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Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:05:44 PM   
swordsandsandals


Posts: 12571
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: A magical forest
I just saw Blade Runner for the first time, but it was only the director's cut. I have a few questions.
  1. The Unicorn. What?
  2. What is the happy ending, that I apparently missed?
  3. Deckard is a replicant, right?
  4. Roy was nice all along, right?
  5. Erm... yeah.


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Post #: 1
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:18:47 PM   
Leomuse


Posts: 3401
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: The Valley of the Dolls
The director's cut does not have the happy ending.

(in reply to swordsandsandals)
Post #: 2
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:23:46 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
1. The unicorn can be seen as a representation of Deckard's supposed implanted memories. Gaff (Olmos) seems to know everything about Deckard and the last origami figure he creates is a unicorn.

2. Deckard escapes with Rachel

3. Yes

4. Yes



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Post #: 3
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:37:37 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya

3. Yes



He did kill all those people, though. Which wasn't very nice.


nb: I think if it's a post about a specific film, even if it's a 'musing' it should probably go in Favourite Films! Don't look at me, I just work here.


< Message edited by Mikey C -- 28/5/2007 1:39:54 PM >


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Post #: 4
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:40:21 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya

3. Yes



He did kill all those people, though. Which wasn't very nice.



If you are talking about the ones he killed when he escaped from the work colony, I'd say that was self-defense, since he was being used as a slave. As for the other people he kills, Tyrell included, I think he has at least some measurement of justification.

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Post #: 5
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:43:21 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsandsandals

I just saw Blade Runner for the first time, but it was only the director's cut. I have a few questions.
  1. The Unicorn. What?
  2. What is the happy ending, that I apparently missed?
  3. Deckard is a replicant, right?
  4. Roy was nice all along, right?
  5. Erm... yeah.



The Unicorn, as Kaz says, represents Deckards implanted memories. Adama, sorry GAFF () knows about the Unicorn memories in the same way that Deckard knows about Rachels implanted memories of the baby Spiders.

The Happy Ending was tacked on to the original studio cut and showed Rachel and Deckard driving off into the countryside (totally not in keeping with the dark look of the rest of the movie). Apparently they used footgae lifted from the Shining to show a car driving off into the mountains, happily ever after. It was awful.

Deckard is indeed a replicant. Although just who knows about that is another matter. Its clear Gaff does but does anyone else in the Police department? And was Deckard first brought in as a Replicant would be better suited to catch another replicant? Questions!

Roy Batty was indeed 'nice'! He was simply after longer life, and went about it in a violent way (or the only way that he knew how). He was basically a slave 'Quite an experience to live in fear isn't it?'. and he and the others simply wanted to live a better life, and knew that they had a date when they would simply die. And they wanted 'more life'. It's why Zora is just eeking a living as a dancing girl. Normal lives in a world that wouldn't allow them to have one.




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Post #: 6
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:45:03 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C

nb: I think if it's a post about a specific film, even if it's a 'musing' it should probably go in Favourite Films! Don't look at me, I just work here.



I don't agree, as it may not be the posters 'Favourite Film'? It's a musing about a movie, hence Movie Musings? (sorry, just bored of everything being moved!! )

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Post #: 7
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:45:29 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya

3. Yes



He did kill all those people, though. Which wasn't very nice.



If you are talking about the ones he killed when he escaped from the work colony, I'd say that was self-defense, since he was being used as a slave. As for the other people he kills, Tyrell included, I think he has at least some measurement of justification.


He killed the eye man, and JF Sebastian, who were just geeks messing around really. They never had contact with Nexus 6's, living on earth, so were probably unaware of how they were treated.  They may not have even realised how human they were.
Batty was a sociopath.

< Message edited by Mikey C -- 28/5/2007 1:46:00 PM >


_____________________________

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how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
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Post #: 8
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:51:02 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya
If you are talking about the ones he killed when he escaped from the work colony, I'd say that was self-defense, since he was being used as a slave. As for the other people he kills, Tyrell included, I think he has at least some measurement of justification.


Thats the thing. The whole reason for his murders are down to an Android wanting longer life. To not be treated and used as a slave and to live a normal life. (Something the Animatrix ripped off wholesale!). Has an android got a right to live a normal life if it think for itself? As Kaz says he kills the people in the Colony they escaped from purely just to escape the life of a slave, and then his actions on Earth are all intended to get himself a normal life, and extend his switch off date.

You could argue that Rachel, when finding out she's a replicant, doesn't go on a murderous rampage to get herself more life, but then it all comes down to androids feeling emotions which they aren't able to handle properly. (Deckard all through the movie and Roy after he's killed Tyrell).



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Post #: 9
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:52:28 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C

nb: I think if it's a post about a specific film, even if it's a 'musing' it should probably go in Favourite Films! Don't look at me, I just work here.



I don't agree, as it may not be the posters 'Favourite Film'? It's a musing about a movie, hence Movie Musings? (sorry, just bored of everything being moved!! )


Which is why I haven't moved it. The rules are posted here; we wouldn't have to move threads if people read it:
http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=1353218


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how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
my website www.mikeynet.co.uk
My internet ramblings

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Post #: 10
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:54:42 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
He killed the eye man, and JF Sebastian, who were just geeks messing around really.


He had no choice with Sebastian at that point as he had witnessed Tyrells murder. I suppose he did go about extending his life on Earth in a violent way, but his speech at the end showed that while being an Android he knew the value of living a normal life and how valuable things like memories were. (If indeed 'all those moments' actually weren't just implanted memories to begin with!)


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Post #: 11
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:54:52 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsandsandals

I just saw Blade Runner for the first time, but it was only the director's cut. I have a few questions.
  1. The Unicorn. What?
  2. What is the happy ending, that I apparently missed?
  3. Deckard is a replicant, right?
  4. Roy was nice all along, right?
  5. Erm... yeah.




The Unicorn, as Kaz says, represents Deckards implanted memories. Adama, sorry GAFF () knows about the Unicorn memories in the same way that Deckard knows about Rachels implanted memories of the baby Spiders.

The Happy Ending was tacked on to the original studio cut and showed Rachel and Deckard driving off into the countryside (totally not in keeping with the dark look of the rest of the movie). Apparently they used footgae lifted from the Shining to show a car driving off into the mountains, happily ever after. It was awful.

Deckard is indeed a replicant. Although just who knows about that is another matter. Its clear Gaff does but does anyone else in the Police department? And was Deckard first brought in as a Replicant would be better suited to catch another replicant? Questions!

Roy Batty was indeed 'nice'! He was simply after longer life, and went about it in a violent way (or the only way that he knew how). He was basically a slave 'Quite an experience to live in fear isn't it?'. and he and the others simply wanted to live a better life, and knew that they had a date when they would simply die. And they wanted 'more life'. It's why Zora is just eeking a living as a dancing girl. Normal lives in a world that wouldn't allow them to have one.





The ending that was originally shown in theatres was indeed horrible, the Director's Cut ditto is immensely superior.
Harrison Ford still denies that his character was a replicant, and Scott insists that he was. That was one of the reasons he decided to include the unicorn dream sequence as a clue to Deckard's true identity. I'm not surprised about Ford's statements about his role though, he and Scott did not get along, to put it mildly.
As for other clues concerning Deckard, there's a scene where his eyes glow in a similar fashion to the replicants and also Gaff's line at the end : "You've done a man's job, Sir." Which can be interpreted in different ways.
I also agree with you on the Batty question, Pablo, he is not evil, he just wants to live and has immense difficulty coping with the concept of emotions.


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Post #: 12
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:55:45 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
Which is why I haven't moved it. The rules are posted here; we wouldn't have to move threads if people read it:
http://www.empireonline.com/forum/tm.asp?m=1353218


I wasn't having a go (hence the )

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Post #: 13
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 1:59:03 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
He killed the eye man, and JF Sebastian, who were just geeks messing around really.


He had no choice with Sebastian at that point as he had witnessed Tyrells murder. I suppose he did go about extending his life on Earth in a violent way, but his speech at the end showed that while being an Android he knew the value of living a normal life and how valuable things like memories were. (If indeed 'all those moments' actually weren't just implanted memories to begin with!)



I'd be quite scared if you would think that's some kind of justification. It's a motive, sure, but it's not a justification. I mean, I'm sure Ian Brady knows the values of memories and the value of living a normal life as well.

Batty's motivations were hugely selfish - it was about extending his lifespan, about him not dying. He's an interesting character, certainly, and you can understand how he was tipped over the edge - and has been said, he couldn't handle his emotions. But that's not really an excuse.

< Message edited by Mikey C -- 28/5/2007 2:00:42 PM >


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how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
my website www.mikeynet.co.uk
My internet ramblings

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Post #: 14
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:00:03 PM   
Caster


Posts: 5608
Joined: 30/9/2005
quote:

As for other clues concerning Deckard, there's a scene where his eyes glow in a similar fashion to the replicants


Exactly.  It still amazes me that people still question his replicant status, when it's clearly shown he is.

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Post #: 15
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:01:13 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya
I also agree with you on the Batty question, Pablo, he is not evil, he just wants to live and has immense difficulty coping with the concept of emotions.


That's the thing. The Voigt Campff test highlight the fact that the Replicants can't handle human emotion. So for Roy, who knows he is a Replicant and trying to be 'more human', knowing he only has a limited time to live understandbly effects him to the point of killing the man who created him. In fact, you could say who killed who first?

Kaz, have you read Future Noir - The Making of Bladerunner? I recommend it, its a great book.


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Post #: 16
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:04:35 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
He killed the eye man, and JF Sebastian, who were just geeks messing around really.


He had no choice with Sebastian at that point as he had witnessed Tyrells murder. I suppose he did go about extending his life on Earth in a violent way, but his speech at the end showed that while being an Android he knew the value of living a normal life and how valuable things like memories were. (If indeed 'all those moments' actually weren't just implanted memories to begin with!)



Exactly, his methods were questionable, but that was also due to the fact that Batty is distraught and has difficulty controlling his supposed emotions. It's true that he had no choice with J.F. and you can see that it bothered him greatly.
As for Hannibal Chew (the Eye man) that was a bit unnecessary, but again, an act of desperation. Kowalski (Brion James) is not nice though.

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Post #: 17
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:04:57 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'd be quite scared if you would think that's some kind of justification. It's a motive, sure, but it's not a justification. I mean, I'm sure Ian Brady knows the values of memories and the value of living a normal life as well.


Comparing Ian Brady to an Android in a science fiction film is ridiculous.
What are you saying? Because I think Roy Batty's actions in a movie were understandable for an ANDROID that I must also feel that Ian Brady had justification in killing kids and dumping their bodies in moorland?!

I'm saying that for an Android, built for labour, used as a slave who knew the exact day that he was going to die, who came back to Earth to find a way of extending his life, that some of his actions (for a machine not built ot be able to handle human emotions) were understandable for a machine told by his creator that he could do nothing to stop it. It doesn't in any way compare to real life and child killers......


< Message edited by pablohoolio -- 28/5/2007 2:08:28 PM >


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Post #: 18
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:09:30 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'd be quite scared if you would think that's some kind of justification. It's a motive, sure, but it's not a justification. I mean, I'm sure Ian Brady knows the values of memories and the value of living a normal life as well.


Comparing Ian Brady to an Android in a science fiction film is ridiculous.

What are you saying? Because I think Roy Batty's actions in a movie were understandable for an ANDROID that I must also feel that Ian Brady had justification in killing kids and dumping their bodies in moorland?!




I was being hyperbolic, obviously. My point wasn't to compare the actions (that would be sick and absurd, making a mockery of a very real and horrific crime) but was related to your point about knowing the value of memories and being human, etc. I'm saying that in real life you wouldn't think twice about thinking Batty was a nutjob and that you're applying some kind of different ethical logic because it's fiction.


quote:



I'm saying that for an Android, built for labour, used as a slave who knew the exact day that he was going to die, who came back to Earth to find a way of extending his life, that some of his actions (for a machine not built ot be able to handle human emotions) were understandable for a machine told by his creator that he could do nothing to stop it. It doesn't in any way compare to real life and child killers......


Well, durh. But I'm saying that's not a justification.


< Message edited by Mikey C -- 28/5/2007 2:12:50 PM >


_____________________________

the kind of place where there might be a monster or some kind of weird mirror.
how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
my website www.mikeynet.co.uk
My internet ramblings

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Post #: 19
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:13:19 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'd be quite scared if you would think that's some kind of justification. It's a motive, sure, but it's not a justification. I mean, I'm sure Ian Brady knows the values of memories and the value of living a normal life as well.


Comparing Ian Brady to an Android in a science fiction film is ridiculous.

What are you saying? Because I think Roy Batty's actions in a movie were understandable for an ANDROID that I must also feel that Ian Brady had justification in killing kids and dumping their bodies in moorland?!




Indeed.
Like I said in an earlier post, Batty's methods are questionable, but I'd still say that the treatment of him and his desperate wish to live grants him at least some measurement of justification. It's also incorrect to state that the only thing Batty wants is to extend his own life and he doesn't care about anyone else. We are shown many examples of his wish to protect Pris (Hannah) and extend her life as well.

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Post #: 20
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:15:45 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'm saying that in real life you wouldn't think twice about thinking Batty was a nutjob and that you're applying some kind of different ethical logic because it's fiction.



Not really. I'm applying different ethical logic to it because he's an android. He isn't human.

If the character was human I'd have totally different views and CLEARLY his actions would be unforgivable. But he is a machine. A machine that can't handle emotion. And that explains his actions. I'm not saying he is right in what he does, but for a machine trying to find a way to stop it's impending death, that can't handle human emotions, it's understandable that it would act that way.

And the speech at the end is a way of showing that all the while he simply wanted a better life (but went about it in the only way he, as a machine, knew how).

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Post #: 21
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:17:55 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya

quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'd be quite scared if you would think that's some kind of justification. It's a motive, sure, but it's not a justification. I mean, I'm sure Ian Brady knows the values of memories and the value of living a normal life as well.


Comparing Ian Brady to an Android in a science fiction film is ridiculous.

What are you saying? Because I think Roy Batty's actions in a movie were understandable for an ANDROID that I must also feel that Ian Brady had justification in killing kids and dumping their bodies in moorland?!




Indeed.
Like I said in an earlier post, Batty's methods are questionable, but I'd still say that the treatment of him and his desperate wish to live grants him at least some measurement of justification. It's also incorrect to state that the only thing Batty wants is to extend his own life and he doesn't care about anyone else. We are shown many examples of his wish to protect Pris (Hannah) and extend her life as well.


I WASN'T COMPARING THEM. I was using Brady as an examply to show flaws in your logic!!!! Crikey.

Anyway, I had forgotten about his love for Pris. That's still a selfish instinct though; to protect you and your 'world' - ie those you love and who love you.

I'm not arguing whether or not Batty was evil, by the way. He was insane, and he was created that way, so it's not his fault. He thought that his killing was the only way to acheive his goal, which is what sociopaths do. And of course he was a sociopath - he hasn't got properly mature emotions!


_____________________________

the kind of place where there might be a monster or some kind of weird mirror.
how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
my website www.mikeynet.co.uk
My internet ramblings

(in reply to Kazuya)
Post #: 22
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:19:01 PM   
Mikey C


Posts: 5436
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: The internet
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
I'm saying that in real life you wouldn't think twice about thinking Batty was a nutjob and that you're applying some kind of different ethical logic because it's fiction.



Not really. I'm applying different ethical logic to it because he's an android. He isn't human.

If the character was human I'd have totally different views and CLEARLY his actions would be unforgivable. But he is a machine. A machine that can't handle emotion. And that explains his actions. I'm not saying he is right in what he does, but for a machine trying to find a way to stop it's impending death, that can't handle human emotions, it's understandable that it would act that way.

And the speech at the end is a way of showing that all the while he simply wanted a better life (but went about it in the only way he, as a machine, knew how).


Yes. Yes, obviously. Batty is in many ways sympathetic. But I was arguing whether or not he was a good guy.


edit: I think we're now discussing moral relativism, which is a bit off topic. I'm going out now so I shall concede that we're probably going round in circles now.
We all agree that Blade Runner is ace, though, right?


< Message edited by Mikey C -- 28/5/2007 2:20:50 PM >


_____________________________

the kind of place where there might be a monster or some kind of weird mirror.
how can they hear us say those words, and still they don't believe us?
my website www.mikeynet.co.uk
My internet ramblings

(in reply to pablohoolio)
Post #: 23
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:22:27 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio

Kaz, have you read Future Noir - The Making of Bladerunner? I recommend it, its a great book.



Yes I have my friend, an excellent read





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Post #: 24
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:22:34 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C
We all agree that Blade Runner is ace, though, right?



Oh yes! (Got the Matrix in HD; yes, yes, second two aren't that good!) and there was a leaflet saying 'Bladerunner HD - Coming in October'. I nearly wet myself....


< Message edited by pablohoolio -- 28/5/2007 2:24:14 PM >


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Post #: 25
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:23:59 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikey C

We all agree that Blade Runner is ace, though, right?



We can certainly agree on that my friend

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"Bleed, bastard."

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Post #: 26
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:28:59 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya
Yes I have my friend, an excellent read



Love the way there are lot's of things in that book I never thought of (the way each character is associated with an Animal for example - Leon - Tortoise / Roy - Howls like a Wolf and a white Dove / Deckard - Unicorn / Tyrell - an Owl / Zhora - Snake etc). Wonder what significance is it that Deckard is the only character associated with a mythological creature?!

(Think I'm getting too deep into this now! )



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Post #: 27
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:31:28 PM   
swordsandsandals


Posts: 12571
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: A magical forest
I think Scott was obviously trying to make us question at what point someone/something becomes human, which, form the evidence of this thread, he evidently succeeded in. I still think that Roy's moment at the end was a bit of a drastic character change, but it was a nice twist. SPOILERSBest death scene ever.SPOILERS END
Why did he stick a nail through his hand, apart from a kind of christ allegory? Was it to see if he still felt pain?

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawlinson

Swords is right about everything.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

Swords smells like bum.



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Post #: 28
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:36:47 PM   
pablohoolio


Posts: 5027
Joined: 13/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: swordsandsandals
Why did he stick a nail through his hand, apart from a kind of christ allegory? Was it to see if he still felt pain?


According to Future Noir, he did this as his hand cramped up (showing he was about to die) to revitalise himself, like an adreniline shot I suppose.

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"It's all.... part of the plan...."

(in reply to swordsandsandals)
Post #: 29
RE: Blade Runner - 28/5/2007 2:51:06 PM   
Kazuya


Posts: 7978
Joined: 23/8/2006
From: The Eighth Dimension c/o Buckaroo Banzai
quote:

ORIGINAL: pablohoolio


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kazuya
Yes I have my friend, an excellent read



Love the way there are lot's of things in that book I never thought of (the way each character is associated with an Animal for example - Leon - Tortoise / Roy - Howls like a Wolf and a white Dove / Deckard - Unicorn / Tyrell - an Owl / Zhora - Snake etc). Wonder what significance is it that Deckard is the only character associated with a mythological creature?!

(Think I'm getting too deep into this now! )




Yes that was very, very interesting, and it underlines just how layered Blade Runner really is, perhaps Ford just believed he was in a standard sci-fi film, but as Ridley Scott has also mentioned  many times, there is much more to it.
As for Deckard's association with the Unicorn, it could be because of his elusive, single-purposed nature. Perhaps Deckard himself is one of the original replicants created, but reprogrammed by Tyrell or Gaff to hunt the others. To represents some amount of justice for a short amount of time.
Then perhaps Gaff is the true Blade Runner?

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(in reply to pablohoolio)
Post #: 30
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