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RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election

 
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RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 3:40:51 PM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6286
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keyser Sozzled

Romney's campaign is falling apart. Pawlenty has left to become a lobbiest for the Banks, of all things.

If Obama doesn't romp home now then serious questions need to be asked about his own campaign, unless there is something outta left field a la the Swift Boat controversy which crippled John Kerry.


In all honesty, Kerry's main problem was that he was pretty spineless - to paraphrase Bruno Gianelli from the West Wing, he was more the "please don't hurt me" type of liberal.   I reckon Obama's reaction would be more in line with Bruno's own

And Romney must be asking himself how bad his chances must be when your lead players think that being the public face of banking in this economic climate is preferrable to being associated with getting him elected!

quote:

Honestly even if Romney had something to say and even if he was electable on his own platform this is looking like it will go down as one of the worst run campaigns in recent memory. 


Michael Dukakis and Walter Mondale must be praying for this

_____________________________

WWLD?

Every time we think we have measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we're reminded that that capacity may well be limitless

I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit.

(in reply to Keyser Sozzled)
Post #: 5041
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 3:41:54 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


Come on Sharkboy - you said yourself said the Saudis had no part to play in terrorism and then I provided you with the Wilkileaks info completely contradicting that view, Dev defends the Saudis, I say they are US puppets. They are clearly a US backed and armed dictatorship it's as plain as day.



Well, no, I didn't.  By "the Saudis" I take it you are referring to the powers-that-be in that country, namely the Saud Royal family and the government, and not every citizen.  The fact that bin Laden was Saudi, along with the majority of 9/11 hijackers does not mean that its government or monarchy supports terrorism.  That doesn't mean that there are not people from Saudi Arabia (and yes, probably even people with positions in the government) that either sympathise with the jihadists or even are complicit in their actions.  But it still doesn't make it state-sanctioned.  Which, I believe, is the very same point that Dev has continuously made to you and which you have not yet answered. 


As for the 3-4 year old wikileaks info, it makes absolutely no mention of the monarchy or government, but rather identifies rich donors as the source of terrorist funding, while completely ignoring the fact that the Saudi government has been one of the principal players in dismantling the various fronts and dummy mechanisms that were used to raise funds for the jihadists and, as a result, largely cutting off their money supplies.

quote:

Imagine thirty massive fluke/deviation posts    


The very nightmarish vision that prompted my earlier post!


My point regarding the Saudis is the fact that the Americans have done in the past and continue to knock off various leaderships in the name of freedom, democracy and the war on terror - but choose to leave the Saudis untouched, either in terms of financing terrorism or any kind of democracy. And rich donors are who exactly, where did they make their money, oil possibly? The House of Saud have built their fortune on oil.

Whether it's state sanctioned or not (and I believe it is at some level) the very fact the Saudis are allowed to get away with anything whatsoever means the Americans condone it. Why? Because they are dictatorship in their pocket.

(in reply to sharkboy)
Post #: 5042
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 3:52:00 PM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6286
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

My point regarding the Saudis is the fact that the Americans have done in the past and continue to knock off various leaderships in the name of freedom, democracy and the war on terror - but choose to leave the Saudis untouched, either in terms of financing terrorism or any kind of democracy. And rich donors are who exactly, where did they make their money, oil possibly? The House of Saud have built their fortune on oil.

Whether it's state sanctioned or not (and I believe it is at some level) the very fact the Saudis are allowed to get away with anything whatsoever means the Americans condone it. Why? Because they are dictatorship in their pocket.



I'm no lover of US foreign policy, but really?  The governments that they've been complicit in overthrowing were either openly supportive of terrorism or were committing very public and blatant attacks on their own people.  (Except Iraq - that invasion was Dubya's revenge, nothing less.  Doesn't mean that Ghadaffi wasn't guilty of the above though).

America has often been very critical of the amount of money going from KSA to terrorists and has put pressure on the Family to take action, which they did.  To say they've stood by and done nothing is incorrect.  And what you don't seem to have factored into the equation is the US need the saudi oil as much, if nor more, than the saudis need the US weaponry.

_____________________________

WWLD?

Every time we think we have measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we're reminded that that capacity may well be limitless

I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5043
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 3:52:35 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
By the way this is Micheal Scheuer former CIA officer he's spoken on various US networks - start from 3 minutes onwards - according to him the Saudi Government are involved in radicalisation are actually more dangerous than the likes of Bin Laden :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYZizO0f0lk

< Message edited by Fluke Skywalker -- 21/9/2012 3:56:08 PM >

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5044
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 4:46:50 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: sharkboy


Well, no, I didn't.  By "the Saudis" I take it you are referring to the powers-that-be in that country, namely the Saud Royal family and the government, and not every citizen.  The fact that bin Laden was Saudi, along with the majority of 9/11 hijackers does not mean that its government or monarchy supports terrorism.  That doesn't mean that there are not people from Saudi Arabia (and yes, probably even people with positions in the government) that either sympathise with the jihadists or even are complicit in their actions.  But it still doesn't make it state-sanctioned Which, I believe, is the very same point that Dev has continuously made to you and which you have not yet answered. 



It is kinda my fault. State-sanctioned were not words that came to mind these last two days even if that;s what I meant.

quote:

By the way this is Micheal Scheuer former CIA officer he's spoken on various US networks - start from 3 minutes onwards - according to him the Saudi Government are involved in radicalisation are actually more dangerous than the likes of Bin Laden :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYZizO0f0lk


Thank you, this is what I've been asking for, now for the American soldiers bit. Still, it's only one guy but it is interesting nontheless.

< Message edited by Deviation -- 21/9/2012 4:58:59 PM >


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to sharkboy)
Post #: 5045
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 21/9/2012 5:31:39 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
Also, I'm personally fucking sick of this, so I'm going to stop after this because I'm tired and annoyed of this. I apologize for the annoyance caused to other forumites.

quote:

No a puppet - you would have called Saddam Hussein an ally in the past, or Mubarak as well because they were once on the side of the Americans. That is the extent of your confused thinking.


Oh I would, doesn't mean I agree with it either, but I can understand why. Individuals are not a nation or the government btw.

quote:

You what? Individuals in the Saudi Arabia are pumping so much money into terrorism that they are considered the no.1 financiers in the world? And yet you still defend this dictatorship as an ally? You are a massive hypocrit.


Yes, THEY. ARE. STILL ALLIES. For reasons explained again and again.

quote:

No what we've been discussing is the backing of dictators, destabilisation of countries in the middle east. You brought up the point about about the brotherhood to make it look like I know nothing about the region - your comments show that you are wilfully ignorant about the actions of countries like America - you are typical of the double standards that some western commentators and politicians apply to foreign policy


It's as much of part of the whole thing as the backing is. You cannot just view this from one side.

quote:

What a pro-Bush NY Times article? You are a Neocon aren't you.


Wait, The New-York Times is Neo-Con now? Oh well, at least it differs from always being called liberal.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Even with the other sources, there's still been more deaths recorded than the war and it's aftermath.

quote:

Iraq-Iran war killed a lot of people but that was a western backed war to weaken two powerful middle eastern nations. Sanctions on Iraq killed 1,000,000 people after GW1 killed 100,000. Last ten years have killed at least another 100,000. All of this has taken place since America helped the Ba'ath party to power. The blood is on their hands as much as Hussein. Hussein didn't systematically kill hundreds of thousands of his own people as you claim - it's a lie.


Erm, no.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq#Documented_human_rights_violations_1979.E2.80.932003

Really, then what did he do with the rebellion? Those who criticized him. THE BLOODY KURDS. The Americans didn't systematically murder the Iraqis either if we;re using this argument. Also, the Ba'ath Party has its own responsibility for doing what it did. What the Americans did was in my opinion, bad, but it was still the Ba'ath Party who did it. You were shifting blame only on the Americans.

quote:

For you the subtleties mean acceptance of abhorrent actions - for me it's disgusting and inhuman. But that's where we differ don't we? You think it's acceptable because everyone does it and it's part of the Great Game - except you haven't seen your society destabilised in the way so many have by countries like America so you can sit on your high horse and defend evil actions.


Not exactly acceptance, to a degree yes, but understanding what caused them. I can understand why Hussien did what he did, I can still be abhored by it, but I can also understand them. Also, if we're talking societies destabilized, as much as I louthe, and I mean, louthe Pinochet, his actions have directly affected my family he did give Chile an economic boom and it's still the most functional part of South America. Also, I'm just accepting that they happen, you're the one being on a high horse on this.

quote:

So no criticism of America destabilising Iraq in the 60s then? There's a suprise - it's ok coz everyone does it. And I know the UK and the Soviets have done the same but were discussing the middle east in this region and the primary culprit has been America.


If somebody claims that America never aided Hussien I will attack him, if somebody makes it look as if America is pure evil, nothing like this ever happens and the focus is only in America, then I will criticize him as well. You've been doing Part 2.

Oh and I don't like it, but it happens.

quote:

None of those are defending dictators whatsoever!


It does, it is saying that Hussien and Assad aren't at fault. When they are, they are a lot or saying they should stay there. I wouldn't necessarly saying as backing up, but you've made it look like it is.

quote:

What are you talking about now, your saying that Saudi Arabia's shouldn't be deposed because it would cause chaos - but you back the invasion of Iraq and destabilisation of Syria? You are contradicting yourself.


No, you missed the point spectacularly. What I'm saying is that your same argument applies to Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Even if it happens through their own populace deposing their own governments, the results will be similar. So, do you agree on keeping dictatorships there because of your same reasoning with Iraq post-Operation Iraqi Freedom, or will you change it?

quote:

What is radicalisation? Funding Mudrassars to get people to fight a holy war against Russian? What the hell are you talking about.


Radicalisation is teaching the muhajedeen the teaching that would lead to the Taliban. This isn't hard.

quote:

LOL Saudi Arabia isn't a dictatorship? What they have free and fair elections there. Are you taking the piss - and all the evidence you need about these puppets and a lack of an arab spring is there in front of you - NO ARAB SPRING IN SAUDI OR BAHRAIN, while other parts of the middle east have been destabilised and bombed. They are protected.


It is an absolute monarchy, different if not totally dissimilar from how dictorships work. Assad is a dictatorship, King Saud isn't. I didn't claim they are a democracy. Oh and I'm not repeating the Saudi Arabia and Bahrain did. wiggum did it ages ago but it seems to have been to no avail.

quote:

Actions speak louder than words - the recent moves in the middle east against Libya and Syria for example smack of Neoconservatism - that said he is not directly invading anyone like Bush. He's not an innocent do-gooder by any means and anyone who thinks he is is naive to the extreme.


Noe-Con, for going agaisnt Assad? Something many people in the West, including the UN, have criticized for not doing? FUCKING LIBYA, where he was brought there because it was a Nato intervention. This has only been a year, you should remember. It's still silly to call him NeoCon.

quote:

Lol did a spot of googling did you? the 'social/ political atmosphere' of the era - what America fighting commies by backing brutal right-wing dictatorships? But of course you see this an acceptable course of action because you are a hypocrit. And I'm not absolving the UK at all - we've done our fair share to help this all along.


Right-wing? Shah Pahlavi was right wing? And yes, that happens. Do you know who the commies were aiding? They evebn helped with the Islamic governments.

Oh and I did not do searching, I've known them for some time (including the actions done on Mossadegh), what I'm asking is direct evidence that the US INSTALLED a dictatorship. Aiding it being installed and Installing it are two different things.

quote:

'The world is shit and you must be shit to work in it' - this essentially sums up your viewpoint. The truth is 'the world is shit because powerful countries fuck it up royally - then they go to work in this shit'. This applies to the west, Russia, China anyone who has decided upon themselves to focus on fucking up someone weaker - the reason I focus on America is that they have attacked more countries than anyone else over the last 50 years - fact.


But again, what do you suggest to do? How to do or in what way to do it that can operate in the real world? Oh and I suggest to you who some of China's allies and who they aid. One of the few true enemies they have is still Taiwan. This is a rhetorical question.

quote:

I want you to tell me your view on US foreign policy - on a moral or religious scale do you believe it to be good or evil?


Not a fan of it, I understand it and its actions and would never do them myself. Well done on bringing "good and evil" back into discussion, when the entire thing is a huge shades of grey.


< Message edited by Deviation -- 21/9/2012 5:37:12 PM >

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5046
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 12:40:53 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
Ok, just to break this shite up a wee bit- click

Don't know how true that is, it's a campaign video after all and we obviously don't know the context as we are just hearing one side of the story. Again though, Romney is getting painted as a bit of a prick.

_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 5047
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 1:37:06 PM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
Does he still even stand a chance? Any chance of him winning seem very slim to say the least.

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Shifty Bench)
Post #: 5048
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 3:39:45 PM   
vad3r


Posts: 4403
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Close to Mod HQ
Obama's predictably going to be re-elected. I wish it was Rick Perry instead, for the comedic value. It'd be like having Bush back (this generations Chaplin).

_____________________________

Single Virgin Mod Candidate 2013


quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives
To paraphrase the great man himself:

Vad3r won't go anywhere near this.

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 5049
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 3:50:16 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

Does he still even stand a chance? Any chance of him winning seem very slim to say the least.


I would say no despite the attempts of Faux News. They said Romney shouldn't be held accountable for what he said all the back in May then started going on about a 'gaffe' Obama made. This is all well and good but that 'gaffe' was from a video recorded in 1998. They are so fucking desperate it is unbelievable.

_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 5050
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 7:39:46 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

Also, I'm personally fucking sick of this, so I'm going to stop after this because I'm tired and annoyed of this. I apologize for the annoyance caused to other forumites.

Yeah it's getting boring now, I always seem to get into these longwinded discussions, my last one was about cops being sent down the sewers in The Dark Knight Rises, at least this one has some relevance to the real world

quote:

No a puppet - you would have called Saddam Hussein an ally in the past, or Mubarak as well because they were once on the side of the Americans. That is the extent of your confused thinking.


Oh I would, doesn't mean I agree with it either, but I can understand why. Individuals are not a nation or the government btw.

quote:

You what? Individuals in the Saudi Arabia are pumping so much money into terrorism that they are considered the no.1 financiers in the world? And yet you still defend this dictatorship as an ally? You are a massive hypocrit.


Yes, THEY. ARE. STILL ALLIES. For reasons explained again and again.

quote:

No what we've been discussing is the backing of dictators, destabilisation of countries in the middle east. You brought up the point about about the brotherhood to make it look like I know nothing about the region - your comments show that you are wilfully ignorant about the actions of countries like America - you are typical of the double standards that some western commentators and politicians apply to foreign policy


It's as much of part of the whole thing as the backing is. You cannot just view this from one side.

quote:

What a pro-Bush NY Times article? You are a Neocon aren't you.


Wait, The New-York Times is Neo-Con now? Oh well, at least it differs from always being called liberal.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

That's post invasion figures

Even with the other sources, there's still been more deaths recorded than the war and it's aftermath.

quote:

Iraq-Iran war killed a lot of people but that was a western backed war to weaken two powerful middle eastern nations. Sanctions on Iraq killed 1,000,000 people after GW1 killed 100,000. Last ten years have killed at least another 100,000. All of this has taken place since America helped the Ba'ath party to power. The blood is on their hands as much as Hussein. Hussein didn't systematically kill hundreds of thousands of his own people as you claim - it's a lie.


Erm, no.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq#Documented_human_rights_violations_1979.E2.80.932003

Really, then what did he do with the rebellion? Those who criticized him. THE BLOODY KURDS. The Americans didn't systematically murder the Iraqis either if we;re using this argument. Also, the Ba'ath Party has its own responsibility for doing what it did. What the Americans did was in my opinion, bad, but it was still the Ba'ath Party who did it. You were shifting blame only on the Americans.

Fair enough on the body count - but you have to put the majority of the blame on the Americans. Quite simply if America had not helped the Ba'ath party to power in the 60s it would have saved the lives of a good couple of million people. It's no good saying 'but the American's didn't know it would turn out like this' because they've done the same thing with the same horrific loss of life more than once, in Indonesia for example. And America don't care about Kurds, their allies the Turks have been dropping bombs on them for years - however they are a useful tool now in splitting up Iraqi oil.

quote:

For you the subtleties mean acceptance of abhorrent actions - for me it's disgusting and inhuman. But that's where we differ don't we? You think it's acceptable because everyone does it and it's part of the Great Game - except you haven't seen your society destabilised in the way so many have by countries like America so you can sit on your high horse and defend evil actions.


Not exactly acceptance, to a degree yes, but understanding what caused them. I can understand why Hussien did what he did, I can still be abhored by it, but I can also understand them. Also, if we're talking societies destabilized, as much as I louthe, and I mean, louthe Pinochet, his actions have directly affected my family he did give Chile an economic boom and it's still the most functional part of South America. Also, I'm just accepting that they happen, you're the one being on a high horse on this.

Are you honestly defending the replacement of a democratically elected leadership with a repressive dictatorship because of perceived economic benefits?

quote:

So no criticism of America destabilising Iraq in the 60s then? There's a suprise - it's ok coz everyone does it. And I know the UK and the Soviets have done the same but were discussing the middle east in this region and the primary culprit has been America.


If somebody claims that America never aided Hussien I will attack him, if somebody makes it look as if America is pure evil, nothing like this ever happens and the focus is only in America, then I will criticize him as well. You've been doing Part 2.

Well I'm just giving them a hard time because they have been one of the primary causes of instability in the world over the last 50-60 years. And as far as I'm concerned if you inflict dictatorships on people you are far closer to the evil end of the moral scale. You can't defend it I'm afraid.

Oh and I don't like it, but it happens.

quote:

None of those are defending dictators whatsoever!


It does, it is saying that Hussien and Assad aren't at fault. When they are, they are a lot or saying they should stay there. I wouldn't necessarly saying as backing up, but you've made it look like it is.

If I said 'Saddam Hussein was a good bloke' that's defending him and I haven't said - I've just been trying to get to the bottom of some of the facts.

quote:

What are you talking about now, your saying that Saudi Arabia's shouldn't be deposed because it would cause chaos - but you back the invasion of Iraq and destabilisation of Syria? You are contradicting yourself.


No, you missed the point spectacularly. What I'm saying is that your same argument applies to Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Even if it happens through their own populace deposing their own governments, the results will be similar. So, do you agree on keeping dictatorships there because of your same reasoning with Iraq post-Operation Iraqi Freedom, or will you change it?

If we don't arm and train fighters to start a civil war is it going to be the same result? How about we just try and put pressure on countries to move towards democracy without helping them tear their own societies apart.

quote:

What is radicalisation? Funding Mudrassars to get people to fight a holy war against Russian? What the hell are you talking about.


Radicalisation is teaching the muhajedeen the teaching that would lead to the Taliban. This isn't hard.

quote:

LOL Saudi Arabia isn't a dictatorship? What they have free and fair elections there. Are you taking the piss - and all the evidence you need about these puppets and a lack of an arab spring is there in front of you - NO ARAB SPRING IN SAUDI OR BAHRAIN, while other parts of the middle east have been destabilised and bombed. They are protected.


It is an absolute monarchy, different if not totally dissimilar from how dictorships work. Assad is a dictatorship, King Saud isn't. I didn't claim they are a democracy. Oh and I'm not repeating the Saudi Arabia and Bahrain did. wiggum did it ages ago but it seems to have been to no avail.

Come on a powerful elite control the country with no democratic elections? It's a dictatorship

quote:

Actions speak louder than words - the recent moves in the middle east against Libya and Syria for example smack of Neoconservatism - that said he is not directly invading anyone like Bush. He's not an innocent do-gooder by any means and anyone who thinks he is is naive to the extreme.


Noe-Con, for going agaisnt Assad? Something many people in the West, including the UN, have criticized for not doing? FUCKING LIBYA, where he was brought there because it was a Nato intervention. This has only been a year, you should remember. It's still silly to call him NeoCon.

Regime change to bring 'democracy' to the middle east is pure Neocon. And America were there in Libya but they didn't want to make it obvious. One thing you have to realise is NATO is a tool of the western foreign policy. I've been focusing on America but we're involved and so are the French to name a couple.

quote:

Lol did a spot of googling did you? the 'social/ political atmosphere' of the era - what America fighting commies by backing brutal right-wing dictatorships? But of course you see this an acceptable course of action because you are a hypocrit. And I'm not absolving the UK at all - we've done our fair share to help this all along.


Right-wing? Shah Pahlavi was right wing? And yes, that happens. Do you know who the commies were aiding? They evebn helped with the Islamic governments.

Oh and I did not do searching, I've known them for some time (including the actions done on Mossadegh), what I'm asking is direct evidence that the US INSTALLED a dictatorship. Aiding it being installed and Installing it are two different things.

Eh? Aiding a dictatorship to power is installing it? In Iraq for example the CIA handed over an assassination list to empty the upper reaches of Iraqi society leaving a power vaccum for the Ba'ath party to move into. This involved the assassination of 5000 people, intellectuals, lawyers, professors. As far as I'm concerned this is a perfect example. Apart from that you have Iran 1953, swathes South and Central America, Southeast Asia - you think helping a dictatorship to power is not the same as installing it into power?

quote:

'The world is shit and you must be shit to work in it' - this essentially sums up your viewpoint. The truth is 'the world is shit because powerful countries fuck it up royally - then they go to work in this shit'. This applies to the west, Russia, China anyone who has decided upon themselves to focus on fucking up someone weaker - the reason I focus on America is that they have attacked more countries than anyone else over the last 50 years - fact.


But again, what do you suggest to do? How to do or in what way to do it that can operate in the real world? Oh and I suggest to you who some of China's allies and who they aid. One of the few true enemies they have is still Taiwan. This is a rhetorical question.



In terms of China yes they are also a dodgy superpower but in reality if you take into account the last 100 years their impact has been nowhere near as damaging on a global scale as the West's - they have actually caused themselves more pain under the likes of Mao than anyone else for the most part. That said I'm sure if they had the chance they may well have acted as badly as the US.

I've said this before, we have to basically stop pretending to be the good guys and start acting like them. Everything we do is based on maintaining our economic and military superiority but in the end is the cost in lives really worth it? It literally does run into the millions. The problem lies in the fact that if we give the world real equality and freedom, they will become as economically powerful as us and this means less profit, potentially more expensive resources and ultimately a decline in the overall power of the west and it's corporations. But is this really a bad thing for the sake of a peaceful world?


quote:

I want you to tell me your view on US foreign policy - on a moral or religious scale do you believe it to be good or evil?


Not a fan of it, I understand it and its actions and would never do them myself. Well done on bringing "good and evil" back into discussion, when the entire thing is a huge shades of grey.



I think it really as simple as good and evil though. Harming people's societies for the sake of wealth and power is really what most of this boils down to.

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 5051
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 7:50:00 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
I am officially abandoning this thread, if anyone cares to join me, I'll be round the back with the cigs and the MD 20/20.

_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5052
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 8:00:13 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
I won't post again about all of this I promise

(in reply to Shifty Bench)
Post #: 5053
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 9:41:59 PM   
pythonlove

 

Posts: 42
Joined: 14/9/2012
Fluke - just start a thread called "I Hate America" and be done with it already.

The US has been the major source of instability in the world for the last 50-60 years?? Please. You have conveniently forgotten this thing called the USSR...and terrorist organizations, and several other "bad actors" on the world stage just to accommodate your desire to blame everything on the US. And overlooked the good we have done. It's pathetic.

We're far from perfect, but you have a serious blind spot, my friend.

But I guess you can't expect brilliant sociopolitical analysis on a movie website.

< Message edited by pythonlove -- 23/9/2012 9:43:03 PM >

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5054
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 9:47:44 PM   
Hood_Man


Posts: 12189
Joined: 30/9/2005
PYTHONLOVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING?? He said he was done talking about that, we'd made progress!

(in reply to pythonlove)
Post #: 5055
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 9:53:08 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots


_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to Hood_Man)
Post #: 5056
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 9:57:56 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: pythonlove

Fluke - just start a thread called "I Hate America" and be done with it already.

The US has been the major source of instability in the world for the last 50-60 years?? Please. You have conveniently forgotten this thing called the USSR...and terrorist organizations, and several other "bad actors" on the world stage just to accommodate your desire to blame everything on the US. And overlooked the good we have done. It's pathetic.

We're far from perfect, but you have a serious blind spot, my friend.

But I guess you can't expect brilliant sociopolitical analysis on a movie website.


I don't hate Americans, just US foreign policy but I'll admit I do focus heavily on them over say the Russians for example. The reason for this is the numerous failings of the Russians/ Communism have been pretty much completely exposed in the western media while most of America's wrong doings get whitewashed.

Watch this and tell me what you think, former CIA officer John Stockwell speaks out against his own agency :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ioJGMCr-Y

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man

PYTHONLOVE WHAT ARE YOU DOING?? He said he was done talking about that, we'd made progress!


I am never done talking about it! But I will shut up for the sake of other forumites

(in reply to pythonlove)
Post #: 5057
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 10:02:34 PM   
vad3r


Posts: 4403
Joined: 3/9/2010
From: Close to Mod HQ


_____________________________

Single Virgin Mod Candidate 2013


quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives
To paraphrase the great man himself:

Vad3r won't go anywhere near this.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5058
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 23/9/2012 10:22:40 PM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
I'm just happy I finally got to use that Abe Simpson gif after all these years. This is a good day.

*nods*

It's a good day.

< Message edited by Shifty Bench -- 23/9/2012 10:23:04 PM >


_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to vad3r)
Post #: 5059
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 24/9/2012 2:53:09 AM   
Deviation


Posts: 27284
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Enemies of Film HQ
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench

I am officially abandoning this thread, if anyone cares to join me, I'll be round the back with the cigs and the MD 20/20.


I haven't even read his last post. Does that count as abandoning or does it count as quitting because it would be like arguing with a wall that the boganvillas on it actually make it look pretty?

< Message edited by Deviation -- 24/9/2012 2:54:09 AM >


_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dpp1978
There are certainly times where calling a person a cunt is not only reasonable, it is a gross understatement.

quote:


ORIGINAL: elab49
I really wish I could go down to see Privates

(in reply to Shifty Bench)
Post #: 5060
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 24/9/2012 3:55:39 AM   
Shifty Bench

 

Posts: 15398
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Land of the Scots
Yes.......




_____________________________

Extended Edition Podcast- Episode 46:Threads Of Destiny (Star Wars Fan Film)

(in reply to Deviation)
Post #: 5061
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 24/9/2012 7:27:34 AM   
DancingClown


Posts: 4236
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: The Lot

quote:

ORIGINAL: pythonlove
But I guess you can't expect brilliant sociopolitical analysis on a movie website.


Oooh, get 'im.

But can you find the brilliant analysis of movies on a political website? Hah! Take that!


_____________________________

Astronomic Tune Boy

'The town knew darkness, and darkness was enough.'

"Storm just bleeewwww me away..."

(in reply to pythonlove)
Post #: 5062
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 24/9/2012 9:23:04 AM   
boaby

 

Posts: 2808
Joined: 29/12/2006
From: Aberdeenshire
So, I was reading in the Sunday papers about the upcoming Ryder Cup... 1993, post-Gulf War, Jingo all over the shop...Ryder Cup team threatens to snub President Clinton 'cos he dodged the draft (like any of that mob signed up for Iraq). Anyway, it brought to mind the episode of the West Wing in which the Ryder Cup team actually snubbed Bartlet leading to the "Mandy Madness".

I've not that much knowledge of the realities of modern US political history. Just how much of the West Wing is just real situations tweaked with snazzy dialogue and plinky-plonky morals?

Anyway, continue with your bletherings.

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(in reply to DancingClown)
Post #: 5063
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 26/9/2012 5:30:32 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/outrage-at-cias-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-8174771.html

Really disturbing article about 'double tap' drone strikes, i.e. drop a bomb wait for people to come and help and then drop another bomb on them. On top of this a report has claimed only 2% of victims are known militants.

The article also talks about the general effect on the lives of people who live in these regions :

'Researchers added that traumatic effects of the strikes go far beyond fatalities, psychologically battering a population which lives under the daily threat of annihilation from the air, and ruining the local economy.'

'Their way of life is collapsing: kids are too terrified to go to school, adults are afraid to attend weddings, funerals, business meeting or anything that involves gathering in groups.'


(in reply to boaby)
Post #: 5064
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 27/9/2012 11:17:29 AM   
Timon


Posts: 14588
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Bristol
Romney wants to know why you can't open windows on a plane and has to urge the crowd to chant his name.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/mitt-romney/9564529/Mitt-Romney-why-dont-aeroplane-windows-open.html

http://gawker.com/5946392/mitt-romney-stops-supporters-from-chanting-ryan-to-ensure-they-say-his-name-too

Man, I can't WAIT till the debates....

_____________________________

"I put no stock in religion. By the word 'religion', I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called 'The Will of God'. Holiness is in right action and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves."

Twitter: @timonsingh

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5065
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 27/9/2012 11:46:06 AM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun
To be fair to Romney he was joking about the plane - but he got jumped on

It's gonna take Obama turning up to he debates with a beard and proclaiming himself a muslim live on TV for him to lose this one...


(in reply to Timon)
Post #: 5066
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 28/9/2012 1:46:56 AM   
furrybastard

 

Posts: 5180
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: Ireland

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

To be fair to Romney he was joking about the plane - but he got jumped on

It's gonna take Obama turning up to he debates with a beard and proclaiming himself a muslim live on TV for him to lose this one...



It'd be brilliant if he promised that his first act in office for his second term would be to grow a massive beard. I'd be 100% behind this move.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5067
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 28/9/2012 9:31:16 AM   
sharkboy


Posts: 6286
Joined: 26/9/2005
From: Belfast
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/outrage-at-cias-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-8174771.html

Really disturbing article about 'double tap' drone strikes, i.e. drop a bomb wait for people to come and help and then drop another bomb on them. On top of this a report has claimed only 2% of victims are known militants.



Interesting article - I hope the final report goes some way to eradicating this myth that the new weaponry is so "surgical" in its precision that it can shoot the beard off a jihadist's chin while leaving everything else intact.  I see it as yet another symptom of the new warfare, where "pilots" sit hundreds of miles away with a gearstick plugged into a computer while watching events unfold on a monitor - its Call of Duty warfare that can do nothing but further desensitise people to the human cost of these tragedies.  The "double tap" approach isn't exactly new - it's been a common enough tactic throughout the history of warfare - but deliberately using it against civilians as this report infers is a despicable act, and possibly a war crime into the bargain?

quote:

It'd be brilliant if he promised that his first act in office for his second term would be to grow a massive beard. I'd be 100% behind this move.   


 Lets get that petition started!

_____________________________

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Every time we think we have measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we're reminded that that capacity may well be limitless

I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit.

(in reply to Fluke Skywalker)
Post #: 5068
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 28/9/2012 9:35:25 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54599
Joined: 1/10/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/outrage-at-cias-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-8174771.html

Really disturbing article about 'double tap' drone strikes, i.e. drop a bomb wait for people to come and help and then drop another bomb on them. On top of this a report has claimed only 2% of victims are known militants.



Perhaps someone should congratulate the CIA on using known terrorist tactics - IRA standard, isn't it? Although I suppose they weren't the first either.

_____________________________

Lips Together and Blow - blogtasticness and Glasgow Film Festival GFF13!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to sharkboy)
Post #: 5069
RE: The Race for the White House - 2008 Election - 28/9/2012 4:10:41 PM   
Fluke Skywalker


Posts: 9540
Joined: 23/4/2006
From: the dark side of the sun

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/outrage-at-cias-deadly-double-tap-drone-attacks-8174771.html

Really disturbing article about 'double tap' drone strikes, i.e. drop a bomb wait for people to come and help and then drop another bomb on them. On top of this a report has claimed only 2% of victims are known militants.



Perhaps someone should congratulate the CIA on using known terrorist tactics - IRA standard, isn't it? Although I suppose they weren't the first either.


Terrorism and the CIA go hand in hand. One thing I've come to realise over the years is that the lives of non-white westerners are cheap and not regarded as particularly valuable.

It's actually a particularly nasty form of racism when you kill brown/ black/ yellow people in the manner we've seen over the years and not really give a damn in terms of prosecuting any wrongs.



(in reply to elab49)
Post #: 5070
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