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RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 10:48:41 AM   
Dirk Miggler


Posts: 1111
Joined: 14/1/2009
quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


Right. But the Joker is the best villain out of an excellent rogue's gallery, whereas Luthor is heads and shoulders about all the other Superman villains.
I wasn't claiming that Nicholson and Ledger's Jokers are identical, just that it makes more sense to have a different iteration of the character after a significant gap, which is also true of the Superman movies.


But we haven't had that with The Superman films he's been the same character and had the same plans. That's the point.

Spaceys take on Lex wasn't wildly different from Hackmans but the problem with Returns is the recycling of plans/plots/motivations with regards his character it's a problem in script and story and the fault must lie with Singer it's not a fault of Spaceys who plays him adequately enough but with Singer playing it too safe.

< Message edited by Dirk Miggler -- 5/9/2012 11:03:10 AM >

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 361
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 2:09:08 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
I think one of the problems with Superman is that he's just a bit of a lame superhero, overpowered, lacks personality and has shit enemies. He's far more uninteresting than the likes of the X-Men, Spiderman and Batman to name a few.


(in reply to Dirk Miggler)
Post #: 362
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 3:11:02 PM   
AxlReznor

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/12/2010
From: Great Britain
Yeah, the Justice League cartoon pretty much had to come up with a way to make Superman useless in every episode to make it the slightest bit interesting.
Still, I have to believe that even the lamest of superhero's can have a decent movie made about them if the right people are given the job of doing it. They managed to make a Captain America movie that wasn't the Jingoistic flag-waving travesty that a lot of people would have expected from a Captain America movie. Now if Edgar Wright manages to make people give a shit about Ant-Man no one would have any excuse for making a bad Superman movie again.

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Post #: 363
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 3:21:03 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
I've started a thread about it now but how about completely inventing a new bad guy that doesn't exist in the comics?

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Post #: 364
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 4:55:05 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think one of the problems with Superman is that he's just a bit of a lame superhero, overpowered, lacks personality and has shit enemies. He's far more uninteresting than the likes of the X-Men, Spiderman and Batman to name a few.





lame?! He's the first the best and the strongest! My top two superheroes are Batman and Spider-Man (actually, Batman's probably my favourite anything, which is a bit sad, but I digress) and you can certainly say that they do more easily lend themselves to conflict and drama - there was a good piece on Comics Alliance recently on the first (IIRC) 90 issues of Amazing Spider-Man, talking about how we get proper growth (Peter goes from being the bulllied nerd to college and flirting with hot girls, grows up and understands responsibility etc). But there's no shortage of excellent Superman stories that flow naturally from his inate characteristics.

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Post #: 365
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 5:09:09 PM   
AxlReznor

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/12/2010
From: Great Britain
Being the first doesn't necessarily make him the best. Superman's existence is important because it paved the way for other great superheroes, but he himself is just not a good character. Clark Kent is fantastic, though... but the whole "overpowered" thing hinders absolutely everything that could have made him interesting.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 366
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 5:20:02 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

Being the first doesn't necessarily make him the best. Superman's existence is important because it paved the way for other great superheroes, but he himself is just not a good character. Clark Kent is fantastic, though... but the whole "overpowered" thing hinders absolutely everything that could have made him interesting.



Disagree. I'll take a first rate Superman story over (for example) any "conflict creates character" "dark n gritty" anguished 90s pish any day. And technically the character is Superman and Clark Kent, alien and (adopted!) human, not just a superpowered blank.

(in reply to AxlReznor)
Post #: 367
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 5:39:53 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

Being the first doesn't necessarily make him the best. Superman's existence is important because it paved the way for other great superheroes, but he himself is just not a good character. Clark Kent is fantastic, though... but the whole "overpowered" thing hinders absolutely everything that could have made him interesting.



Disagree. I'll take a first rate Superman story over (for example) any "conflict creates character" "dark n gritty" anguished pish any day.


Kinda like Batman

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 368
RE: Superman Returns - 5/9/2012 5:43:02 PM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AxlReznor

Being the first doesn't necessarily make him the best. Superman's existence is important because it paved the way for other great superheroes, but he himself is just not a good character. Clark Kent is fantastic, though... but the whole "overpowered" thing hinders absolutely everything that could have made him interesting.



Disagree. I'll take a first rate Superman story over (for example) any "conflict creates character" "dark n gritty" anguished pish any day.


Kinda like Batman



Batman's anguished *and* heroic! Aside from which, correlation doesn't imply causation! Batman is a great character and dark and anguished, but there's loads of crap dark and anguished characters. And Batman's a great character even when he's happy! (ish)

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 369
RE: Superman Returns - 9/9/2012 7:29:05 AM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5191
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland
Superman's a fantastic character. Just because the company that owns him has no imagination or ability to handle him these days doesn't mean the character is bad.

The thing about Superman is that the concept is broad enough that you can tell pretty much any kind of story. Read John Byrne's Man of Steel series or Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely's All-Star Superman. Both these series tap into the breadth and scope of Superman and the vast array of stories and tones you can do with him.

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 370
ARGUE! - 11/9/2012 3:24:24 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20120
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
I'm cautious about the new film. Returns was great - screw the haters - but this looks interesting. I fear it may turn the hero dark, which is not Superman's place. Returns was serious, but not dark.

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Post #: 371
Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 8:57:43 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005
I'm not impressed by the Malicky trailer.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


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Post #: 372
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 9:20:19 AM   
homersimpson_esq


Posts: 20120
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Springfield
Hahahahahaha, very good, elab.

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Post #: 373
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 10:21:11 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not impressed by the Malicky trailer.


Come on, Malick's a genius! The last few minutes of The New World consist of one of the most moving and inspired sequences ever put on film (which I know will lead some wag to state that, at best, Malick, like Wagner, has great 15 minutes and rubbish hours, but still)

I thought it was pretty clever of Warners to show ramping-and-inane-violence Snyder can direct rural scenes and character beats. Everyone knows this will have more action than Superman Returns, so it makes sense to emphasise the superb, Oscar-winning cast and the film's apparent seriousness.

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 374
RE: ARGUE! - 11/9/2012 10:23:22 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

I'm cautious about the new film. Returns was great - screw the haters - but this looks interesting. I fear it may turn the hero dark, which is not Superman's place. Returns was serious, but not dark.


I'd guess that it might be occasionally visually dark - give the kids the "cool" stuff they want from a Snyder movie - but pretty techicolour otherwise. Hopefully Warners learned from the "my God, talk about dodging a bullet!" response to the leaked costume /script details from the Burton/Cage Superman.

(in reply to homersimpson_esq)
Post #: 375
RE: Superman Returns - 11/9/2012 10:32:57 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: furrybastard
. Read John Byrne's Man of Steel series or Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely's All-Star Superman.


Well said. I was reading today about a page from All Star Superman which someone who was going to commit suicide credited as leading them to think otherwise (and no, I'm not crediting Morrison and Quitely with magic powers that can cure suicidal ideation) . It's a beautiful post. http://i.imgur.com/Q1nON.jpg

A lot of people disliked the Christ-analogy stuff in Superman Returns, but the character's power to inspire is perhaps the most fruitful area for cinematic adaptation. Idealism is not intrinsically uninteresting. And 'grim and gritty' is intrinsically interesting the same way emo is, i.e. not really.

(in reply to furrybastard)
Post #: 376
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 11:19:15 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not impressed by the Malicky trailer.


Come on, Malick's a genius! The last few minutes of The New World consist of one of the most moving and inspired sequences ever put on film (which I know will lead some wag to state that, at best, Malick, like Wagner, has great 15 minutes and rubbish hours, but still)

I thought it was pretty clever of Warners to show ramping-and-inane-violence Snyder can direct rural scenes and character beats. Everyone knows this will have more action than Superman Returns, so it makes sense to emphasise the superb, Oscar-winning cast and the film's apparent seriousness.



But my view of Malick (and it doesn't help you've referenced his worst film ) has nothing to do with whether I think it's appropriate for a trailer for a Superman film and whether I think it suggests a take that looks unimpressive

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 377
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 11:24:51 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


quote:

ORIGINAL: cerebusboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

I'm not impressed by the Malicky trailer.


Come on, Malick's a genius! The last few minutes of The New World consist of one of the most moving and inspired sequences ever put on film (which I know will lead some wag to state that, at best, Malick, like Wagner, has great 15 minutes and rubbish hours, but still)

I thought it was pretty clever of Warners to show ramping-and-inane-violence Snyder can direct rural scenes and character beats. Everyone knows this will have more action than Superman Returns, so it makes sense to emphasise the superb, Oscar-winning cast and the film's apparent seriousness.



But my view of Malick (and it doesn't help you've referenced his worst film ) has nothing to do with whether I think it's appropriate for a trailer for a Superman film and whether I think it suggests a take that looks unimpressive



Can I ask WHY you regard it as inappropriate? As I say, everyone one knows we'll get loads of Snyder-y action, so it makes sense to emphasise the other stuff. Plus young superman is, to a lot of people, associated with the bargain basement pish of Smallville, so it's cool they're making young Superman's world look both mythic and authentic (which Superman Returns accomplished too, in fairness)

Malick's "worst" still better than a lot of other directors' best

(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 378
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 11:37:26 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005
Snyder has limits, Superman is often a boring enough character and the makers of the trailer don't help that, etc. I just groaned when it turned up (I think it was on before TDKR at my cinema).

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 379
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 11:42:26 AM   
cerebusboy


Posts: 1552
Joined: 1/5/2006

Superman is not intrinsically boring (c.f. aforementioned All Star Superman). Snyder does indeed have, to riot in understatement, significant limitations so it makes sense that the trailer would downplay these YMMV of course.

But the trailer did have Russel Crowe or (depending which one you got) Kevin Costner voiceovers! That's pretty cool. And the audience would obviously have good memories of movies (Field of Dreams, Gladiator) featuring Costner, Crowe that include lingering shots of grain

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Post #: 380
RE: Talk about mothers - 11/9/2012 11:46:35 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54673
Joined: 1/10/2005
No idea what All Star Superman is - I stopped reading Supes comics years ago.

I liked Lois and Clark - other than that don't like the films, the comic and the old cartoons are pretty but it's still, for me, a problem character.

I think I might have seen an earlier trailer though - neither were in the one I saw. Just a lead I think follows in the tradition of poor Superman actors. Crowe and Costner do not raise my interest I'm afraid.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to cerebusboy)
Post #: 381
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