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RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 20/9/2008 10:39:36 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.

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Post #: 31
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 20/9/2008 10:48:16 PM   
TheManWithNoShame


Posts: 6767
Joined: 1/8/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Now you're being silly Wilbert. Yes religion has produced lots of bad things, but to say it has never produced anything good is just as naive a position to take as its polar opposite.


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Post #: 32
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 20/9/2008 10:49:59 PM   
Funkyrae


Posts: 20372
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just stick a pin in a map
I agree, religion, whether you're a fan of it or not, has unified people throughout the ages.  The organisation of it however, leaves a lot to be desired.

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Post #: 33
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 20/9/2008 11:01:52 PM   
TheManWithNoShame


Posts: 6767
Joined: 1/8/2006
Also Tech, Dawkins has never said that religion only produces fear, division and solely bad things. I just think he acknowledges and stresses that for every community given an internal sense of fraternity and connection due to religion, there is also division and hatred between communities with disparate beliefs. For every culture it has helped survive together and thrive beneficially, it has also destroyed with hatred and bigotry. Dawkins isn't as one sided as you portray him to be, and frankly, your strawmen characterisations of him and those who listen to what he says is getting very boring.

< Message edited by TheManWithNoShame -- 20/9/2008 11:03:58 PM >


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Post #: 34
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:09:31 AM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheManWithNoShame

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Now you're being silly Wilbert. Yes religion has produced lots of bad things, but to say it has never produced anything good is just as naive a position to take as its polar opposite.



Did I say religion has never produced anything good? No. I just asked Tech for an example of a huge influence for good in history. You should read posts more carefully.

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Post #: 35
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:12:06 AM   
Funkyrae


Posts: 20372
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just stick a pin in a map
How about bonding communities together and educating people into morals through folktale and allegory?  Since the very first time of communication there has been the need for a shared belief.  It's a necessity for any form of civilisation to function.

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Post #: 36
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:15:52 AM   
TheManWithNoShame


Posts: 6767
Joined: 1/8/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheManWithNoShame

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Now you're being silly Wilbert. Yes religion has produced lots of bad things, but to say it has never produced anything good is just as naive a position to take as its polar opposite.



Did I say religion has never produced anything good? No. I just asked Tech for an example of a huge influence for good in history. You should read posts more carefully.


By not providing one yourself you seemed as though you were incredulous that religion could do any good. If I need to read posts more carefully then you might need to make your thoughts a bit more clear.

Sorry anyway. I agree with your first part - Tech does sound ridiculous (not for what he thinks, but for his assumptions on what other people think).


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Post #: 37
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:21:14 AM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Funkyrae

How about bonding communities together and educating people into morals through folktale and allegory?  Since the very first time of communication there has been the need for a shared belief.  It's a necessity for any form of civilisation to function.


Well some religions force people to behave in certain ways because those people fear what a vengeful god will do to them. The folktales and allegories that you mention can be seen as methods of control just as much as they can seem like moral instruction.

Anyway, we're getting into the difference between organised religion and spiritual belief. Spiritual belief is fine by me. Organised religion; not so much.

A shared belief is necessary for a civilisation to function, I agree, but it doesn't have to be a shared religious belief.

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Post #: 38
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:24:25 AM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheManWithNoShame

By not providing one yourself you seemed as though you were incredulous that religion could do any good. If I need to read posts more carefully then you might need to make your thoughts a bit more clear.

Sorry anyway. I agree with your first part - Tech does sound ridiculous (not for what he thinks, but for his assumptions on what other people think).



I can understand how that might have come across.

I had no problem thinking of small contributions for good that religion has made. I had absolutely no problem thinking of examples of religion being a massive oppressive force.

I do find it difficult to think of religion making huge contributions for good in history.

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Post #: 39
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:26:05 AM   
Funkyrae


Posts: 20372
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Just stick a pin in a map
Yep, I hear you wholeheartedly.  There is nothing more perverse than the organisation of a religion to somebody's rules.  It is  a method of social control, everything from the regular meetings where it's frowned upon if you don't attend to dictating style and dress.  It has always been that way.  From the time of animal sacrifices to appease gods to today.  There are only two things any religion needs to have in order for it to be a success and those are guilt and fear.

There's more hypocrisy in organised religion than there is in the House of Commons.  Spirituality is entirely different.  Spirituality is far more positive!

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Post #: 40
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:25:37 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Well I'm a crazy person who believes in God (sometimes), we're all ridiculous.

From what I've read over the years the first agricultural cities were susteined and held together by religion (however primitive). Without that first religious spark mankind would still be small scattered tribes.

That's a huge contribution.

< Message edited by Tech_Noir -- 21/9/2008 12:28:25 PM >

(in reply to Wilbert)
Post #: 41
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 12:55:43 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Well I'm a crazy person who believes in God (sometimes), we're all ridiculous.

From what I've read over the years the first agricultural cities were susteined and held together by religion (however primitive). Without that first religious spark mankind would still be small scattered tribes.

That's a huge contribution.


You cannot possibly know that.

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Post #: 42
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 1:00:58 PM   
Woger


Posts: 3815
Joined: 30/9/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Well I'm a crazy person who believes in God (sometimes), we're all ridiculous.

From what I've read over the years the first agricultural cities were susteined and held together by religion (however primitive). Without that first religious spark mankind would still be small scattered tribes.

That's a huge contribution.


Could the same be said about slavery, that it helped ancient civilizations in engineering acheievements?

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Post #: 43
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 1:15:06 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Creationism should be taught in history.

Religion has had a huge influence on history (goof and bad - although I'm sure Dawkinites will claim it's only the latter).


Dawkinites?

You sound ridiculous at times, Tech.

Give us an example of a huge and good influence that religion has had on history.


Well I'm a crazy person who believes in God (sometimes), we're all ridiculous.

From what I've read over the years the first agricultural cities were susteined and held together by religion (however primitive). Without that first religious spark mankind would still be small scattered tribes.

That's a huge contribution.


You cannot possibly know that.


No, and I'm not an expert, but all the historical evidence from what I've read points that way.

What else would bring primitive tribes together? Bunch of them sitting together and  one day thinking lets make a city? They round up loads of people and hey presto, the first cities are born.

To make those early cities work hundreds/thousands of individuals had to have a specific roles (life-long roles). Money didn't exist and they couldn't enslave everyone. People had to have some sort of motivation.

Religion was that motivation.


(in reply to Wilbert)
Post #: 44
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 1:20:03 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

Could the same be said about slavery, that it helped ancient civilizations in engineering acheievements?


But the first towns and cities weren't populated by slaves, that came later.

The first towns and cities were held together through a religious unity.

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Post #: 45
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 2:09:38 PM   
sanchia


Posts: 18187
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Norwich
quote:


The first towns and cities were held together through a religious unity.


Was it religious unity or was it a matter of survival in that there was a recognition that there was a greater strength in numbers and religion came later? I gather you are looking at stone age society here?

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Post #: 46
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 2:54:29 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanchia

quote:


The first towns and cities were held together through a religious unity.


Was it religious unity or was it a matter of survival in that there was a recognition that there was a greater strength in numbers and religion came later? I gather you are looking at stone age society here?


Is survival enough of a motivation for primitive people to start and run something as complicated as a city?

Also, look at the world today, would people work for free (doing the same job all their life) just for the protection of society?

There has to be some sort of inner drive.

According to Joseph Campbell's Masks of God books (specifically Primitive Mythology) it was a religious zeal (if that's the right word) that gave the inhabitants of the first farming cities and pattern of life to follow.

God to them was the cycle of nature and that's what they followed.

They didn't create a city out of survivalist fear, it was a collective celebration of their God, by following the ritual acts of farming they were rewarded with food.

< Message edited by Tech_Noir -- 21/9/2008 3:09:06 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 3:46:17 PM   
Larry of Arabia

 

Posts: 7576
Joined: 28/2/2007
From: Turtle Island
Primitive people didn't make cities though, they made small colonies, which gradually expanded into villages, which expanded into towns, then into cities etc. They did this through the need of every individual. I don't know much about the topic, but I don't agree that religious tribes are responsible for the actions of every other tribe. There's more reasons for progress than just that, and I think they go farther back than organised religion.

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Post #: 48
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:14:55 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry of Arabia

Primitive people didn't make cities though, they made small colonies, which gradually expanded into villages, which expanded into towns, then into cities etc. They did this through the need of every individual.


Disagree. The individual came second to the collective. Our idea of individuality didn't exist back then, the focus was on the group and the focus of the group was on rituals so they'd be line with nature/God's laws.

Of course there's many other factors that played a part in the progression of civilisation over hundreds of thousands of years but to think religion played no big part is not fair or true.

Primitive men may not have made cities as we know them but they got the ball rolling and they did it out of a religious impetus.

Back to Willie's original point, religion did play a positive role in mankind's history and development. I think people these days are a little too eager to blanket ridicule all forms of religion throughout history as being bad.

< Message edited by Tech_Noir -- 21/9/2008 4:15:46 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:19:51 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry of Arabia

Primitive people didn't make cities though, they made small colonies, which gradually expanded into villages, which expanded into towns, then into cities etc. They did this through the need of every individual.


Disagree. The individual came second to the collective. Our idea of individuality didn't exist back then, the focus was on the group and the focus of the group was on rituals so they'd be line with nature/God's laws.

Of course there's many other factors that played a part in the progression of civilisation over hundreds of thousands of years but to think religion played no big part is not fair or true.

Primitive men may not have made cities as we know them but they got the ball rolling and they did it out of a religious impetus.

Back to Willie's original point, religion did play a positive role in mankind's history and development. I think people these days are a little too eager to blanket ridicule all forms of religion throughout history as being bad.


There is some truth in what you say Tech but you are making massive assumptions about what people thought and felt back then.

Also, you are as fervent about Campbell as anyone around here is about Dawkins. Does that make you a Campbellite?

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Post #: 50
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:24:37 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert

Also, you are as fervent about Campbell as anyone around here is about Dawkins. Does that make you a Campbellite?


I balance it out with my Saganism.

And I'm not making assumptions about what people thought and felt, this all is based on the evidence and theories from experts in the field. Unlike a certain evolutionary biologist who thinks he's an expert in the philosophies of all the worlds religions.

< Message edited by Tech_Noir -- 21/9/2008 4:28:01 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:28:34 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
I think the problem is that the bad of religion outweighs the good. For every Pope John Paul II(though he did have his flaws) or Mohammed, there is a Bin Laden, a Pope Urban II, or the Inquisition. Yes, religion did play a huge part in the shaping of history and the creation of nations, but becuase of that it shouldn't be kept alive even when it is not necessary becuase of this. This is a time of science and ethics and not religion(since Kant sort of made it clear that poeple can be moral without religion) in my opinion.

I am not discrediting God, but religion as it is, a collective and not something individual.

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quote:


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Post #: 52
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:38:00 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

This is a time of science and ethics and not religion(since Kant sort of made it clear that poeple can be moral without religion) in my opinion.



Why can't there be a new religion that incorporates science (not scientology)?

Religion changes with each civillisation but it never goes away. I don't believe it will ever go away. I'm sure in 3000AD when planet Earth is united there'll be a new religion in play.


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Post #: 53
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:42:15 PM   
Larry of Arabia

 

Posts: 7576
Joined: 28/2/2007
From: Turtle Island
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

Disagree. The individual came second to the collective. Our idea of individuality didn't exist back then, the focus was on the group and the focus of the group was on rituals so they'd be line with nature/God's laws.


That's not typical of every group though, the needs of the group were more likely to be for their own safety/protection/survival/whatever, than following rituals. The framework of group dynamics was already in place before religious thought.

quote:


Of course there's many other factors that played a part in the progression of civilisation over hundreds of thousands of years but to think religion played no big part is not fair or true.


It did play a big part, but to say society would be reduced to scattered tribes today without the religious 'spark' is an exaggeration. Secular groups functioned just as well.

quote:

Primitive men may not have made cities as we know them but they got the ball rolling and they did it out of a religious impetus.


I think the ball was already rolling, but religious impetus did contribute a great deal, I won't deny that.

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Post #: 54
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:48:25 PM   
Wilbert


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/10/2005
From: Dublin: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir
I'm sure in 3000AD when planet Earth is united there'll be a new religion in play.




I doubt it, Tech. The future is going to be a lot less Sci-Fi than you would like it to be, I reckon.

Look at the scepticism that greets any new religion nowadays. Most people think that Scientologists are nuts but their creation myths are as likely as any other religions.

Religion is dying out very, very slowly.

Look how little it means to people today compared to your parents generation. In general, it's influence on people's lives is on the wane.

Religion may have been a force that organised earlier societies but I think that all comes under the "They didn't know any better" heading.

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Post #: 55
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 4:54:46 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

This is a time of science and ethics and not religion(since Kant sort of made it clear that poeple can be moral without religion) in my opinion.



Why can't there be a new religion that incorporates science (not scientology)?

Religion changes with each civillisation but it never goes away. I don't believe it will ever go away. I'm sure in 3000AD when planet Earth is united there'll be a new religion in play.




Whether religion will live on it has to be seen, before there was nothing that could challenge the teachings of religion, now there is.

And why should there be a new one religion that incorporates science, what would it's use be? Poeple(well most of them) are rational creatures and can live without religion.

If there should be some spirituality, it should be personal, not a collective. God can exist today, but not with a set of rules about him or doctrines about him.



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
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Post #: 56
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 5:00:33 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Larry of Arabia

That's not typical of every group though, the needs of the group were more likely to be for their own safety/protection/survival/whatever, than following rituals.



Not typical of all but it's accepted by many as being the deciding factor of the first.The first agricultural civilisation, born out of simple religion and ritual in the near east was a success and thrived and so it was a way of life repeated elsewhere, and begun to have variations.

These first farmers had no one to fight against so protection/survival wouldn't have crossed their minds until they were invaded by Indo-Europeans (apperently thousands of years later).

It should also be noted that many of the oldest artifects found of early caveman were not only weapons and tools but religious shrines. That means religious thought pre-dated towns/cities by hundreds of thousands of years.


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Post #: 57
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 5:03:02 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


Religion is dying out very, very slowly.



I think it's changing.

Very, very slowly.

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Post #: 58
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 5:04:12 PM   
Tech_Noir

 

Posts: 20199
Joined: 12/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

And why should there be a new one religion that incorporates science, what would it's use be? Poeple(well most of them) are rational creatures and can live without religion.



The same thing it's always been used for.

To a cynic, control.

To a non-cynic, unity.

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 59
RE: Misunderstood Biologist Quits Over Creationism Teac... - 21/9/2008 5:04:44 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wilbert


Religion is dying out very, very slowly.



I think it's changing.

Very, very slowly.


No, actually, I think it's dying, and Wilbert gave the points why.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
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Post #: 60
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