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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006

 
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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006 - 9/2/2013 5:44:47 PM   
Olaf


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Apparently Wilshere's only out for a few days, which is good. Wasn't expecting him to play in the Blackburn game anyway, so he won't be playing again til the Bayern match. Triple phew.

Also, how good was Sagna at CB? considering how woeful he's been this season, it was a great performance. and Ramsey is transforming into Arsenal's John O'Shea, was surprisingly competent at RB until the defensive substitution was made. (note to Wenger - THIS DOES NOT MEAN AARON RAMSEY IS A RB)

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006 - 9/2/2013 7:24:20 PM   
directorscut


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Remember Samir Nasri? One of the best, most exciting players in the PL? What happened to that guy?

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006 - 10/2/2013 7:38:17 PM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W
Similarly: remember Andre Santos? That guy we had at LB for a while? He's moved on loan to Gremio for the rest of the season.



RIP gentle prince



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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006 - 10/2/2013 7:48:45 PM   
OPEN YOUR EYES

 

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If only the Gremio fans knew what they were in for.So many happy faces.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2006 - 10/2/2013 9:57:40 PM   
directorscut


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OPEN YOUR EYES

If only the Gremio fans knew what they were in for.So many happy faces.


Those are the city's pie makers.

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Post #: 6185
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 10/2/2013 10:04:40 PM   
Olaf


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It's a little bit of a shame because he was actually okay in the first half of last season - not outstanding but not the liability he is now. Then he got injured and has been truly terrible ever since. (I think swapping shirts with RVP is what pushed Arsene over the edge though in terms of replacing him.)

I find something vaguely amusing about the way we seem to occasionally exile players to Brazil instead of selling them. I still have memories of Denilson.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 4:56:14 PM   
Nexus Wookie


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Arsenal out of the F.A Cup....

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Post #: 6187
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 4:57:11 PM   
erasheha1985

 

Posts: 69
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Sigh....so just top four to play for then, but that's the same as winning a trophy, right? Sounds like it was an awful performance.

< Message edited by erasheha1985 -- 16/2/2013 5:04:59 PM >

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 5:09:04 PM   
Nexus Wookie


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There were a number of problems with the team today, you could also say the tactics were poor. Arsenal had (realistically) more chance of winning the F.A cup than the CL. So the priority should've been on this game. And what the hell Wenger see's in that flop Gervinho we shall never know.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 9:13:46 PM   
Saltire


Posts: 1973
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From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nexus Wookie

There were a number of problems with the team today, you could also say the tactics were poor. Arsenal had (realistically) more chance of winning the F.A cup than the CL. So the priority should've been on this game. And what the hell Wenger see's in that flop Gervinho we shall never know.


He's a shit manager who has lost the plot the last five seasons (at the very least).

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Post #: 6190
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 10:49:08 PM   
Olaf


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From: 41N 93W
D-don't worry, we'll j-just focus on winning the Champions League. r-right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saltire


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nexus Wookie

There were a number of problems with the team today, you could also say the tactics were poor. Arsenal had (realistically) more chance of winning the F.A cup than the CL. So the priority should've been on this game. And what the hell Wenger see's in that flop Gervinho we shall never know.


He's a shit manager who has lost the plot the last five seasons (at the very least).


Hahaha wow, you're serious. Give me five reasons why a manager who's won the double twice, won the league unbeaten, reached the CL final, won multiple FA Cups and consistently achieved CL qualification despite working with a worse squad of players year on year is worse than, say, Brendan Rodgers. Otherwise I'm really struggling to comprehend that level of stupidity in one post.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 16/2/2013 11:43:52 PM   
directorscut


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WENGER EYEING BARCA STAR!


Is it Messi?
Is it Ineista?
Is it Xavi?
Is it Pique?
Is it Mascherano?
Is it Alves?
Is it Pedro?
Is it Sanchez?
Is it ... Boo-quets?

Could it even be ... Fabregas?


No, it's Victor Valdes.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/arsenal-transfers-victor-valdes-being-1713625 (Sorry for the tabloid link).

< Message edited by directorscut -- 16/2/2013 11:44:24 PM >


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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 12:24:20 AM   
Olaf


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Cesc is coming home one day. ONE DAY. ;__;

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 2:26:40 AM   
horribleives

 

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Look at the positives though, I hoyed a tenner on Blackburn to win at 9/1.
Magical.

As for Wenger though, putting today's result aside, he's a fucking awesome manager and anyone even vaguely connected to the purse-strings at Arsenal should take a long, hard look at themselves and imagine what a team of world-beaters they could have been if the club had shown some proper ambition over the last 6 years.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 2:19:46 PM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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I'm not going to dispute Arsene's record, no one can. But I think it is worthwhile having the discussion of whether he can keep the club moving forwards. Particularly when his team has fallen in cup competition twice against minnows this season.

If Arsenal have not competed financially then 50% of this blame must lie with Wenger. One of the highest paid managers in the world who imposed a salary cap in his own players that has caused stars to leave, while overpaying mediocrity. A manager who is said to have had a war chest of transfer funds, but frequently dithers over writing the cheque until the player has gone elsewhere. Who's eye for unrecognised talent has increasingly become a squint. And one who can't seem to motivate his team to succeed, who has said 4th is as good as a trophy. Who's tactics seem all over the place and whose substitutions can be baffling.

A great servant to the club. But one who looks increasingly less likely to propel the team forwards. My view if Arsene's is that at some point he stopped being a football manager and became a business man. And that doesn't fill the trophy cabinet.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 5:18:22 PM   
Olaf


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I appreciate a reasonably written post - I think you make some fair points as well. The thing is though, most of the things people mention about him haven't changed. personality-wise, he's basically the same as he was in 1996 or 2004. The only thing that's changed is his attitude to spending money - every season from when Arsene arrived up to the stadium move saw a positive net spend (except for one season where we got a massive pile of cash for Anelka), and all but three seasons (including this season) since have seen a huge negative net spend. So why would a trained economist suddenly decide to change his attitude on the key part of his approach to football management at such a convenient point? How does that make sense? How is it consistent with a guy who is, stubbornly, the same person he was when he arrived at the club? (albeit a lot greyer.)

And his transfer record is as good/bad as it's always been. Who's better, Santi Cazorla or Jose Reyes? Olivier Giroud or Francis Jeffers? But beyond that, quality is going to suffer in the face of the restrictions that he's almost certainly working under. The 'war chest' is and always will be a load of crap, quite frankly - the board haven't supported him at all in the last five years, and they've exploited the fact that he wouldn't stir up the internal politics of the club by speaking out against them. Maybe you can say his wages give him a personal motivation for that, but I still don't see him pulling a Fergie-style 'you're not real fans if you criticise the owners' line. He's been a professional and kept quiet, and the reward for that has been taking the vast majority of the press and fans' anger himself.

Certainly, Wenger isn't 100% free of blame for how this season has developed - he hasn't been flexible enough tactically in certain games, I guess. But his players have let him down repeatedly this season for various reasons, players he's placed his faith in (Gervinho, Vermaelen, Sagna are only a couple that come to almost immediately) and there's only so much you can pin on the manager for their performances. Frankly, I want him to retire because then morons with short-term memories will stop calling one of the most important, successful and groundbreaking managers in footballing history 'shit'. And then we can see who'd do better with this squad of players, and a mandate to make a profit on transfers every season, and a budget that can't compete with United, City or Chelsea. Any suggestions?

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 6:09:27 PM   
Rinc


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It's also worth pointing out that when Arsenal won the league under Wenger they were really only competing with Man Utd. Since then Chelsea and Man City have hit another level of spending so suddenly Arsenal are behind three teams who they can't compete with financially. To be fourth then is about right, if not better than expected as they probably can't compete with Spurs or Liverpool on spending either.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 6:52:40 PM   
superdan


Posts: 8229
Joined: 31/7/2008

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf
The thing is though, most of the things people mention about him haven't changed. personality-wise, he's basically the same as he was in 1996 or 2004. The only thing that's changed is his attitude to spending money - every season from when Arsene arrived up to the stadium move saw a positive net spend (except for one season where we got a massive pile of cash for Anelka), and all but three seasons (including this season) since have seen a huge negative net spend. So why would a trained economist suddenly decide to change his attitude on the key part of his approach to football management at such a convenient point? How does that make sense? How is it consistent with a guy who is, stubbornly, the same person he was when he arrived at the club? (albeit a lot greyer.)


Two words: David. Dein.


quote:


And his transfer record is as good/bad as it's always been. Who's better, Santi Cazorla or Jose Reyes? Olivier Giroud or Francis Jeffers? But beyond that, quality is going to suffer in the face of the restrictions that he's almost certainly working under. The 'war chest' is and always will be a load of crap, quite frankly - the board haven't supported him at all in the last five years, and they've exploited the fact that he wouldn't stir up the internal politics of the club by speaking out against them. Maybe you can say his wages give him a personal motivation for that, but I still don't see him pulling a Fergie-style 'you're not real fans if you criticise the owners' line. He's been a professional and kept quiet, and the reward for that has been taking the vast majority of the press and fans' anger himself.


I take your point but, to be fair, Jose Reyes had quite a significant impact when he signed, he scored a fair few goals and made the loss of Overmars less damaging. Franny Jeffers is an unfortunate one, he was very highly rated at the time (he was banging them in for fun for England U-21's) and but for some serious injuries may have been able to live up to the hype. Alas, it wasn't to be. Regardless, while I would agree with you that the board should shoulder the lions share of the blame for Arsenal's stagnation, if Wenger is making a martyr of himself to deflect attention away from them he is ultimately doing more harm to the club than protecting it. You haven't made a signing that's had the effect of a Henry, Viera, Fab, Pires or Campbell (for example) for a long time and that ultimately comes down to the manager (though I'll admit that Cazorla could turn out to be an exception).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
Since then Chelsea and Man City have hit another level of spending so suddenly Arsenal are behind three teams who they can't compete with financially. To be fourth then is about right, if not better than expected as they probably can't compete with Spurs or Liverpool on spending either.


Arsenal are owned by 3 billionaires (albeit apparently the poorest billionaires on the planet) and make more money than any club in the country bar Man Utd. There is no reason that the club shouldn't be competing financially, except for the avarice of the people at the top.

I would agree that Wenger is a remarkable manager and his record stands for itself. And I also feel that most of the anger directed his way should be aimed at the board. But not all of it. His decision making is looking more and more fallible with each passing (trophyless) season, and the longer he lets the rot set in the more he is in danger of tarnishing the deserved reputation he built for himself at the club.



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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 7:56:17 PM   
Olaf


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Fair point on David Dein, but that goes back to the board again. If I remember correctly, he left because of politics at that level and Wenger certainly hasn't been the same since. I didn't mean to suggest the point about the spending capacity separately as some kind of THOSE MEAN OTHER TEAMS WE SO POOR kind of way, it was just as you say a self-inflicted thing that's another product of the mentality at the top level of the club. The ambition thing is an interesting one - he's mocked for saying fourth place is like a trophy (not that I agreed with that, but that's by the by), and then he's mocked for saying the team could win the Champions League if they beat Bayern. I think his 'ambition' (is there any more debased word in modern football haha) is always going to rub someone up the wrong way.

And it's not so much a martyring thing - I think it's a mix of wanting to prove his critics wrong (let's face it, anyone who reaches that level has to be a little confident in their own abilities) and generally just wanting to get the club back up there amongst the top teams. It's depressing because his love for the club is clearly genuine, and I want him to win something again before he leaves, but it's just not going to happen. I just don't know who'd do a better job than him though, the club is in an absolute state for a lot of reasons and a change of manager won't fix very many of them.

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 8:49:52 PM   
Rinc


Posts: 12819
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
Since then Chelsea and Man City have hit another level of spending so suddenly Arsenal are behind three teams who they can't compete with financially. To be fourth then is about right, if not better than expected as they probably can't compete with Spurs or Liverpool on spending either.


Arsenal are owned by 3 billionaires (albeit apparently the poorest billionaires on the planet) and make more money than any club in the country bar Man Utd. There is no reason that the club shouldn't be competing financially, except for the avarice of the people at the top.


That's the difference though, Arsenal have owners whereas Chelsea and Man City have sugar daddies. Arsenal should be able to spend more but then again if they were to try to compete they wouldn't be making profits anymore. Arsenal are doing things the right way financially so why should they go into loads of debt like other clubs?

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 17/2/2013 9:14:49 PM   
directorscut


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Arsenal should be able to beat Bradford and a rubbish Blackburn team regardless of how much money they spend.

You also don't need a team of 50 million superstars to work at least as hard as the other team, which is my main complaint about Arsenal over the pass few seasons. They simply don't work or press hard enough off the ball and this must be down to Wenger not insisting upon a high pressure game.

Also, I don't think fans want Wenger to go out and splsah 100 million + on a couple of players. But it's the little things that do their head in. Like not paying an extra million for Mark Schwarzer during the January transfer window where it looked like Arsenal would win the league if they had any keeper other than Almunia. Or losing Mata over a couple of thousand pounds wages. Or losing their star players for not paying them competitive wages. Not paying van Persie an extra 75,000p/w is bloody stupid if Arsenal don't make the Champions League. And considering how shit the PL is this season had Arsenal kept van Persie they might have actually challenged for the title if they kept and would have more than covered van Persie's wages from the prize money. These are the types of investments that would help the club and make more money for the club, not send it down the road to finanical run.

Personally as much as I admire Wenger and consider him the most influential manager in PL history due the widespread changes he brought to the game in English, it does seem like the club is in stagnation and in need of a change and a fresh perspective.

< Message edited by directorscut -- 17/2/2013 9:17:36 PM >


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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 18/2/2013 11:32:52 AM   
superdan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc


quote:

ORIGINAL: superdan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rinc
Since then Chelsea and Man City have hit another level of spending so suddenly Arsenal are behind three teams who they can't compete with financially. To be fourth then is about right, if not better than expected as they probably can't compete with Spurs or Liverpool on spending either.


Arsenal are owned by 3 billionaires (albeit apparently the poorest billionaires on the planet) and make more money than any club in the country bar Man Utd. There is no reason that the club shouldn't be competing financially, except for the avarice of the people at the top.


That's the difference though, Arsenal have owners whereas Chelsea and Man City have sugar daddies. Arsenal should be able to spend more but then again if they were to try to compete they wouldn't be making profits anymore. Arsenal are doing things the right way financially so why should they go into loads of debt like other clubs?



I can respect prudence, it's laudable in an age where players are getting paid a fortune to turn out for Micky Mouse outfits in China and Russia. But it seems they've taken a prudent approach to spending and turned it into a Scrooge-like hawkishness that is in danger of actually harming their profits far more than signing the odd superstar. If they fail to qualify for the CL (which is quite possible) that will cost them a great deal, especially if they fail to qualify for any form of European competition (which isn't beyond the realm of possibility either). And the more they allow their rivals to sign the good and the great, the more they're going to struggle to compete in the future, which will continue the cycle and hasten the inevitable decline.

Arsenal are a rich club. They can afford to be ambitious without risking the future of the club, but it appears that isn't the direction the management wish to take. They are far richer than they were when Wenger took over (which wasn't long after they'd broken the British transfer record to land a world-class player, incidentally). The fans were told the move from Highbury would increase revenue flow (which it has) and allow them to compete far better in the transfer market (which it hasn't). Since they last won a trophy, Arsenal always looked one or two players from winning it again. Now they look 6 or 7 players away from winning it, which is a direct result of failing to invest in the team properly (for which both the board and Wenger are responsible).

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Post #: 6202
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 18/2/2013 11:42:04 AM   
Professor Moriarty

 

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Quite honestly. The whole concept of FFP and financial prudence would have a more resounding ring to it if Arsenal didn't have the highest ticket prices in the league (so I think, can't be arsed to check and if not there's probably only a quid in it) and Wenger didn't get paid 7.5M per year and the executives didn't give themselves 7-figure bonuses.

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Post #: 6203
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 18/2/2013 8:48:54 PM   
Saltire


Posts: 1973
Joined: 5/7/2011
From: Dundee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Olaf

D-don't worry, we'll j-just focus on winning the Champions League. r-right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Saltire


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nexus Wookie

There were a number of problems with the team today, you could also say the tactics were poor. Arsenal had (realistically) more chance of winning the F.A cup than the CL. So the priority should've been on this game. And what the hell Wenger see's in that flop Gervinho we shall never know.


He's a shit manager who has lost the plot the last five seasons (at the very least).


Hahaha wow, you're serious. Give me five reasons why a manager who's won the double twice, won the league unbeaten, reached the CL final, won multiple FA Cups and consistently achieved CL qualification despite working with a worse squad of players year on year is worse than, say, Brendan Rodgers. Otherwise I'm really struggling to comprehend that level of stupidity in one post.


Hardly a stupid post, more like a truthful one. There's dozens of reasons he's way way past it to manage there and if your blind in seeing that, then thats not the fault of me.

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Post #: 6204
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 1:31:34 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
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From: 41N 93W
No, it really is stupid. you said he was a shit manager and implied that he lost the plot even before the club stopped winning things and reaching finals '(at the very least)'. Both statements are patently wrong whether or not he's declined in recent years.

I notice you weren't able to give me those five reasons either. Or are you going to fall back on your previous 'he's not a nice guy' nonsense?

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RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 1:52:13 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
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From: 41N 93W
While you're at it, you can help me with a problem I've been having - name five managers who are available and would do a better job than Arsene Wenger. If you can manage this without meaningless rhetoric and accusing me of blindness (your own impeccable eyesight must have missed the posts above where I actually explained my position), that'd be brilliant.

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Post #: 6206
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 3:54:36 AM   
Saltire


Posts: 1973
Joined: 5/7/2011
From: Dundee
Your a supporter of him nothing wrong with that even though you can't see the rapid decline of the team under his tenure these last eight seasons. When Fergie has a season without winning, he tries to strengthen in the right areas in the summer then they come back stronger and be there or thereabouts the following season. Wenger doesn't do that, he gets rid of the good players that are left, and brings in players of less quality and mostly in positions that aren't needing touched. This has been going on for years now and Arsenal have dropped to a standard where they aren't even also-rans now. There's plenty of managers that could come in next season and you'd see a marked improvement in the team; face it, Wenger is not the manager he once was, the same thing happened to Cloughie. Then there's the stadium debate about how your having to pay that off - bollocks, other teams manage fine with less income coming in than Arsenal and most of your debt got repayed from Barcelona! There's also the supposed wage cap that restrict the very best going there when he himself is sitting on over 150,000 a week.

Come the end of this season after another trophyless campaign and missing out on the CL where will you be, where the likes of Liverpool are now; the only difference with them is they are trying to get back to near the top, whereas Wenger is more than happy with the status quo.

< Message edited by Saltire -- 19/2/2013 4:02:05 AM >

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Post #: 6207
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 11:43:05 AM   
Olaf


Posts: 23695
Joined: 26/2/2007
From: 41N 93W
quote:

Your a supporter of him nothing wrong with that even though you can't see the rapid decline of the team under his tenure these last eight seasons

I can see that, I'm just not stupid enough to think he's the only one responsible.

quote:

When Fergie has a season without winning, he tries to strengthen in the right areas in the summer then they come back stronger and be there or thereabouts the following season. Wenger doesn't do that, he gets rid of the good players that are left, and brings in players of less quality and mostly in positions that aren't needing touched. This has been going on for years now and Arsenal have dropped to a standard where they aren't even also-rans now.

And you really think this is a deliberate strategy by Wenger, and not a result of financial restrictions, despite the fact that he publicly said that he wanted those players to stay? That's cute.

quote:

There's plenty of managers that could come in next season and you'd see a marked improvement in the team; face it, Wenger is not the manager he once was, the same thing happened to Cloughie.

Names? That'd be more helpful than telling me to 'face it'.

quote:

Then there's the stadium debate about how your having to pay that off - bollocks, other teams manage fine with less income coming in than Arsenal and most of your debt got repayed from Barcelona!

The club's gross debt peaked at 412m in 2008, and it's currently at 253m (click). Barcelona have given Arsenal a total of 50m. Interest on this debt is also set a fixed rate until 2014. If I may step away from being of the 'please spend some money' persuasion and look at it neutrally, it's clear from the graph that the club's selling strategy, while having a catastrophic effect on the team's on-field performance - has managed to decrease the club's debt to a very serviceable level - which is something Wenger's successor will surely benefit from. (of course, shall we say 'less educated' observers will just see it as 'ahhh Wenger didn't want to spend money, this guy does!'.)

quote:

There's also the supposed wage cap that restrict the very best going there when he himself is sitting on over 150,000 a week.

I can't argue with this, I've long been opposed to both his salary and the cap on player wages. But the wage cap has been in place throughout his entire time at the club as far as I can tell - is this what you meant by the suggestion that he lost it long before we stopped appearing in finals and challenging for titles and stuff? Or are you just scrambling for things to beat Wenger with because you read it in the paper?

quote:

Come the end of this season after another trophyless campaign and missing out on the CL where will you be, where the likes of Liverpool are now; the only difference with them is they are trying to get back to near the top, whereas Wenger is more than happy with the status quo.

Liverpool are five points behind Arsenal and we have a game in hand. With the exception of Spurs (grrr), tell me which of the teams above us in the table should we be ahead of.

Still waiting on five reasons why Brendan is better. and still waiting on five viable replacements.

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Post #: 6208
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 4:02:12 PM   
horribleives

 

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Does Wenger have a bigger say in transfers than most managers or something? 'Cause I keep hearing (in this thread and elsewhere ) people blaming him for selling players but surely that's down to the owners not him?

< Message edited by horribleives -- 19/2/2013 4:04:25 PM >


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Post #: 6209
RE: Arsenal FC - 2013 - 19/2/2013 4:22:51 PM   
Olaf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

Does Wenger have a bigger say in transfers than most managers or something? 'Cause I keep hearing (in this thread and elsewhere ) people blaming him for selling players but surely that's down to the owners not him?


He doesn't - he's got enough sway at the club after 17 years to have the main say in buying players, but people only have to look at comments like You know when you sell Robin van Persie to Manchester United that [they will be top of the league] and know that he doesn't have the final word on selling players.

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