quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne.


TREK WARS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.

Nolan is still restrained in those action scenes in a way that Bay would not be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

You mean night and Bay, right? RIGHT?

I'll get my coat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

tl;dr

?

(I take it "tl" is "too long." In your opinion or is there such a thing as a word limit round 'ere? As for "dr...")

Too Long, Didn't Read

Darn you HM! TS;IL

"Too Slow;I Lose?"

Nooooo I've been out acronymed! Or NIBOA!

Well done sir, spot on!

And Chris, no argument about the quality of your writing or the validity of your arguments, but it does feel just a bit like reading an essay. As they say (this is going to sound patronizing, but it's really not meant to be ... I'm slowly discovering that I have an unintentionally patronizing internet persona!!) the sign of a great writer isn't what he puts in, it's what he leaves out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.

To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

I'm clearly exaggerating for effect, but I don't think they're worlds apart. Both utilise extended, unneccessary set pieces which bring little to the narrative: I give you, the stock market heist from TDKR.

Nolan is still restrained in those action scenes in a way that Bay would not be.

I certainly can't argue with that - and I can definitely see the Mann connection - but it does infuriate me that his films all (in my opinion only, of course) miss greatness because of unneccessary and unneccessarily long set-pieces. I genuinely don't understand it, because Bay seems to do it just to titillate, whereas Nolan certainly isn't doing that (I promise, that's the last time I'll mention them in the same breath!) The first thing I always think after watching a Nolan movie is "he really does need an editor with the balls to stand up to him." TDK and TDKR could both have done with a good few minutes taken from their running time. Not because they were too long, but because there was material that didn't really add anything or just plain didn't make sense, which makes them flabby.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.

To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.

And we all LOVE you for it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Nolan at his worst is nothing like Michael Bay. They are like night and day.

Michael Mann is the director I would compare with - both have a clinical way of directing.

You mean Knight and Bay, right? RIGHT?

I'll get my coat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.

To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.

You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

For the record, my patronising, sarcastic persona is entirely intentional.

And we all LOVE you for it!

What in the name of Jehosaphat are you taking out of sewers?!

quote:

To be fair, I've just seen the beginning of RG's Prometheus review and it makes your Dark Knight review look like a logline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.

To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.

You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.

The Dark Knight has been called this generation's Godfather. I can well believe it. And bear in mind, The Godfather wasn't universally hailed at the time, either. And interestingly, a lot of da kids now fink it's BORING, innit?

By the same token, it was kids my age who hailed Star Wars, Raiders and, eventually, Blade Runner, classics. A lot of the old farts hated them. Probably cos they reminded them how old and out of touch they were - UP YOURS, GRANDAD!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

i dont know if you've read much by chris kilby but he has a somewhat...juvenile, obsessive approach to comments sometimes so if you're a veteran of any batman related thread you learn to filter him out when he says things like that.

However, You say delusions of grandeur, I say it aspires to be something a bit more than just popcorm entertainment. I'm not calling it high art but it's more appealing to me as a film than The Avengers was, not to say Avengers is a bad film, quite the opposite, to me The Avengers is a summer, popcorn blockbuster but done very well, but The Dark Knight films just offer that much more. I think a more correct film to identify the nolan batman films is with the first matrix, it was a blockbuster through and through but it offered a bit more substance which raised it above many other blockbusters (i'm not talking about the matrix sequels btw). Plus I don't think the fact that they're more serious than your average blockbuster keep it from becoming a classic. As Mark Kermode described Batman Begins, once he walked out of the cinema his first reaction was "oh my god, I can't believe someone was given that much money to make an art house film" Essentially that's what these films are, they step in the middle of blockbuster entertainment and more adult minded drama's and crime stories. Some have complained recently (noting that back when begins came out the verdict was mostly positive from the internet hoards) that this is an odd tone and it doesnt quite go together but me personally I love it. It perfectly presents to me my love for blockbusters which i had as a child, and i still have now however i'm much harder to impress down to the repetition of most blockbusters, and the more mature films i discovered when I was a teenager/Young adult, and continue to love to this day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I think everyone is pretty much burned out on TDK chat nowerdays. There was some decent debate in these pages, when it was first released. Just feels like everything has been gone over a whole bunch of times now.

To be fair, I think now is when the debate should be happening ... a little after the event. It received an uprecedented amount of praise on release considering what it is - a popcorn blockbuster - and for all those complaining about faults and plot holes, comparisons were made with the likes of Star Wars (which had its fair of critics at the time but has since been considered a classic) and suggestions were made that in years to come it would be considered one of the great pieces of cinema.

Personally, I think Nolan is great at raising good (but not exceptional) material into great blockbusters (which in truth does put it squarely in the mould of Star Wars) but give it ten years and I doubt TDK will get into anyone's top 100. At his worst Nolan is a bit like Michael Bay gone to night school and seems to spend too much time forcing unnecessary and overly complicated set pieces into his films and bleeding them dry for all they're worth. Even in Inception (which I'd put in the top ten films I've seen in the last few years) the snowbound set-piece at the end goes on forever and I kept expecting to see Roger Moore turn up in his Spy Who Loved Me kit.

You compare it to Star Wars twice and yet say in ten years it wouldn't be in anyone's top 100? When Star Wars is still remembered 40 years after it was made.

And I don't know about anyone else but Batman Begins was made 7 years ago and it'd still be in my top 100, Dark Knight is my favourite film and even if another film becomes my favourite in 10 years, Dark Knight wouldn't be too far behind it.

The Dark Knight has been called this generation's Godfather. I can well believe it. And bear in mind, The Godfather wasn't universally hailed at the time, either. And interestingly, a lot of da kids now fink it's BORING, innit?

By the same token, it was kids my age who hailed Star Wars, Raiders and, eventually, Blade Runner, classics. A lot of the old farts hated them. Probably cos they reminded them how old and out of touch they were - UP YOURS, GRANDAD!

Godfather got amazing reviews, awards glory and box office success. It was a proper big hit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.

quote:

ORIGINAL: giggity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece. It's up there with films like The Abyss. Great, great fun, great to look at, moments of pure daftness, moments of high school philosophy, a fantastic piece of entertainment, but - here's the rub - at times they (DK/Abyss) take themselves far, far too seriously to ever be hailed cinematic classics. Don't get me wrong, a love them both, but to hold them up to films like The Godfather. Well, it's just plain unpleasant.

Gah, I hate you all.

i dont know if you've read much by chris kilby but he has a somewhat...juvenile, obsessive approach to comments sometimes so if you're a veteran of any batman related thread you learn to filter him out when he says things like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.

You know, it's funny you should say that. Plenty of critics at the time said exactly the same thing about The Godfather. That it was "just" a pretentious gangster flick based on a trashy novel, that it was no masterpiece, and Brando's tired theatrics were anything but great acting. I'm not saying these criticisms were correct. I've always liked The Godfather even though it hopelessly romanticises the worst kind of criminal scum the same way The Dark Knight Trilogy hopelessly romanticises politically dubious masked vigilantes. But be under no illusions. Both are utterly unbelievable fantasies with no bearing on reality whatsoever. Both are also, in their own way, pretentious genre flicks with "delusions of grandeur." That's why I like 'em!

I haven't watched The Godfather in ages. I might just stick it on...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

quote:

ORIGINAL: chris kilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prophet_of_Doom

I can't believe I get abused for comparing Bay and Nolan, but then The Godfather and The Dark Knight are mentioned on the same page. Screw that, on the same website. Feck it, The Godfather and The Dark Knight shouldn't even both be mentioned on the same internet web thingy! The Dark Knight is a great popcorn flick; it has delusions of grandeur but has too many flaws for it to be considered a cinematic masterpiece.

You know, it's funny you should say that. Plenty of critics at the time said exactly the same thing about The Godfather. That it was "just" a pretentious gangster flick based on a trashy novel, that it was no masterpiece, and Brando's tired theatrics were anything but great acting. I'm not saying these criticisms were correct. I've always liked The Godfather even though it hopelessly romanticises the worst kind of criminal scum the same way The Dark Knight Trilogy hopelessly romanticises politically dubious masked vigilantes. But be under no illusions. Both are utterly unbelievable fantasies with no bearing on reality whatsoever. Both are also, in their own way, pretentious genre flicks with "delusions of grandeur." That's why I like 'em!

I haven't watched The Godfather in ages. I might just stick it on...

That only works as a criticism if you think that Coppola was trying to tell a real version of the Mafia world, and wasn't just using it as something from which to hang a story about family and the loss of soul.

Godfather has as much to say about crime as AN has to say about Vietnam. It the dressing for deeper themes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

The Godfather got a sympathy vote? That makes no sense.

quote:

Did I say the box office was a sign of quality? No I didn't. I said it was successful both critically and with the public and it went on to win the Best Picture. It was a hugely successful film.

quote:

Where are these critics you mention?

quote:

Here is the New York Times
http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=EE05E7DF1739E464BC4E52DFB5668389669EDE

Ebert
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19720101/REVIEWS/201010312/1023

Kael
http://www.potatoships.com/paulineadobe/index.htm

quote:

Just three off the top of my head. Now will there be people who don't like it? Sure, name me a movie and I will show you someone who doesn't like it.

quote:

But the consensus was positive from the outset.