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RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 9:06:19 AM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

quote:

ORIGINAL: rupert303

sorry, but most star trek is a bit poo. utopian society only leads to a dynamic of smugness.

Or something to aspire to instead of once again putting to much control into the hands of the machines, having them inevitabily turn on us...

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to rupert303)

Post #: 91

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 1:52:47 PM

Paap28

Posts: 391
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Huddersfield

The only Star Trek movies I've seen is The Undiscovered Country and First Contact both decent, however before the release of the new Star Trek I'm going to buy all three seasons of the orignal Star Trek and the first 7 films just to get up to date on Captain Kirk's adventures.

_____________________________

" I believe that all of life's answers can be found in the right Spielberg film. "

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Post #: 92

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 1:56:23 PM

Tech_Noir

Posts: 20203
Joined: 12/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon

quote:

ORIGINAL: rupert303

sorry, but most star trek is a bit poo. utopian society only leads to a dynamic of smugness.

Or something to aspire to instead of once again putting to much control into the hands of the machines, having them inevitabily turn on us...

Hope you're not putting down the already legendarily brilliant Battlestar Galactica.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 93

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 2:07:58 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Hell to the no. I love BSG.

I'm simply saying I admire Star Trek's belief that mankind can actually have a future where we haven't monumentally fucked things up. I don't think of it as smug but inspiring.

I was merely pointing out that the opposite to that is normally a bleak dystopia where mankind has once again put control of their lives into the hands of machines... to their eternal doom! BSG, Terminator, The Matrix, 2001 etc etc

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Tech_Noir)

Post #: 94

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 2:10:26 PM

Tech_Noir

Posts: 20203
Joined: 12/10/2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon

Hell to the no. I love BSG.

Then I'll let you off.

Question about positive intrepretations of the future, does it still fly?

Will the new Trek movie have the same problem as Superman, no longer working for the modern public.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 95

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 2:12:34 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

I don't think the modern public are as cynical and miserable as we all think. While some are bemoaning the fact that all blockbusters seem to be 'too dark' and 'lacking in fun', I think Star Trek will be the film next year that will be the summer's rollicking, old fashioned, adventure flick...albeit in space.

Remember, people had the same concerns over Pirates of the Caribbean. In theory, there's no way that should have been such a huge hit but it struck a chord with audiences because it was fun.

< Message edited by Timon -- 31/10/2008 2:13:37 PM >

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Tech_Noir)

Post #: 96

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 3:46:56 PM

Karl Crutchley

Posts: 792
Joined: 25/6/2007
From: Grey Britain

If there is any justice then the new Trek will be as much fun as my personal favourite - THE VOYAGE HOME. That one could almost work as a standalone movie, and seeing the crew trying to fit into the eighties was brilliant.
KHAN is a close 2nd though.

But someone please tell me, why do they always see fit to completely trash the Enterprise in all of these films? I don't remember it taking such beatings in any of the series.............

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 97

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 31/10/2008 3:56:32 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18905
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tech_Noir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timon

Hell to the no. I love BSG.

Then I'll let you off.

Question about positive intrepretations of the future, does it still fly?

Will the new Trek movie have the same problem as Superman, no longer working for the modern public.

Well I think the reason that Superman didn't work is that they toned down the positive aspects of the character and tried to move him into more grown up terrirtory. Supes works best when he is the cheesey boy scout and the bumbling reporter.

I think Star Trek will embrace its roots, the "high seas adventure in space" rather than a boring utopia. I think between Meyers in the movies and Ron Moore on DS9 there was a big move away from those aspects which really came into place with Next Gen (whose first few seasons were a reaction against Kahn. Funny how the show got better once the Borg came into it...)

The characters should be idealistic but if you make a society without conflict there isn't much drama. It won't be as dark as Battlestar thats for sure, and I think you will agree, that makes for a refreshing change in space opera these days.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

(in reply to Tech_Noir)

Post #: 98

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 2/11/2008 10:06:11 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18905
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

So I bought Insurrection and Nemesis this weekend to finish out my film collection of the series.

Insurrection

Haven't seen this one since it was released in the cinema (nearly a decade ago. Gulp!) and remember finding it mediocre. Star Wars hype was in its heyday and that magnificent Phantom Menace trailer played beforehand.

So it was some surprise that I enjoyed a lot of the character moments in the film. It is by far the warmest Next Gen Trek film and one of the few times where I felt that this crew do have chemistry with one another. Even in the TV show things were awfully stoic. The overlapping dialogue at the start and humour between the cast made me appreciate the film a lot more.

It is also one of the Star Trek movies that have a real issue at the centre. I do think it is fumbled in the execution. The Admiral is correct. These people do have warp capabilities. It is not their planet and I think the old "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few�or the one� applies here.

I have heard that there was a darker draft of this film but Stewart argued for a lighter touch which I agree with. If I had one suggestion it would have been to have made the skin stretched aliens good and the good village people the bad. It would have been a nice twist that would have played on expectations � something which the 60s show did well.

They should have also held back from talking about the Dominion and the wider universe storyline. At most the casual viewer will know of Borg and the old Trek villains. The new ones are not really in the public conscience.

All in all, it is the lightest of the films with a nearly none existent villain, little real threat to the characters and a denouncement conveyed by a beam of light.

Nemesis

This is one where the wheels really came off and I lay the blame firmly at the feet of Brett Spiner and his insistence on have an equal storyline to Stewart. One of the things the film does right is the idea of age which has been there since Generations. But like I say the B-4 subplot feels totally tacked on and unnecessary.

If Spiner really wanted to see Data dead he should have went the whole hog. The introduction of ANOTHER model is just lazy and an obvious fob to an actor. He also insists on singing in these films which I takes me out the film. Bet you it is in his contract.

I hate Data. He was annoying and never really developed. A one note character and I cannot fathom how Picard would see him in the same light as Kirk/Spock. B4 makes all that much worse and I wish they actually had the guts to get rid of him. If he wanted to come back I'm sure his evil brother could have been brought back to fight the crew.

I did like some of the battles and I don't really see the Kahn comparisons. It's an interesting problem � keep the captain alive but disable the ship. Unfortunately the Next Gen movies were never really able to give the space ships the sense of grandeur the earlier films had. I think this is to do with the fact that those directors saw the Enterprise as a central character and shot it as such whereas effects shots are sent out to some technicians who don't have the eye for the awe inspiring. Look at the final shot of the ship in dock � the older films would have sold that scene much much better.

The film was sold as the final adventure but it never really felt that was the case � even with everyone saying buy to each other. Unlike the Undiscovered Country I felt there was maybe a story left (one thankfully without Data)

So if I was to do another one I would suggest �

Make sure it is something Stewart can get his teeth into. Without him this series would not work. The only times I really felt him engaged with the material were when he cried in Generations and his anger in First Contact. The last two films he didn't have a relatable threat.

Keep Data away. Not even his evil twin. And no B4. Also no more damn singing (it can't be a coincidence that the generally accepted three worst Treks all take time out for a singsong)

Give the other cast members something to do. Poor Crusher, who I think should have been the confident to Picard, was regulated to the background allowing Trois to take on her role.

If you can't find a position for Worf don't use him. Having him stumble into films and then being the comedy relief is a bit annoying and I can't imagine Michael Dorn being happy.

Get Nicolas Meyers involved. Would be really interested to see his take on the Next Gen crew.

None of this will happen of course as I think that crew is done. And if they did come back the demands from each of them would burden the film down. Neither are without some merit but are held back by scripts and contractual obligations (which the first 6 had as well � they were just integrated a whole lot better) and no real sense of scale or adventure.

< Message edited by Rgirvan44 -- 2/11/2008 10:09:01 PM >

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

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Post #: 99

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 2/11/2008 11:10:36 PM

directorscut

Posts: 9864
Joined: 30/9/2005

I like Insurrection because it gets back to what Star Trek is about: exploration and discovering new worlds and new civilisations. It wasn't just a string of action scenes which all the other TNG films are.

Nemesis is definitely the worst of all Star Trek films. I think it's the only one that I probably won't watch again. I could watch The Final Frontier again because though it's very flawed it has good stuff as well. The only moderately interesting scene in Nemesis is the space fight the the Romulans in the middle of the film (ironic I know considering what I said above). The ending pissed me off no end. Oh, we'll just kill one of the most popular characters in the series and replaced him with an identical twin brother. Bullshit! That's even worse than the ending of Face/Off. Data's search for humanity was one of the cornerstones of TNG and to kill him off was a disgrace.

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Post #: 100

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 2/11/2008 11:19:44 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18905
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

I like Insurrection because it gets back to what Star Trek is about: exploration and discovering new worlds and new civilisations. It wasn't just a string of action scenes which all the other TNG films are.

Nemesis is definitely the worst of all Star Trek films. I think it's the only one that I probably won't watch again. I could watch The Final Frontier again because though it's very flawed it has good stuff as well. The only moderately interesting scene in Nemesis is the space fight the the Romulans in the middle of the film (ironic I know considering what I said above). The ending pissed me off no end. Oh, we'll just kill one of the most popular characters in the series and replaced him with an identical twin brother. Bullshit! That's even worse than the ending of Face/Off. Data's search for humanity was one of the cornerstones of TNG and to kill him off was a disgrace.

But after seven seasons and four movies he didn't really develop. The emotion chip disappeared pretty quickly and unlike Spock you never got any sense of a journey for him.

Maybe I am biased as I hated the character but his hogging of the subplots in the films bugged the heck out me.

_____________________________

It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

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Post #: 101

RE: The Star Trek Series - 22/1/2009 12:14:22 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

I'm seriously considering picking up Insurrection if I see it cheap as I agree with some of DC's points but I have my own gripes with it;

Cons:

- The 'Good Human Aliens' - they're just humans. Pure aryan humans. That's it. The Son'a - evil, twisted beings. It would have been better to reverse that dynamic so how so that the Enterprise crew weren't simply throwing down to protect The Stepford Families.
- The Worf humour
- All-American child

Saying that... the nebula battle was well done, each character has some nice moments, the Captains Yacht/Federation Scout Ship duel is cool so perhaps I'll get it if I see it cheap.

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 102

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 22/1/2009 4:44:05 PM

Worldz

Posts: 38
Joined: 22/1/2009

Wrath of Khan
First Contact

(in reply to Wedge)

Post #: 103

RE: Star Trek Films - 16/2/2009 12:19:54 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Can't wait for JJ Abrams new film though but with a series like this, the FX come second to the characters. You weren't there for space battles (well actually you may have been), you were there for the friendship and the bickering between the crew. It's doubtful though it this age of quick cuts and impatient audiences that we'll get scenes with the Enterprise coming and going from Spacedock in such a majestic fashion. That's one of the great things about The Motion Picture. You have a 10 min scene of Kirk inspecting the new Enterprise to Jerry Goldsmith's sweeping score.

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Worldz)

Post #: 104

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 10:52:26 AM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

I remember getting this teaser poster from my local cinema and thinking it was the coolest thing in the world.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 105

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 11:07:28 AM

HIM

Posts: 9685
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

First Contact was the first Trek film I ever saw at the cinema and it was at a time when I wasn't even a fan. But it blew me away none the less. I didn't actually get into Star Trek until around 1998. I'd just left school and was starting college and being a student I typically stayed up until about 3 a.m. every night. I remember one night there was 'nothing' on until I finally settled on an episode of Deep Space Nine on Sky One, purely because it was the best of a bad bunch. To my surprise though I really enjoyed it. And thus my love of all things Trek blossomed. To this day First Contact is my favourite movie and DS9 my favourite tv show.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 106

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 5:47:13 PM

HIM

Posts: 9685
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

Over the past week or so I've watched all 10 Star Trek movies and here's my top 10:

1 - First Contact
2 - Undiscovered Country
3 - Nemesis (yes, you read that right!)
4 - Wrath of Khan
5 - Generations
6 - Insurrection
7 - Final Frontier
8 - Voyage Home
9 - Search for Spock
10 - The Motion Picture

I've gone into great deal about why I love Nemesis in the Star Trek thread in Future Films, but to summarise I think it has more depth than Khan and, but for a poor choice in director, would have been the best of them all.

Also it must be noted that I love all the films. The reason The Motion Picture is last is because even though it starts off well (as Timon has mentioned, when you first see the Enterprise it's awe inspiring) but it's just too plodding and pondering after that. For a film running at over 2hr 10mins, not a lot actually happens. And the endless scenes of entering the various V'Ger inner chambers does go on for far too long. Plus Wrath of Khan pretty much hits the reset button anyway and starts off in the same way as The Motion Picture, only more succinctly.

(in reply to HIM)

Post #: 107

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 5:53:28 PM

HIM

Posts: 9685
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

Here's my defense of Star Trek Nemesis (copied from Star Trek thread in Future Films, so it might not make sense as it's combining several different posts):

OK just watched Nemesis and I still love it! With regards to Shinzon's motives he clearly explains these. He may be human but he was raised as a Reman. They showed him compassion, cared for him and protected him. And Reman's are bred to fight. To conquer. It's in their very nature, much like the Jem'Hadar. Once he'd conquered the Romulan Star Empire he needed Picard in order to survive. So by luring Picard and the Enterprise he was bound to start a war with the Federation. Hence why he wanted the positions of every ship in the fleet. His initial plans weren't to conquer the Federation, that was merely a cause of his actions in both conquering Romulus and killing Picard.

It's alluded to that Shinzon still has at least some humanity in him. He hates Picard because he knows if their roles had been reversed he (Shinzon) wouldn't have had to endure the torture and brutality of the Reman dilithium mines. But at the same time he owes everything to the Reman's for saving him. It's nature versus nurture. As mentioned, he's still human and part him feels emense guilt for what he's doing and part of him wishes he'd had the opportunities that Picard had. There's a wonderful scene between the two where Shinzon (in justifying his actions) says that he's a mirror for Picard and if the situations had been reversed Picard would have done exactly as Shinzon had. Picard retorts that he is a mirror for Shinzon also. Shinzon acknowledges this be saying "Not for long." Essentially Shinzon wants rid of Picard because he doesn't want to look at himself in the mirror. Deep down he doesn't like what he sees.

Also, I thought Tom Hardy was a great villian. Reminded me a lot of Juaquin Phoenix's Commodus in Gladiator. The space battles were excellent too and the Scimitar was an awesome ship. Loved the new Romulan Warbirds as well, although I probably still prefer the original Next Gen era ones. They were great looking ships. I'm not sure I agree that there's no character moments either. Sure Worf, Crusher and Geordi have little to do but sometimes it's better to not shoehorn in character moments just for the sake of it.

Oh but I do agree about the ending being a tad rushed. I understand why they did it. The film is 1hr 51mins as it is, but even so an extra 10 or even 5 minutes to round off each character would have been the least they should have done. After all these are characters that fans have followed for 15 years. We know Picard stayed on as Captain and Riker assumed command of the Titan (and Deanna went with him). Data obviously died and we'd assume Worf went back to DS9. But why cut out Dr Crusher going back to Starfleet Academy? And what of Geordi? He's lost his best friend. Apparently Jonathan Frakes wanted to direct the film but the studio wouldn't allow it, which is a shame as he did a great job with First Contact and Insurrection (which you should watch again, Timon). Oh another plus point for Nemesis is that it featured the lovely Dina Meyer who's sexy even as a Romulan.

As for people saying it's trying to tap into Khan all over again, I say it goes much deeper than Khan/Kirk. That was a simple revenge tale. Ahab versus the white whale. But that was already covered in First Contact. I believe the Picard/Shinzon plot is the deepest of all the Trek movies. It's multi layered. I think the story and script is possibly the best of all the Trek movies, but it's just a shame that the director chose to focus on action. I think it's testiment to the story and script that the dynamics of Shinzon/Picard came through, for me anyway.

(in reply to HIM)

Post #: 108

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 5:56:05 PM

Rgirvan44

Posts: 18905
Joined: 10/3/2006
From: Punishment Park

I don't agree with your love for the film (above Khan? Really?) but that was a decent review that set out your views very well.

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It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to, than I have ever known.

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Post #: 109

RE: Star Trek Films - 17/3/2009 6:03:15 PM

HIM

Posts: 9685
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

I don't agree with your love for the film (above Khan? Really?) but that was a decent review that set out your views very well.

Thank you.

I think my love for the Next Gen films stems from the fact that I was never a fan of The Original Series, I still don't like it now. I can appreciate it in it's historical context (both in terms of science fiction and also in the history of the Star Trek universe itself) but I just can't get over how cheesy and low tech it is. I prefer to read synopsis of episodes rather than watch them. Hence why I love the films, but not the series they're based on. I'm a modern Trek fan. As I mentioned earlier I only got into Star Trek by watching re-runs of DS9 in 1998 (although watching First Contact at the cinema certainly piqued my interest).

(in reply to Rgirvan44)

Post #: 110

RE: Star Trek Films - 18/3/2009 9:49:21 AM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

So who were those bad guys again? Sorry, I haven't seen Nemesis since I saw it in the cinema.

Oh and that pic is from a site I just randomly found that doesn't match your appreciation for Nemesis, HIM...

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html

(in reply to HIM)

Post #: 111

RE: Star Trek Films - 18/3/2009 10:44:40 AM

HIM

Posts: 9685
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Star Trekkin', across the universe

They were the indiginous population of the planet near the Romulan Neutral Zone where the remains of B-4 were found (after being put there by Shinzon in order to lure Picard close to Romulan space). I did have an issue with that particular scene as Picard blatently broke the Prime Directive, but I can live with it.

Also, in that (rather funny I must admit) article where it goes on about Picard being bitter that Janeway got promoted. Well every Trek fan knows that Picard doesn't want to be promoted. Kirk even says to him in Generations, "Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship. Because as long as you're there, you can make a difference."

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 112

RE: Star Trek Films - 18/3/2009 10:48:43 AM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Starfleet Captains breaking the Prime Directive? I won't stand for it!

(in reply to HIM)

Post #: 113

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 19/3/2009 7:17:04 PM

SteveO85

Posts: 38
Joined: 4/2/2009
From: Haddington

definitely think the best one was Wrath of Khan, it was tense,suspenseful, funny and sad.The crew are on top form, Khan is a hugely entertaining villan and Spocks death was genuinely emotional and who can resist Shatner's warcry: "KKKKKKKKHHHHAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

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Post #: 114

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 27/3/2009 10:06:19 AM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Seeing as you can't post images in Future Films, I thought I'd put these here:

(in reply to SteveO85)

Post #: 115

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 27/3/2009 12:03:28 PM

tftrman

Posts: 3192
Joined: 15/11/2005

First Contact is my favourite. Got to say, having enjoyed most Star Trek films (apart from Nemesis) I have no inclination to watch the new one at all. Strange.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 116

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 30/3/2009 3:23:48 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Stranger than you giving The Mist 1 star?! And Armour of God 1.5?!?! I think not!

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to tftrman)

Post #: 117

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 9/4/2009 2:01:31 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

I still don't understand how Star Trek III is derided. I think it's great.

"My God Bones, what have I done?"

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 118

RE: The best STAR TREK movie ??? - 9/4/2009 2:02:14 PM

Tech_Noir

Posts: 20203
Joined: 12/10/2005

The effects in 2, 3 and 4 are still amazing.

(in reply to Timon)

Post #: 119

RE: Star Trek - 9/4/2009 2:14:20 PM

Timon

Posts: 14545
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol

Sometimes, you just can't beat good old model work.

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Tech_Noir)

Post #: 120