faith are insane?


Could you explain the difference?


What do you mean? The difference between faith and mental illness?

I believe they are different but I'm asking what the logical difference is between the examples the two of us provided is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey
I'm just pointing out that I see nothing to admire in anyone who rejects all evidence for no other reason than their parents telling them to (which is how it works in the vast majority of cases).


I admire the way in which someone can have faith in something that not only can't be explained, but can actively be proven otherwise. To maintain a faith in something where this is the case (i.e. the origins of the universe) is quite laudable from my perspective (I say this as someone who struggles to hold much faith in anything). I'm not talking about brainwashed zombies here, I'm talking about regular, intelligent people. I admire their ability to stick to their faith in spite of science telling them otherwise.

And I think you're over-generalising with the parental influence. I was brought up in a Catholic household, and went to Catholic school 'til 16. At that point I was given the opportunity to choose my own path (I chose to reject the church). The same thing happened with my missus, whose father I've already mentioned is a pretty full-on Christian. All of the Christians I know have gone through a stage of developing their own faith and have had little to no parental influence from a certain age. Thats the whole point of faith isn't it, that it's a very personal thing?

According to some quickly-Googled searches, around two-thirds of children raised in a particular faith retain that faith in adulthood so I don't believe this is an over-generalisation if it accounts for 66% of the people in question.I appreciate that your personal experience may be different but the parental aspect is a major factor.

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Post #: 116
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:40:07 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
From: out of nowhere

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcthefirst


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcthefirst


quote:

ORIGINAL: adambatman82

Faith innit. My father-in-law is a doctor of science, yet he's also a Christian, so in-spite of knowing that he's probably wrong his faith dictates that he still holds a candle for creationism. I know a bunch of reasonable, intelligent people that hold the same beliefs.

In a way I kind of admire their ability to stick to their laurels in spite of evidence proving otherwise.



This is the situation I find myself in. I believe in God, yet I also 'believe' in evolution. The science-y part of my brain (not a big part) just can't let me believe that the universe is only 6000 years old or whatever. I have always viewed the Bible as the best the gospel writers at the time interpreted the word of God. God made the world in 7 days; ok, I have never taken that literally. It's just something some writer said a couple of thousand years ago because they didn't have the knowledge we have now. It's the writer of Genesis being a good writer. When people take it literally is where it gets problematic. 7 days could have been a bajillion years, and well...was.

I'm a little drunk right now, so this might not make a huge amount of sense, but I believe in the wondrous thing that is evolution, but I also choose to believe in something bigger than myself. I've never viewed religion and science as mutually exclusive.

You don't 'believe' evolution, you accept it.


Hence the inverted commas.

Fair point.
However, I find it strange that you would use the word at all.

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Post #: 117
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 9:40:45 PM   
Lazarus munkey


Posts: 1650
Joined: 20/3/2006
From: out of nowhere
Loving this thread!!!

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Post #: 118
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 6/7/2012 10:48:17 PM   
BigKovacs


Posts: 3195
Joined: 6/4/2006
From: Textile Street.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rebenectomy

If you look at the motivation in building many religious structures though it had as much to do with control and expression of power than glorification of the deity. Build a huge, domineering cathedral and the plebs are reminded daily that they are being watched. In times of warfare or plague, these buildings are a magnet for people who have nowhere else to go - they played the part of castles and keeps as much as they did places of worship. I'm not saying they aren't remarkable examples of art and design, but they are also reminders of wealth and man power being directed into maintaining the status quo. If we had no religion or a different kind of religion, these structures still would have been built, just for different reasons.


Quote for truth. Also science and engineering are the reasons why those buildings are still standing.

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Post #: 119
RE: Creationism vs Evolution - 6/7/2012 10:50:07 PM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
Religion is funny. Makes me laugh anyway.

It's important for me in that I study medieval Scotland but it's something to understand rather than buy into. How can people buy into it? Medieval Europe, fair enough. Relatively little was known to relatively few people so whaddaya gonna do? Even then the monarchies and churches had near enough symbiotic relationships - the church as mechanism for control, for the time, was the ultimate driving machine. Now though... I mean seriously... In the "western" world with near total access to elementary education, with widespread access to university teaching and academic works, with the churches' power nearly divorced from actual governance... how can anyone with a willingness to engage even slightly with the world believe in ID? I can just about fathom people clinging to the remaining unknowns as reason enough - for them - to believe in a God. I don't see how anyone with a school education can be practicing religious person.

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