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RE: The Dark Knight

 
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RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 3:43:44 AM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

It is because it would suggest you thought The Godfather was that, a sympathy vote.


Sorry. That's old business already.

(That's from Duck Soup, BTW.)

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 1111
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 11:37:11 AM   
giggity

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 4/3/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

Anywho... The Dark Knight. Did I raise any issues about it earlier in my rather lengthy (and, I hoped, serious and thought-provoking yet light-hearted) review/essay that anyone would like to discuss on this Dark Knight Review thread? Anyone...?


Well, the first point I'd take issue with is the lack of flab. There's definitely flab. Always is with Nolan.

But the one single feature that I always remember, the first thing that always pops into my head is this: Nolan (and most of the film's fans) focus on how the film is bedded in reality. Not the cartoon world of Burton, but a hyper-stylised world in which we might all exist. And then, he gives us the worst cgi make-up for Two-Face at the end, that I thought I was watching shots from The Mummy. And The Mummy hasn't aged well. The moment that happened, BAM, the film lost me. Because everything in a film has to work within the framework that it has built for itself.


I agree that Nolan's films take a more serious take on the character who does fight in a bat-suit, but i've never found them to be very realistic, they're more realistic to previous Batman films and superhero films in general but it's still a film series which has Batman training with Ninja's, a man with half of his face burnt off going around murdering people, mid-air saves etc... It is still a comic book based film so it would without a doubt contain those qualities but approaching them in a more grounded way and showing why he choose to be Batman in a more organic way doesn't mean they are rejecting those heightened comic book aspects. They're just adapting them to this specific interpretation.

edit: I also would have preferred that Nolan used Prosthetics for Two Face, although his excuse for using CGI was that Make up just added to the face, whereas a burn is supposed to take away from the face, using CGI was the only way to get that effect. While I would have preferred make up it doesn't really take me out of the film.

< Message edited by giggity -- 21/8/2012 11:38:59 AM >

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Post #: 1112
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 11:41:29 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19038
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


I don't know. Maybe gangster and super-hero movies aren't the ideal place for such thought-provoking ideas after all...



If I may be so bold, and if you will permit me the chance to respond to you - why can't these genres be the place to present thought-provoking ideas?

Perhaps my question is too limiting to the debate which you are seeking on these forums, so I will understand if you do not wish to talk about it.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1113
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 1:15:46 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


I don't know. Maybe gangster and super-hero movies aren't the ideal place for such thought-provoking ideas after all...



If I may be so bold, and if you will permit me the chance to respond to you - why can't these genres be the place to present thought-provoking ideas?

Perhaps my question is too limiting to the debate which you are seeking on these forums, so I will understand if you do not wish to talk about it.


I said "maybe."

Are you kidding? Like Clive Barker and David Cronenberg, I think genres are precisely the place to explore complex and sensitive issues metaphorically which maybe are too sensitive to discuss directly. And they always have been. Look at all those giant bug movies in the 50s which reflected anxiety over The Bomb and alien invasion flicks which were really Reds-Under-The-Bed movies. Or violent westerns like The Wild Bunch which were "about" Vietnam in a way no war movie would have dared in 1969. (I mean, have you seen The Green Berets? Jaysus!)

And look at how The Dark Knight Trilogy obliquely addresses 9/11 and The War on Terror with more depth and maturity than the worthy-but-dull (and on-the-nose) likes of World Trade Centre and In The Valley of Elah. I don't doubt that great movies will be made directly about these still-sensitive subjects some day. But it will take time and perspective - it was almost 20 years before Hollywood addressed Vietnam in earnest. It'll probably take that long again before Hollywood addresses the here and now. So until then, The Dark Knight (and, interestingly, The Avengers) will just have to do for now.

(United 93 is probably the one truly Great film about 9/11 so far, but it's still "just" a docudrama which powerfully re-stages the events of that day free of the historical context later films will be able to provide with the benefit of hindsight.)

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1114
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 1:39:42 PM   
clownfoot


Posts: 7909
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: The ickle town of Fuck, Austria

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


I don't know. Maybe gangster and super-hero movies aren't the ideal place for such thought-provoking ideas after all...



If I may be so bold, and if you will permit me the chance to respond to you - why can't these genres be the place to present thought-provoking ideas?

Perhaps my question is too limiting to the debate which you are seeking on these forums, so I will understand if you do not wish to talk about it.


I said "maybe."

Are you kidding? Like Clive Barker and David Cronenberg, I think genres are precisely the place to explore complex and sensitive issues metaphorically which maybe are too sensitive to discuss directly. And they always have been. Look at all those giant bug movies in the 50s which reflected anxiety over The Bomb and alien invasion flicks which were really Reds-Under-The-Bed movies. Or violent westerns like Soldier Blue which were "about" Vietnam in a way no war movie would have dared in 1969. (I mean, have you seen The Green Berets? Jaysus!)

And look at how The Dark Knight Trilogy obliquely addresses 9/11 and The War on Terror with more depth and maturity than the worthy-but-dull (and on-the-nose) likes of World Trade Centre and In The Valley of Elah. I don't doubt that great movies will be made directly about these still-sensitive subjects some day. But it will take time and perspective - it was almost 20 years before Hollywood addressed Vietnam in earnest. It'll probably take that long again before Hollywood addresses the here and now. So until then, The Dark Knight (and, interestingly, The Avengers) will just have to do for now.

(United 93 is probably the one truly Great film about 9/11 so far, but it's still "just" a docudrama which powerfully re-stages the events of that day free of the historical context later films will be able to provide with the benefit of hindsight.)



Corrected for accuracy.

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Post #: 1115
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 2:27:59 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010
That an' all. More overtly too. But The Wild Bunch is a "stealth" Vietnam movie as well. As is Ulzana's Raid and a whole, er, fistful of Spaghetti Westerns which tended to be very political/left wing anyway - A Bullet For The General is about 'Imperial' American interference in regional conflicts.

(Soldier Blue's so violent, BTW, it makes The Wild Bunch look like The Brady Bunch!)

(in reply to clownfoot)
Post #: 1116
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 3:49:30 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 750
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

Anywho... The Dark Knight. Did I raise any issues about it earlier in my rather lengthy (and, I hoped, serious and thought-provoking yet light-hearted) review/essay that anyone would like to discuss on this Dark Knight Review thread? Anyone...?


Well, the first point I'd take issue with is the lack of flab. There's definitely flab. Always is with Nolan.


From a purely scriptwriting perspective, I'd say Nolan and his co-writers are definitely low-fat. If anything, you could argue they are too schematic. A-B writers, overly-concerned with plot at the expense of everything else. Look how the scenes at the start of The Dark Knight introduce The Joker, Gordon, Batman/Wayne and Dent, in turn, then starts mixing and matching them (Batman and Gordon, Gordon and Dent, Dent and Wayne) until the triumverate of "decent men in an indecent time" meet for the first time on the roof of the MCU. Each scene, building up to that moment which sets Act II in motion, is textbook "Screenwriting 101." Each scene imparts vital information about character, plot or both then, job done, doesn't hang about. On to the next scene. Yet what could be a soulless exercise in plot mechanics is anything but cos these vital scenes which introduce the dramatis personae and set up the plot are great dramatic scenes in their own right. The drama hides the machinery. Now that's good writing and as lean as Jessica Ennis.

Take the dinner scene between Bruce, Harvey and Rachel. It's virtually the heart and soul of the film and, apart from The Joker, the main engine of the plot. This scene establishes so much amid the witty banter and amusing character interplay. It establishes that Bruce believes Harvey could well be The White Knight he's been looking for. It sets up the whole "Either you die a hero" thing which basically binds Bruce and Harvey together and seals their fate. But most importantly and most subtly it starts ringing alarm bells that Harvey maybe isn't quite The White Knight everyone hopes he is and suggests that maybe Two-Face was lurking far below the surface all along. And it does all this and more with incredible skill, craft and economy.

It's a bit of a screenwriting masterclass in its own right. A filmmaking and acting masterclass too. Listen to what's being said. And what is unsaid. Look at the masks everyone's wearing, the lies and deceptions. Look at the telling glances between Rachel and Bruce which speak volumes. Watch how the camera circles the characters round the table (a signature move which recurs throughout the film) which suggests unease and reflects how, behind Bruce's smirking playboy act, The Batman is circling Harvey like a predator, trying to suss him out. Phew! And that's not the half of it. And that's just one scene. I've seen whole movies which don't have that much going on!

quote:

But the one single feature that I always remember, the first thing that always pops into my head is this: Nolan (and most of the film's fans) focus on how the film is bedded in reality. Not the cartoon world of Burton, but a hyper-stylised world in which we might all exist. And then, he gives us the worst cgi make-up for Two-Face at the end, that I thought I was watching shots from The Mummy. And The Mummy hasn't aged well. The moment that happened, BAM, the film lost me. Because everything in a film has to work within the framework that it has built for itself.


Fair enough. Few things date quicker than special effects. Personally I found "Two-Face" disturbingly horrific, a good "Nolanverse" approximation of the comics, and a vast improvement on the Tommy Lee Jones in Batman Forever. I thought it looked convincingly "real" enough although obviously such an injury would surely prove fatal. Burns victims are particularly prone to infections and at the very least Harvey would be blind in that dry, lidless eye, and sound like The Elephant Man. Wearing Bane's gimp mask.

But that's the tightrope Nolan's been walking - between comic book fantasy and at least the appearance of a plausible pseudo-reality. As I said before, I think The Dark Knight Trilogy's supposed "realism" has been overstated and can be counter-productive - the more "real" it tries to be, the sillier it risks looking. Two-Face kinda encapsulates that.

I like Nolan and Burton's Bat-flicks for different reasons. While I prefer the gritty "reality" of Nolan (probably cos I'm so pedantic) I've always loved the twisted, German Expressionism of Batman Returns which, being so timeless, may actually age better than The Dark Knight Trilogy. Nolan's films are so contemporary, so rooted in the here-and-now (9/11, The War on Terror, Occupy, yadda, yadda, yadda) that they may date really badly. Even more than poor old Harvey's CGI-ed face!




I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!

(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1117
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 4:25:27 PM   
Discodez

 

Posts: 793
Joined: 2/9/2010
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!




you still managed one though



< Message edited by Discodez -- 21/8/2012 4:34:34 PM >

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1118
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 4:31:40 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 750
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!




you still managed one though


Damn you, hoisted by my own petard!

(in reply to Discodez)
Post #: 1119
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 4:34:54 PM   
Discodez

 

Posts: 793
Joined: 2/9/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!




you still managed one though


Damn you, hoisted by my own petard!


I have to agree with Chris's comments on the two face CGI though, having watched TDK again recently sure it's not perfect but it's pretty damn good. You say that as soon as it appears then BAM any notion of reality goes out the window but how else could it have been achieved, make up can only go so far and to have made it with prosthetics and all gory and bloody would have made his face look bloated and plasticy and probably made the censors baulk at giving the film a 12 certificate.

The only "realistic" way they could have done it would have been to rip off half of Eckhart's face! I doubt he's that "method" personally

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Post #: 1120
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 4:43:14 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 750
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!




you still managed one though


Damn you, hoisted by my own petard!


I have to agree with Chris's comments on the two face CGI though, having watched TDK again recently sure it's not perfect but it's pretty damn good. You say that as soon as it appears then BAM any notion of reality goes out the window but how else could it have been achieved, make up can only go so far and to have made it with prosthetics and all gory and bloody would have made his face look bloated and plasticy and probably made the censors baulk at giving the film a 12 certificate.

The only "realistic" way they could have done it would have been to rip off half of Eckhart's face! I doubt he's that "method" personally


I don't know, I remember a magazine (can't remember which, probably worth googling) that ran a fan art competition on what Two Face might look like (this was just prior to TDK being released). And some of them were quite good and realistic ... but all of the comments were that they were too cartoonish and over the top and that Nolan would be going for something far more believable, following the tone of Batman Begins. Of course, those fan pics were like pictures from A&E by comparison to what Nolan eventually gave us!

(in reply to Discodez)
Post #: 1121
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:36:01 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

tl;dr


There's a ration on words ? How very Orwellian..

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1122
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:41:00 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I'm not really sure what knowing you has to do with the price of fish.

You moan that someone is being pedantic. Then you are pedantic.

You have a go because somebody lists critics who were favourable towards The Godfather - despite having made that happen in the first place - and then list your own critics with unfavourable reviews of The Godfather.

What am I missing here?



The point ?

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1123
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:42:07 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

If you can get a straight answer out of yourself, let me know.



Ooh ! get the madam !

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1124
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:43:50 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

This is a particularly dark night...for logical discourse.

DID YOU SEE WHAT I DID THERE.




Nope. Went completely over my head.

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Post #: 1125
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:46:38 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12120
Joined: 30/9/2005
Please Renegade, we really don't need another poster who quotes post after post after post

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Post #: 1126
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 5:50:16 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54433
Joined: 1/10/2005
I'm sure your friend can argue his own corner Mr Renegade - so leave the trolling out, yes?


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to The Renegade)
Post #: 1127
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 6:15:34 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

I also would have preferred that Nolan used Prosthetics for Two Face, although his excuse for using CGI was that Make up just added to the face, whereas a burn is supposed to take away from the face, using CGI was the only way to get that effect. While I would have preferred make up it doesn't really take me out of the film.


I've been a bit 50-50 about Two Face as well, the injuries look so extreme it does shift the film out of the 'realism' aspect of Nolan's take on Batman, but it also looks so damn cool you forgive it, so overall CGI Two Face gets a thumbs up.

(in reply to giggity)
Post #: 1128
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 7:19:51 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Please Renegade, we really don't need another poster who quotes post after post after post



Sorry.

(in reply to Hood_Man)
Post #: 1129
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 7:23:03 PM   
The Renegade

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 24/6/2012
quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm sure your friend can argue his own corner Mr Renegade - so leave the trolling out, yes?




Sorry ? Say what ? Those Billy goats trip trapping over my bridge distracted me..

< Message edited by The Renegade -- 21/8/2012 7:25:50 PM >

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 1130
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 1:54:48 AM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Discodez


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!




you still managed one though


Damn you, hoisted by my own petard!


I have to agree with Chris's comments on the two face CGI though, having watched TDK again recently sure it's not perfect but it's pretty damn good. You say that as soon as it appears then BAM any notion of reality goes out the window but how else could it have been achieved, make up can only go so far and to have made it with prosthetics and all gory and bloody would have made his face look bloated and plasticy and probably made the censors baulk at giving the film a 12 certificate.

The only "realistic" way they could have done it would have been to rip off half of Eckhart's face! I doubt he's that "method" personally


Wasn't The Red Skull in Captain America a combination of prosthetics and CGI? Make-up which was digitally tweaked and slimmed down in post...?

(in reply to Discodez)
Post #: 1131
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 1:58:34 AM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!


Sorry. I have that effect on people. "Masterclass" was pushing it a bit. But so was "idolatry." I don't like The Dark Knight that much. But it was late and I'd had a very trying evening...


< Message edited by chris kilby -- 22/8/2012 2:07:13 AM >

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1132
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 2:43:26 PM   
Gazz


Posts: 872
Joined: 30/9/2005
EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread.

< Message edited by Gazz -- 22/8/2012 2:54:46 PM >

(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1133
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 2:48:16 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 750
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!


Sorry. I have that effect on people. "Masterclass" was pushing it a bit. But so was "idolatry." I don't like The Dark Knight that much. But it was late and I'd had a very trying evening...



Fair enough. I suppose I come from the other extreme. I went in expecting TDK to be brilliant (thanks to all of the hype and my enjoyment of the first and general enjoyment of this kind of movie) and was hugely disappointed. Probably because my expectations were too high. As a result, I think I've had a slightly tainted, negative opinion ever since. Probably unfairly so. I think I need to revisit it ... it doesn't help that an old love rival is actually in it (albeit in a small part!) and I can't help watching it and thinking "not only did you get my girl, but you're also in a huge Nolan blockbuster!!!" Therefore watching TDK makes me feel less of a man!

(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1134
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 2:49:58 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19038
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!


Sorry. I have that effect on people. "Masterclass" was pushing it a bit. But so was "idolatry." I don't like The Dark Knight that much. But it was late and I'd had a very trying evening...



Fair enough. I suppose I come from the other extreme. I went in expecting TDK to be brilliant (thanks to all of the hype and my enjoyment of the first and general enjoyment of this kind of movie) and was hugely disappointed. Probably because my expectations were too high. As a result, I think I've had a slightly tainted, negative opinion ever since. Probably unfairly so. I think I need to revisit it ... it doesn't help that an old love rival is actually in it (albeit in a small part!) and I can't help watching it and thinking "not only did you get my girl, but you're also in a huge Nolan blockbuster!!!" Therefore watching TDK makes me feel less of a man!


ERIC ROBERTS IS YOUR LOVE RIVAL?

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1135
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 2:54:24 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 750
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I don't know where to start. I can understand that you rate the film highly, but this is bordering on idolatry. Objective reasoning has gone out the window. Acting/writing/filmmaking mastercalsses? Those comments drain my soul so comprehensively that the resultant ennui renders any response impossible!


Sorry. I have that effect on people. "Masterclass" was pushing it a bit. But so was "idolatry." I don't like The Dark Knight that much. But it was late and I'd had a very trying evening...



Fair enough. I suppose I come from the other extreme. I went in expecting TDK to be brilliant (thanks to all of the hype and my enjoyment of the first and general enjoyment of this kind of movie) and was hugely disappointed. Probably because my expectations were too high. As a result, I think I've had a slightly tainted, negative opinion ever since. Probably unfairly so. I think I need to revisit it ... it doesn't help that an old love rival is actually in it (albeit in a small part!) and I can't help watching it and thinking "not only did you get my girl, but you're also in a huge Nolan blockbuster!!!" Therefore watching TDK makes me feel less of a man!


ERIC ROBERTS IS YOUR LOVE RIVAL?


No, because that would make me feel MUCH MORE of a man! This is someone who has about two lines on one of the ferries. And he has a punchable face. Ergo watching TDK confirms that I am a mere maggot.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1136
Epic Film. - 22/8/2012 3:06:20 PM   
reaper996

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 21/8/2012
Batman Begins was a hard film to live up to, but Chris Nolan and Co manage it. The Dark Knight is an epic film of all proportions and is one of the best films of all time. The cast, score, effects, script and other things are just spectacular and all help make this one dazzling film. A must watch.

(in reply to Empire Admin)
Post #: 1137
RE: The Dark Knight - 22/8/2012 11:45:10 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Please Renegade, we really don't need another poster who quotes post after post after post



Speak for yourself!

(in reply to Hood_Man)
Post #: 1138
RE: The Dark Knight - 23/8/2012 12:04:03 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


I don't know. Maybe gangster and super-hero movies aren't the ideal place for such thought-provoking ideas after all...



If I may be so bold, and if you will permit me the chance to respond to you - why can't these genres be the place to present thought-provoking ideas?

Perhaps my question is too limiting to the debate which you are seeking on these forums, so I will understand if you do not wish to talk about it.


I said "maybe."

Are you kidding? Like Clive Barker and David Cronenberg, I think genres are precisely the place to explore complex and sensitive issues metaphorically which maybe are too sensitive to discuss directly. And they always have been. Look at all those giant bug movies in the 50s which reflected anxiety over The Bomb and alien invasion flicks which were really Reds-Under-The-Bed movies. Or violent westerns like The Wild Bunch which were "about" Vietnam in a way no war movie would have dared in 1969. (I mean, have you seen The Green Berets? Jaysus!)

And look at how The Dark Knight Trilogy obliquely addresses 9/11 and The War on Terror with more depth and maturity than the worthy-but-dull (and on-the-nose) likes of World Trade Centre and In The Valley of Elah. I don't doubt that great movies will be made directly about these still-sensitive subjects some day. But it will take time and perspective - it was almost 20 years before Hollywood addressed Vietnam in earnest. It'll probably take that long again before Hollywood addresses the here and now. So until then, The Dark Knight (and, interestingly, The Avengers) will just have to do for now.

(United 93 is probably the one truly Great film about 9/11 so far, but it's still "just" a docudrama which powerfully re-stages the events of that day free of the historical context later films will be able to provide with the benefit of hindsight.)


quote:


RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 1:15:46 PM   



Well said. Were Five Act plays the natural mode for the greatest literature ever before Shakespeare came along?

(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1139
RE: The Dark Knight - 23/8/2012 12:36:51 AM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1200
Joined: 31/3/2010
Dunno. But as Robert McKee himself has pointed out - the three-act structure is nothing new. It's as old as storytelling itself. Most stories (most drama, certainly) fits into it naturally - set-up, development, resolution. It's basically how classic storytelling works. It's not something that was imposed on us by Hollywood or anything. They just stuck a new label on it.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 1140
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