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RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 6:53:48 PM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20118
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


You mean night and Bay, right? RIGHT?

I'll get my coat.


_____________________________

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


Bristol Bad Film Club
A place where movie fans can come and behold some of the most awful films ever put to celluloid.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1051
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 6:55:19 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1052
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 6:59:33 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.


Nolan is still restrained in those action scenes in a way that Bay would not be.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1053
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 7:08:58 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.


Nolan is still restrained in those action scenes in a way that Bay would not be.


I certainly can't argue with that - and I can definitely see the Mann connection - but it does infuriate me that his films all (in my opinion only, of course) miss greatness because of unneccessary and unneccessarily long set-pieces. I genuinely don't understand it, because Bay seems to do it just to titillate, whereas Nolan certainly isn't doing that (I promise, that's the last time I'll mention them in the same breath!) The first thing I always think after watching a Nolan movie is "he really does need an editor with the balls to stand up to him." TDK and TDKR could both have done with a good few minutes taken from their running time. Not because they were too long, but because there was material that didn't really add anything or just plain didn't make sense, which makes them flabby.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1054
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:28:10 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


You mean night and Bay, right? RIGHT?

I'll get my coat.



I'll hold the door...

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1055
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:34:51 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

tl;dr


?

(I take it "tl" is "too long." In your opinion or is there such a thing as a word limit round 'ere? As for "dr...")



Too Long, Didn't Read

Darn you HM! TS;IL

"Too Slow;I Lose?"

Nooooo I've been out acronymed! Or NIBOA!


Well done sir, spot on!

And Chris, no argument about the quality of your writing or the validity of your arguments, but it does feel just a bit like reading an essay. As they say (this is going to sound patronizing, but it's really not meant to be ... I'm slowly discovering that I have an unintentionally patronizing internet persona!!) the sign of a great writer isn't what he puts in, it's what he leaves out.


OK - who's for the redux review then? Hello? Hello...?

Och, if I say absolutely everything I have to say about a movie in a one-er, it means I don't have to clog up threads unnecessarily with fecking HUNDREDS of posts saying THE SAME FECKING THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Besides, I find the internet is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it!

Er... thanks, BTW. I think.

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1056
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:37:02 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.




And we all LOVE you for it!

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1057
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:38:50 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.


To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.


George Lazenby, surely...?

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1058
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:39:58 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


Zen and The Art of Blockbuster Maintenance!

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1059
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 8:42:54 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.


Nolan is still restrained in those action scenes in a way that Bay would not be.


I certainly can't argue with that - and I can definitely see the Mann connection - but it does infuriate me that his films all (in my opinion only, of course) miss greatness because of unneccessary and unneccessarily long set-pieces. I genuinely don't understand it, because Bay seems to do it just to titillate, whereas Nolan certainly isn't doing that (I promise, that's the last time I'll mention them in the same breath!) The first thing I always think after watching a Nolan movie is "he really does need an editor with the balls to stand up to him." TDK and TDKR could both have done with a good few minutes taken from their running time. Not because they were too long, but because there was material that didn't really add anything or just plain didn't make sense, which makes them flabby.


You have a point. I know I'm one to talk, but I do think films tend to be unnecessarily long these days...

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1060
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:04:56 PM   
giggity

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 4/3/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.


To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.


You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1061
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:15:29 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.




And we all LOVE you for it!



What in the name of Jehosaphat are you taking out of sewers?!

To be fair, I've just seen the beginning of RG's Prometheus review and it makes your Dark Knight review look like a logline

(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1062
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:40:06 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.


You mean Knight and Bay, right? RIGHT?

I'll get my coat.



Fixed that for you.

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 1063
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:47:38 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.


To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.


You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.



The Dark Knight has been called this generation's Godfather. I can well believe it. And bear in mind, The Godfather wasn't universally hailed at the time, either. And interestingly, a lot of da kids now fink it's BORING, innit?

By the same token, it was kids my age who hailed Star Wars, Raiders and, eventually, Blade Runner, classics. A lot of the old farts hated them. Probably cos they reminded them how old and out of touch they were - UP YOURS, GRANDAD!

(in reply to giggity)
Post #: 1064
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:50:38 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.




And we all LOVE you for it!



What in the name of Jehosaphat are you taking out of sewers?!


The Gotham PD.


quote:

To be fair, I've just seen the beginning of RG's Prometheus review and it makes your Dark Knight review look like a logline


Now there's a challenge!


(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1065
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 9:52:46 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.


To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.


You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.



The Dark Knight has been called this generation's Godfather. I can well believe it. And bear in mind, The Godfather wasn't universally hailed at the time, either. And interestingly, a lot of da kids now fink it's BORING, innit?

By the same token, it was kids my age who hailed Star Wars, Raiders and, eventually, Blade Runner, classics. A lot of the old farts hated them. Probably cos they reminded them how old and out of touch they were - UP YOURS, GRANDAD!



Godfather got amazing reviews, awards glory and box office success. It was a proper big hit.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1066
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 10:04:51 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006
I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, I love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

< Message edited by Prophet_of_Doom -- 20/8/2012 10:11:38 PM >

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1067
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 10:08:45 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
We have achieved triple AAA hyperbole with both Bay and Godfather. See what happens when we bump this darn thread!

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1068
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 10:18:00 PM   
giggity

 

Posts: 288
Joined: 4/3/2012

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

i dont know if you've read much by chris kilby but he has a somewhat...juvenile, obsessive approach to comments sometimes so if you're a veteran of any batman related thread you learn to filter him out when he says things like that.

However, You say delusions of grandeur, I say it aspires to be something a bit more than just popcorm entertainment. I'm not calling it high art but it's more appealing to me as a film than The Avengers was, not to say Avengers is a bad film, quite the opposite, to me The Avengers is a summer, popcorn blockbuster but done very well, but The Dark Knight films just offer that much more. I think a more correct film to identify the nolan batman films is with the first matrix, it was a blockbuster through and through but it offered a bit more substance which raised it above many other blockbusters (i'm not talking about the matrix sequels btw). Plus I don't think the fact that they're more serious than your average blockbuster keep it from becoming a classic. As Mark Kermode described Batman Begins, once he walked out of the cinema his first reaction was "oh my god, I can't believe someone was given that much money to make an art house film" Essentially that's what these films are, they step in the middle of blockbuster entertainment and more adult minded drama's and crime stories. Some have complained recently (noting that back when begins came out the verdict was mostly positive from the internet hoards) that this is an odd tone and it doesnt quite go together but me personally I love it. It perfectly presents to me my love for blockbusters which i had as a child, and i still have now however i'm much harder to impress down to the repetition of most blockbusters, and the more mature films i discovered when I was a teenager/Young adult, and continue to love to this day.

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1069
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 10:27:31 PM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006
quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

i dont know if you've read much by chris kilby but he has a somewhat...juvenile, obsessive approach to comments sometimes so if you're a veteran of any batman related thread you learn to filter him out when he says things like that.

However, You say delusions of grandeur, I say it aspires to be something a bit more than just popcorm entertainment. I'm not calling it high art but it's more appealing to me as a film than The Avengers was, not to say Avengers is a bad film, quite the opposite, to me The Avengers is a summer, popcorn blockbuster but done very well, but The Dark Knight films just offer that much more. I think a more correct film to identify the nolan batman films is with the first matrix, it was a blockbuster through and through but it offered a bit more substance which raised it above many other blockbusters (i'm not talking about the matrix sequels btw). Plus I don't think the fact that they're more serious than your average blockbuster keep it from becoming a classic. As Mark Kermode described Batman Begins, once he walked out of the cinema his first reaction was "oh my god, I can't believe someone was given that much money to make an art house film" Essentially that's what these films are, they step in the middle of blockbuster entertainment and more adult minded drama's and crime stories. Some have complained recently (noting that back when begins came out the verdict was mostly positive from the internet hoards) that this is an odd tone and it doesnt quite go together but me personally I love it. It perfectly presents to me my love for blockbusters which i had as a child, and i still have now however i'm much harder to impress down to the repetition of most blockbusters, and the more mature films i discovered when I was a teenager/Young adult, and continue to love to this day.


To be fair to you, that's a really good point and very well argued. It's not often I am forced to reassess my own opinions! It is slightly presumptious (maybe even arrogant) of me to suggest that it's delusions of grandeur and not Nolan simply trying to elevate his films to something out of the ordinary. I can certainly see that and of course if that's the case, then good on him. I'd suggest that he still doesn't quite pull it off because I think he doesn't quite know when to reign it in when he needs to - as mentioned before, I do think some of his set-pieces are overblown and the equivalent of a serious Expendables 2 ... hey, why have a two minute fight when we can have a ten minute one!! I also think the comparison with The Matrix is a good one, which I would probably put in my top ten films, but it certainly has moments where it really does take itself far too seriously. So, all I can say is that perhaps you're right and I should be a bit more objective in my next viewing of TDK.

I'm now going to go and struggle with my new existential crisis which has arisen from the fact that I might possibly be wrong about something.

Worst thread ever.

< Message edited by Prophet_of_Doom -- 20/8/2012 10:28:30 PM >

(in reply to giggity)
Post #: 1070
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 11:45:55 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.


To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.


You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.



The Dark Knight has been called this generation's Godfather. I can well believe it. And bear in mind, The Godfather wasn't universally hailed at the time, either. And interestingly, a lot of da kids now fink it's BORING, innit?

By the same token, it was kids my age who hailed Star Wars, Raiders and, eventually, Blade Runner, classics. A lot of the old farts hated them. Probably cos they reminded them how old and out of touch they were - UP YOURS, GRANDAD!



Godfather got amazing reviews, awards glory and box office success. It was a proper big hit.


Still doesn't mean it was universally adored. Plenty of critics slated it as well. Box office success is no barometer of quality. And as for "awards glory..." It's a sympathy vote!

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1071
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 11:49:06 PM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
The Godfather got a sympathy vote? That makes no sense.

Did I say the box office was a sign of quality? No I didn't. I said it was successful both critically and with the public and it went on to win the Best Picture. It was a hugely successful film.

Where are these critics you mention?

Here is the New York Times
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=EE05E7DF1739E464BC4E52DFB5668389669EDE

Ebert
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19720101/REVIEWS/201010312/1023

Kael
http://www.potatoships.com/paulineadobe/index.htm

Just three off the top of my head. Now will there be people who don't like it? Sure, name me a movie and I will show you someone who doesn't like it. But the consensus was positive from the outset.



< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 20/8/2012 11:55:41 PM >


_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1072
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 11:55:54 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.


You know, it's funny you should say that. Plenty of critics at the time said exactly the same thing about The Godfather. That it was "just" a pretentious gangster flick based on a trashy novel, that it was no masterpiece, and Brando's tired theatrics were anything but great acting. I'm not saying these criticisms were correct. I've always liked The Godfather even though it hopelessly romanticises the worst kind of criminal scum the same way The Dark Knight Trilogy hopelessly romanticises politically dubious masked vigilantes. But be under no illusions. Both are utterly unbelievable fantasies with no bearing on reality whatsoever. Both are also, in their own way, pretentious genre flicks with "delusions of grandeur." That's why I like 'em!

But ultimately it's posterity which decides these things. Time has been kind to The Godfather. It remains to be seen how kind it will be to The Dark Knight Trilogy - The Dark Knight Rises has only been out a month after all. Although, to be perfectly fair, the critics have been a lot kinder to The Dark Knight Rises (EMPIRE *****) than they were to The Godfather Part III (EMPIRE **) And rightly so.

I haven't watched The Godfather in ages. I might just stick it on...


< Message edited by chris kilby -- 21/8/2012 12:29:21 AM >

(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1073
RE: The Dark Knight - 20/8/2012 11:57:42 PM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

i dont know if you've read much by chris kilby but he has a somewhat...juvenile, obsessive approach to comments sometimes so if you're a veteran of any batman related thread you learn to filter him out when he says things like that.






(in reply to giggity)
Post #: 1074
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:00:25 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
Actually for the sake of balance here is a lukewarm review from Variety.

http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117933082/

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1075
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:04:59 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.


You know, it's funny you should say that. Plenty of critics at the time said exactly the same thing about The Godfather. That it was "just" a pretentious gangster flick based on a trashy novel, that it was no masterpiece, and Brando's tired theatrics were anything but great acting. I'm not saying these criticisms were correct. I've always liked The Godfather even though it hopelessly romanticises the worst kind of criminal scum the same way The Dark Knight Trilogy hopelessly romanticises politically dubious masked vigilantes. But be under no illusions. Both are utterly unbelievable fantasies with no bearing on reality whatsoever. Both are also, in their own way, pretentious genre flicks with "delusions of grandeur." That's why I like 'em!

I haven't watched The Godfather in ages. I might just stick it on...



That only works as a criticism if you think that Coppola was trying to tell a real version of the Mafia world, and wasn't just using it as something from which to hang a story about family and the loss of soul.

Godfather has as much to say about crime as AN has to say about Vietnam. It the dressing for deeper themes.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
Post #: 1076
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:18:48 AM   
Prophet_of_Doom

 

Posts: 755
Joined: 15/2/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44


quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby


quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.


You know, it's funny you should say that. Plenty of critics at the time said exactly the same thing about The Godfather. That it was "just" a pretentious gangster flick based on a trashy novel, that it was no masterpiece, and Brando's tired theatrics were anything but great acting. I'm not saying these criticisms were correct. I've always liked The Godfather even though it hopelessly romanticises the worst kind of criminal scum the same way The Dark Knight Trilogy hopelessly romanticises politically dubious masked vigilantes. But be under no illusions. Both are utterly unbelievable fantasies with no bearing on reality whatsoever. Both are also, in their own way, pretentious genre flicks with "delusions of grandeur." That's why I like 'em!

I haven't watched The Godfather in ages. I might just stick it on...



That only works as a criticism if you think that Coppola was trying to tell a real version of the Mafia world, and wasn't just using it as something from which to hang a story about family and the loss of soul.

Godfather has as much to say about crime as AN has to say about Vietnam. It the dressing for deeper themes.


The thing is, everything works on a thematic level, whether or not it's AN or a Chuck Norris movie. However, I think the problem lies in a certain snobbery (of which I'm definitely guilty) that says that a film which is very clearly working on a more profound level and has plenty to say (like Apocalypse Now) has more validity than a comic book adaptation which might be trying to do something similar, just in a more subtle manner. Indeed, the fact that there's very little subtlety in Apocalypse Now's themes should make it the weaker film. But I watch it and know it's an intelligent movie and can pat myself (and Coppola) on the back. Whereas I watch TDK and either accuse it of pomposity for trying to have deeper meaning, or decide that its themes are so well buried that it's just a popcorn movie. Either way, it's actually me at fault rather than the film.

(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1077
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:22:58 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
No two films are created the same and you need to consider them within the confines of what they are trying to and how well they achieve. Godfather is very clear in both the text and subtext of the film. Perhaps a problem some (not all) is that the TDK is muddled in places.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to Prophet_of_Doom)
Post #: 1078
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:23:40 AM   
chris kilby

 

Posts: 1264
Joined: 31/3/2010

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The Godfather got a sympathy vote? That makes no sense.


I was quoting Trainspotting. What is colloquially referred to as... a joke. Light-hearted shorthand for Oscars and the like are pretty trinkets and empty baubles and therefore as intrinsically worthless as they are meaningless. Which is why Hitchcock, Kubrick and Welles never won Oscars for directing. But Ron Howard has. Jaysus!

quote:

Did I say the box office was a sign of quality? No I didn't. I said it was successful both critically and with the public and it went on to win the Best Picture. It was a hugely successful film.


Did I say you did? My god, you are a painfully pedantic and literal-minded sort of chap, aren't you? If you don't mind me saying so...

quote:

Where are these critics you mention?


Seriously? OK then, if you absolutely insist, but I'm not usually this pedantic...

"The immorality lies in his presentation of murderers as delightful family men - the criminal is the salt of the earth - and to our shame we rub it into the wounds of our Watergate-world morality and even ask for more."

(Judith Crist, 1974)

"They have put pudding in Brando's cheeks and dirtied his teeth, he speaks hoarsely and moves stiffly, and these combined mechanics are hailed as great acting... Like star,like film, the keynote is inflation. The Godfather was made from a big bestseller, a lot of money was spent on it, and it runs over three hours. Therefore it's important."

(Stanley Kauffmann)

There were others, you know. No film is ever universally adored no matter how popular it is, how much money it makes or how many awards it wins. Which was the original point I was trying to make. Really, do I have to spell out absolutely everything I say in such tediously tendentious fashion? Blimey.

quote:

Here is the New York Times
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=EE05E7DF1739E464BC4E52DFB5668389669EDE

Ebert
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19720101/REVIEWS/201010312/1023

Kael
http://www.potatoships.com/paulineadobe/index.htm


And your point is...? I mean apart from quoting other people's points.

quote:

Just three off the top of my head. Now will there be people who don't like it? Sure, name me a movie and I will show you someone who doesn't like it.


Yeah. I know. That was my original point exactly.

quote:

But the consensus was positive from the outset.


And...? I'm not really detecting a disagreement or argument here. But if you want to sit there and argue with yourself, you go right ahead. Don't let me stop you.


(in reply to Rgirvan44)
Post #: 1079
RE: The Dark Knight - 21/8/2012 12:36:01 AM   
Rgirvan44


Posts: 19049
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park
And you wonder why people aren't that keen talking to you.

Oh but of course you are just having some light hearted "banter".

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.


(in reply to chris kilby)
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