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Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 10:20:10 AM   
Wedge


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From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Sherlock Holmes.  We've all seen movies, tv shows, etc. but how many people have read the books?  I'm currently about two thirds of the way through the complete collection.  They're great stories but they do get a bit samey.  Also, Conan Doyle never seems to filled out the character of Sherlock Holmes himself. We get a fair sense of who Doctor Watson is because he narrates the stories but Holmes is kept mysterious and as a result is a slightly flat and two dimentional character.

Anyone a Sherlock Holmes fan?

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


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Post #: 1
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 11:08:58 AM   
elab49


Posts: 54599
Joined: 1/10/2005
Yes - I read them all regularly and have to say I disagree completely with your view on Holme's character. I don't think someone so 2-d could have become such an icon of detection fiction.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

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Post #: 2
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 11:19:27 AM   
unhingedmoviepigeon


Posts: 1305
Joined: 12/10/2006
From: With Cpt Reynolds on board Serenity
I think Doyle manages to bring Holmes to life in such a vivid and fasinating way the stories grab you from the start and pull you in. I think Conan Doyle has to be one of the greatest writes of all time and Sherlock Holmes is one of the most amazing characters ever!

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Post #: 3
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 11:31:50 AM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Yes, flat was probably the wrong word.  He is undoubtedly an exciting and intriguing character but he hardly ever expresses the full range of emotions or gives opinions on anything but criminology.  I suppose by withholding details about Holmes he makes him more fascinating.  That's the way Conan Doyle wrote him but I feel slightly disappointed we never got to know him better.  I find it interesting how there is so much speculation about what wasn't said in the novels.  Perhaps he suffered from bipolar disorder or was perhaps homosexual?

How about samey?  I suppose it's difficult to avoid when you write 60 odd stories.

I also bought the complete collection of Brett's Sherlocks Holmes on DVD.  In my opinion, Brett nailed the character perfectly and there has been no better screen adaption before or after.

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 4
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 12:06:13 PM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: La Planete Des Singe
I think Holmes is probably the single greatest character in popular fiction & Brett is the best screen Holmes, even though Basil Rathbone was brilliant, not forgetting the incomparable Nigel Bruce as an endearingly bumbling Watson!  I've read Doyles' original stories & a few of the many other books that provide new cases for the deerstalker-adorned detective. I'd recommended the following

The Final Solution Michael Chabon: wonderful short story from Chabon which has an 89 year old Holmes coming out of retirement to find a missing parrot, the pet of a young boy, a Jewish refugee in WW2 England.

The Seven Per Cent Solution Nicholas Meyer: filmmaker Meyer's 1st Holmes novel which puts a different spin on The Final Problem with Holmes battling against drug addiction as a patient of Freud who uncovers the real story behind Moriarty.

Dr Jekyll & Mr Holmes Loren D. Estleman: Holmes tackles the murderous Mr Hyde, far better than Loren's previous book which had Holmes going up against Dracula (there's not enough room in Stoker's story for Sherlock)

The Last Sherlock Holmes Story - Michael Dibdin: not the first time Holmes has been on the trail of Jack The Ripper but this is the best of the bunch.

< Message edited by Monkeyshaver -- 14/12/2006 12:09:28 PM >


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RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 12:42:34 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
One thing that surprised me was how infrequent the famous Sherlock Holmes elements are.  For example, so far Holmes has only said 'the games afoot!' once.  Also, I didn't realise Moriarty only appeared in 'The Final Problem'. 

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 6
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 1:01:25 PM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: La Planete Des Singe
Moriarty also turns up in The Valley of Fear, a flashback story written after The Final Problem. But I think other author's have developed the character beyond Doyle's original intention, it seems like he only created him to kill off Holmes in a satisfying way, but then public pressure led to him resurrecting Sherlock.

Also Moriarty was added to the plot of The Red-Headed League in the Jeremy Brett telly version of Holmes, have watched a few of them recently on ITV3.

< Message edited by Monkeyshaver -- 14/12/2006 1:05:28 PM >


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Post #: 7
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 2:02:51 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyshaver

Moriarty also turns up in The Valley of Fear, a flashback story written after The Final Problem. But I think other author's have developed the character beyond Doyle's original intention, it seems like he only created him to kill off Holmes in a satisfying way, but then public pressure led to him resurrecting Sherlock.

Also Moriarty was added to the plot of The Red-Headed League in the Jeremy Brett telly version of Holmes, have watched a few of them recently on ITV3.


Interestin, haven't read the Valley of Fear yet or seen The Red-Headed League.  The chronology of the stories is rather confusing. Is there a timeline quide to the stories on the web anywhere anywhere? Can be bothered to look!

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 8
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 2:55:43 PM   
elab49


Posts: 54599
Joined: 1/10/2005
Couldn't agree more wrt to the comments on Brett above - he is the definitive Holmes (although I too did enjoy Rathbone, it was really just fun).

_____________________________

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation] LIKE AMERICA'S SWEETHEARTS TOO. IT MADE ME LAUGH A LOT AND THOUGHT IT WAS WITTY. ALSO I FEEL SLOWLY DYING INSIDE. I KEEP AGREEING WITH ELAB.


Annual Poll 2013 - All Lists Welcome

(in reply to Wedge)
Post #: 9
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 3:05:34 PM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: La Planete Des Singe
Study In Scarlet was the 1st, a full length novel which is different in tone to most of the other cases.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Conan_Doyle%27s_Sherlock_Holmes_short_stories

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RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 3:11:53 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Hmm, isn't that the order of publication but not when the stories are set?


_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 11
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 3:31:50 PM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: La Planete Des Singe
Alright then, after a bit of internet detective work (or more accurately typing sherlock holmes timeline into google) here's a pretty exhaustive link -http://www.sherlockpeoria.net/Who_is_Sherlock/SherlockTimeline.html

< Message edited by Monkeyshaver -- 14/12/2006 3:33:45 PM >


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RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 3:35:55 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Thanks.  Did a lot of google searches and came away empty handed.

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 13
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 4:59:54 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
I grew up with Sherlock Holmes - one of the very first novels I read was A Study In Scarlet. Doyle's plots are not as convoluted and complicated as Christie's, but are much more realistic. His criminals are not well-educated evil geniuses. And some of the stuff he writes is very creepy - at least was to me when I was little. The Hound of the Baskervilles - as I was reading it, the palms of my hands were sweating. The palms!
And what's this about Holmes being homosexual? Wasn't he in love with a woman in one of the short stories? A Scandal in Bohemia I think it was called. His only realtive failure.  

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Post #: 14
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 5:03:03 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

I grew up with Sherlock Holmes - one of the very first novels I read was A Study In Scarlet. Doyle's plots are not as convoluted and complicated as Christie's, but are much more realistic. His criminals are not well-educated evil geniuses. And some of the stuff he writes is very creepy - at least was to me when I was little. The Hound of the Baskervilles - as I was reading it, the palms of my hands were sweating. The palms!
And what's this about Holmes being homosexual? Wasn't he in love with a woman in one of the short stories? A Scandal in Bohemia I think it was called. His only realtive failure.  


I think he admired her more than loved her, depends on how you read it (though I may be wrong)

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

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Post #: 15
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 5:15:39 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

I grew up with Sherlock Holmes - one of the very first novels I read was A Study In Scarlet. Doyle's plots are not as convoluted and complicated as Christie's, but are much more realistic. His criminals are not well-educated evil geniuses. And some of the stuff he writes is very creepy - at least was to me when I was little. The Hound of the Baskervilles - as I was reading it, the palms of my hands were sweating. The palms!
And what's this about Holmes being homosexual? Wasn't he in love with a woman in one of the short stories? A Scandal in Bohemia I think it was called. His only realtive failure.  


I think he admired her more than loved her, depends on how you read it (though I may be wrong)


Well, I think you are. But what with the Death of rats being your avatar, let's agree to disagree.   

(in reply to Wedge)
Post #: 16
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 5:25:57 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Oh, I'm not saying he is a homosexual but it is a possibility.  It would add another interesting dimension to the character.  I'll need to re-read 'A Scandal in Bohemia'.  Still, I'd think there is conclusive proof of Holme's sexuality.  Can anyone provide evidence either way? 

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to bozo)
Post #: 17
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 8:56:42 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

Oh, I'm not saying he is a homosexual but it is a possibility.  It would add another interesting dimension to the character.  I'll need to re-read 'A Scandal in Bohemia'.  Still, I'd think there is conclusive proof of Holme's sexuality.  Can anyone provide evidence either way? 


You mean something like... I spent this one night with Sherlock Holmes?

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Post #: 18
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 9:00:29 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Yes. That sort of thing - 'Famous Detective in Rent Boy Shock'

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to bozo)
Post #: 19
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 9:16:44 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

Yes. That sort of thing - 'Famous Detective in Rent Boy Shock'



A little off topic, but I remember once I totally embarrassed my English teacher when I said in class that Holmes was a cocaine addict. She denied it vehemently - it was sixth grade or something (but I suspect she honestly didn't know). The next day I brought a copy of The Sign of the Four and read a passage out in class. A passage describing Holmes doing cocaine. It was a killer.  

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Post #: 20
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 9:46:05 PM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

Yes. That sort of thing - 'Famous Detective in Rent Boy Shock'



A little off topic, but I remember once I totally embarrassed my English teacher when I said in class that Holmes was a cocaine addict. She denied it vehemently - it was sixth grade or something (but I suspect she honestly didn't know). The next day I brought a copy of The Sign of the Four and read a passage out in class. A passage describing Holmes doing cocaine. It was a killer.  


Did you mention the fact that it was perfectly legal back then, you could buy it down at the local chemist, and they put it in Coca-Cola?

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to bozo)
Post #: 21
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 14/12/2006 10:40:24 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

Yes. That sort of thing - 'Famous Detective in Rent Boy Shock'



A little off topic, but I remember once I totally embarrassed my English teacher when I said in class that Holmes was a cocaine addict. She denied it vehemently - it was sixth grade or something (but I suspect she honestly didn't know). The next day I brought a copy of The Sign of the Four and read a passage out in class. A passage describing Holmes doing cocaine. It was a killer.  


Did you mention the fact that it was perfectly legal back then, you could buy it down at the local chemist, and they put it in Coca-Cola?


It was sixth grade, dude. Although I think I knew that back then they thought cocaine was a cure.

(in reply to Wedge)
Post #: 22
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 9:30:04 AM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

It was sixth grade, dude. Although I think I knew that back then they thought cocaine was a cure.



A cure for the tedium of everyday live?

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to bozo)
Post #: 23
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 9:57:07 AM   
Monkeyshaver

 

Posts: 4734
Joined: 30/9/2005
From: La Planete Des Singe

Of course Holmes is gay. Remember that private incident when a bemused Watson was in bed with Holmes & Holmes squirted jiff up his arse.
"What are you doing that for Holmes?"
"Lemon entry my dear Watson, lemon entry!"


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Post #: 24
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 10:02:29 AM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
 Genius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyshaver


Of course Holmes is gay. Remember that private incident when a bemused Watson was in bed with Holmes & Holmes squirted jiff up his arse.
"What are you doing that for Holmes?"
"Lemon entry my dear Watson, lemon entry!"



_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to Monkeyshaver)
Post #: 25
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 10:19:09 AM   
Wedge


Posts: 4494
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
This is quite an interesting article re. Holme's sexuality

_____________________________

"When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!"
"Dance for me Colin! Daaance for me!!"
"Everybody's dead Dave"


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs314.snc4/41022_10150255199830294_790880293_14349909_1904630_n.jpg

(in reply to Wedge)
Post #: 26
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 10:22:14 AM   
jonathan74


Posts: 809
Joined: 23/12/2005
quote:

ORIGINAL: bozo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wedge

Yes. That sort of thing - 'Famous Detective in Rent Boy Shock'



A little off topic, but I remember once I totally embarrassed my English teacher when I said in class that Holmes was a cocaine addict. She denied it vehemently - it was sixth grade or something (but I suspect she honestly didn't know). The next day I brought a copy of The Sign of the Four and read a passage out in class. A passage describing Holmes doing cocaine. It was a killer.  





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Post #: 27
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 15/12/2006 5:04:29 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
Poirot is gay. Holmes is not.

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Post #: 28
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 18/12/2006 11:26:12 AM   
TobiasFunke


Posts: 2611
Joined: 1/10/2005
Poirot, gay? What about Countess Vera Rosakoff (sp)? He's also extremely flirtatious with the female characters in the books.

I too am a Holmes fan, and my favourite of the short stories are The Red-Headed League and A Scandal In Bohemia. As for the novels, I enjoyed The Sign of Four the best. I can't remember which ones he appears in specifically, but I like the stories with his brother Mycroft. The recent novel about Doyle's real-life involvement in detection, Arthur and George, is a great read btw.

As for Moriarty, he's recognised as Holmes' nemesis because his name crops up more often than any other 'villain' Holmes and Watson clashed with in the stories. He's also Holmes intellectual equal (if not superior). I've read some interesting theories relating to him. One had him as Holmes' former Maths tutor, another had him as Holmes' older brother, and my favourite was that Holmes died during the struggle at the Reichenbach Falls, and Moriarty assumed his identity... 

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Post #: 29
RE: Sherlock Holmes - 18/12/2006 6:27:23 PM   
bozo


Posts: 2512
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: HM Prison Slade
quote:

ORIGINAL: TobiasFunke

Poirot, gay? What about Countess Vera Rosakoff (sp)? He's also extremely flirtatious with the female characters in the books.

I too am a Holmes fan, and my favourite of the short stories are The Red-Headed League and A Scandal In Bohemia. As for the novels, I enjoyed The Sign of Four the best. I can't remember which ones he appears in specifically, but I like the stories with his brother Mycroft. The recent novel about Doyle's real-life involvement in detection, Arthur and George, is a great read btw.

As for Moriarty, he's recognised as Holmes' nemesis because his name crops up more often than any other 'villain' Holmes and Watson clashed with in the stories. He's also Holmes intellectual equal (if not superior). I've read some interesting theories relating to him. One had him as Holmes' former Maths tutor, another had him as Holmes' older brother, and my favourite was that Holmes died during the struggle at the Reichenbach Falls, and Moriarty assumed his identity... 


Good one, dude!

(in reply to TobiasFunke)
Post #: 30
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