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RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:20:00 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The Joker doesn't need to know Batman is Bruce. All he needed to note was that Batman went for her without thinking. In his mind he figures out that she is important to him.

In fact the whole Coleman Reese subplot is about the Joker no longer wishing to know who Batman is. It is pretty much established that Wayne wanted to save Rachel. Heck, Harvey wanted Batman to save Rachel.

This. He doesn't know. He also doesn't really care.

I think he knows (or at least suspects - Wayne employee Coleman Reese's threat to go public only confirming such suspicions) and still doesn't care! As he said in the comics once - that IS his real face!

(in reply to elab49)

Post #: 1171

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:25:19 PM

cerebusboy

Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The Joker doesn't need to know Batman is Bruce. All he needed to note was that Batman went for her without thinking. In his mind he figures out that she is important to him.

In fact the whole Coleman Reese subplot is about the Joker no longer wishing to know who Batman is. It is pretty much established that Wayne wanted to save Rachel. Heck, Harvey wanted Batman to save Rachel.

This. He doesn't know. He also doesn't really care.

I think he knows (or at least suspects - Wayne employee Coleman Reese's threat to go public only confirming such suspicions) and still doesn't care! As he said in the comics once - that IS his real face!

Woah, two Batman threads at once Chris, impressive!

comics alliance had a great article on the supposed truism of Bruce Wayne being the mask to Batman's 'real' face, will see if I can find it.

(in reply to chris kilby)

Post #: 1172

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:31:11 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

As for "plot holes", Batman would have reacted as he did if ANYONE had been thrown out of the window, and people are presupposing he had further need to kill/capture hostages. Joker has a plan, Dent wasn't there, Rachel was thrown out the window. You can claim it's more in keeping with his character to kill all the hostages, but I'd disagree. Joker has a plan (I know he says he doesn't but Bad guys lie!) .

Yeah, but the only reason The Joker was there in the first place was to get Harvey Dent. Woulda been a bit remiss of him not to have a bloody good look round after Bats went basejumping with his squeeze. And as my missus pointed out, that great big cupboard door jammed with a broom handle (or whatever it was) was a bit of a giveaway. It is undeniably a huge (arguably lazy) plot hole. More a gaping chasm, actually. Not as gaping as those cops down the sewers, mind...

Actually, I would say that The Dark Knight's plot holes are far more egregious/problematic than those of The Dark Knight Rises, although we have had four years to spot them all. And unlike a lot of the alleged "plot holes" in The Dark Knight Rises, the plot holes in The Dark Knight actually exist.

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1173

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:33:07 PM

cerebusboy

Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

As for "plot holes", Batman would have reacted as he did if ANYONE had been thrown out of the window, and people are presupposing he had further need to kill/capture hostages. Joker has a plan, Dent wasn't there, Rachel was thrown out the window. You can claim it's more in keeping with his character to kill all the hostages, but I'd disagree. Joker has a plan (I know he says he doesn't but Bad guys lie!) .

Yeah, but the only reason The Joker was there in the first place was to get Harvey Dent. Woulda been a bit remiss of him not to have a bloody good look round after Bats went basejumping with his squeeze. And as my missus pointed out, that great big cupboard door jammed with a broom handle (or whatever it was) was a bit of a giveaway. It is undeniably a huge (arguably lazy) plot hole. More a gaping chasm, actually. Not as gaping as those cops down the sewers, mind...

Actually, I would say that The Dark Knight's plot holes are far more egregious/problematic than those of The Dark Knight Rises, although we have had four years to spot them all. And unlike a lot of the alleged "plot holes" in The Dark Knight Rises, the plot holes in The Dark Knight actually exist.

Yes, but Joker says "for a while I thought you were Dent". It's plausible that he left the party satisfied that the guy jumping out in the batsuit was, or probably could be Dent.

(in reply to chris kilby)

Post #: 1174

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:36:33 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

Woah, two Batman threads at once Chris, impressive!

That's nuthin'. The other day you thought I was on the same thread twice at the same time!

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1175

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:38:13 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

As for "plot holes", Batman would have reacted as he did if ANYONE had been thrown out of the window, and people are presupposing he had further need to kill/capture hostages. Joker has a plan, Dent wasn't there, Rachel was thrown out the window. You can claim it's more in keeping with his character to kill all the hostages, but I'd disagree. Joker has a plan (I know he says he doesn't but Bad guys lie!) .

Yeah, but the only reason The Joker was there in the first place was to get Harvey Dent. Woulda been a bit remiss of him not to have a bloody good look round after Bats went basejumping with his squeeze. And as my missus pointed out, that great big cupboard door jammed with a broom handle (or whatever it was) was a bit of a giveaway. It is undeniably a huge (arguably lazy) plot hole. More a gaping chasm, actually. Not as gaping as those cops down the sewers, mind...

Actually, I would say that The Dark Knight's plot holes are far more egregious/problematic than those of The Dark Knight Rises, although we have had four years to spot them all. And unlike a lot of the alleged "plot holes" in The Dark Knight Rises, the plot holes in The Dark Knight actually exist.

Yes, but Joker says "for a while I thought you were Dent". It's plausible that he left the party satisfied that the guy jumping out in the batsuit was, or probably could be Dent.

Yeah, that's a good one. Never thought of that.

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1176

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:44:02 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

Well said dude. Except for the bit where you call Killing Joke overrated and praise Jeph Loeb

I didn't actually praise Loeb. I merely pointed out that The Long Halloween clearly inspired The Dark Knight - primarily Maroni and the idea that, Heisenberg-like, Batman's very existence has led to a power shift from traditional gangsters to freaks. I thought it was OK, but it still read like Miller's sloppy seconds. Most Batman comics do, which is why I don't read so many super hero comics these days. After Dark Knight/Watchmen, what was the point...?

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1177

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:48:04 PM

cerebusboy

Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

As for "plot holes", Batman would have reacted as he did if ANYONE had been thrown out of the window, and people are presupposing he had further need to kill/capture hostages. Joker has a plan, Dent wasn't there, Rachel was thrown out the window. You can claim it's more in keeping with his character to kill all the hostages, but I'd disagree. Joker has a plan (I know he says he doesn't but Bad guys lie!) .

Yeah, but the only reason The Joker was there in the first place was to get Harvey Dent. Woulda been a bit remiss of him not to have a bloody good look round after Bats went basejumping with his squeeze. And as my missus pointed out, that great big cupboard door jammed with a broom handle (or whatever it was) was a bit of a giveaway. It is undeniably a huge (arguably lazy) plot hole. More a gaping chasm, actually. Not as gaping as those cops down the sewers, mind...

Actually, I would say that The Dark Knight's plot holes are far more egregious/problematic than those of The Dark Knight Rises, although we have had four years to spot them all. And unlike a lot of the alleged "plot holes" in The Dark Knight Rises, the plot holes in The Dark Knight actually exist.

Yes, but Joker says "for a while I thought you were Dent". It's plausible that he left the party satisfied that the guy jumping out in the batsuit was, or probably could be Dent.

Yeah, that's a good one. Never thought of that.

Aside from which, it's obvious that the Joker is more preoccupied with Bats than he is anyone else. I can certainly see him having a "forget Dent, this is a whole new ball game" after tangling with Batman. I doubt Joker has anything like the grandiose plan he eventually implements at the party scene (especially if we assume he just wanted to find Dent to kill him)

(in reply to chris kilby)

Post #: 1178

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 1:54:24 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

'Realism', even assuming it is necessarily contrary to genre fiction, is a recent innovation, a literary cul-de-sac. To posit it as the only mechanism for serious themes is demonstrable nonsense.

Precisely my argument against Jimmy McGovern's criticism of the likes of Doctor Who. Actually, it's Clive Barker's argument: if you lazily dismiss all non-realistic, non-naturalistic fiction, you're invalidating a lot of the literary canon - Shakespeare, Dickens, all the ancient myths and legends which have inspired so much art, literature and movies in their own right, not least The Bible. He's also insulting a lot of his TV drama predecessors. Notably the defiantly non-naturalistic Dennis Potter. Maybe McGovern's never seen Pennies From Heaven or The Singing Detective. Or what I still consider THE Greatest TV Drama of All Time, Troy Kennedy Martin's Edge of Darkness, which beneath the contemporary nuclear thriller surface has some very funny, mystical ideas indeed.

I admire McGovern's work as well (even if it can be annoyingly didactic and on-the-nose), but he's talking out his realistic arse when he says silly things like that.

What is "realism," anyway? All drama is life with the boring bits left out. Soap operas, on the other hand, are life with extra boring bits added. In fact, the more drama aspires to "realism" the more it exposes how unreal it is. And I'm not just talking about bat-themed masked vigilantes - how come no-one in Eastenders watches TV, talks about the news, commutes to work or owns a washing machine...?

< Message edited by chris kilby -- 25/8/2012 2:11:08 PM >

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1179

RE: The Dark Knight - 25/8/2012 3:50:07 PM

chris kilby

Posts: 1189
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy

Woah, two Batman threads at once Chris, impressive!

Haven't you heard? I'm omnipresent. As well as omniscient. Although this is occasionally mistaken for pedantry...

(in reply to cerebusboy)

Post #: 1180

RE: The Dark Knight - 13/9/2012 3:51:48 AM

Emyr Thy King

Posts: 2153
Joined: 13/4/2006
From: The Grid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The Joker doesn't need to know Batman is Bruce. All he needed to note was that Batman went for her without thinking. In his mind he figures out that she is important to him.

In fact the whole Coleman Reese subplot is about the Joker no longer wishing to know who Batman is. It is pretty much established that Wayne wanted to save Rachel. Heck, Harvey wanted Batman to save Rachel.

Here's an interesting excerpt from the novelisation for TDK following the charity event in Bruce's penthouse:

The Joker looked back toward the penthouse as his getaway car sped away. He breathed hard, exhilarated even as a stream of blood ran down his face and tells the driver how the Batman saved Rachel and starts to wonder if they have a relationship or Batman does this with everyone and this can lead to his downfall. He smacked the back of the driver's seat. Driver: "What do we do about Dent?" The Joker: "I'm a man of my word."

TDK novel (click)

For anyone who's really eager, there's a book with the screenplay for the entire trilogy and it includs scenes that were cut/weren't filmed:

The Dark Knight Trilogy (click)

Actually, there's a good 'look inside' feature Amazon, it has a scene that was cut from BB where Bruce speaks to one of the villagers before ascending the mountain to the League of Shadows' lair.

< Message edited by Emyr Thy King -- 13/9/2012 12:27:08 PM >

_____________________________

"This whole imbroglio is epiphenomenal"...."demigogic faux egalitarianism" - Will Self

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 1181

A Blockbuster With Brains - 9/12/2012 7:21:38 PM

movienut707

Posts: 63
Joined: 19/10/2012

Chris Nolan's follow-up to the seminal Batman Begins, The Dark Knight is the most powerful portrait of the masked crusader to date, and Heath Ledger gives the single greatest performance of the past decade.

(in reply to Empire Admin)

Post #: 1182

Surely the greatest comic book movie ever made - 5/2/2013 8:54:11 PM

Mr Gittes

Posts: 443
Joined: 3/2/2013

Sure, it's not perfect but the word I'd use to describe the movie would be one that Empire used when writing about Ledger's performance; monumental. If Richard Donner's Superman is the Citizen Kane of superhero movies then The Dark Knight is The Godfather.

(in reply to Empire Admin)

Post #: 1183

The Dark Knight - 21/2/2013 3:03:30 PM

LukeTheFilmFan

Posts: 3
Joined: 21/2/2013

Its One Of The Greatest Comic Book Movies And Has One Of The Greatest Villains Of All Time

(in reply to Empire Admin)

Post #: 1184

Nolan's Masterpiece - 21/5/2013 4:49:24 PM

BlackjackMusk3teer

Posts: 5
Joined: 19/5/2013

Ledger's performance as clown-faced psychopath The Joker will be acknowledged as one of greatest villains of all time. With a blockbuster budget, all-star cast and breathtaking action, The Dark Knight succeeds in being the ultimate sequel to its impressive predecessor; Batman Begins.

(in reply to Empire Admin)

Post #: 1185