RE: Little Girl Missing (Full Version)

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Nexus Wookie -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:00:35 PM)

I'm a father of a two year old girl and a four year old boy, when I first heard the story I felt sick. I cannot begin to imagine what the parents must be going through right now. What the hell is this world coming to?[:@]



Shifty Bench -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:04:09 PM)

Yeah, I wouldn't let my five year old out at that time of night either regardless of how safe I thought my town was.

However, these parents did and as Harley said, they have to live with that mistake. They have all my sympathies as no matter what we say or how much blame people throw their way nothing, and I guarantee you this, nothing can make them feel any worse than they are feeling right now.



Brooksy84 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:07:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: matty_b

quote:

If I leave my car unlocked and someone breaks in and steals my stereo


Not really the same as a child being abducted, though, is it?


It's not, no, I was just throwing out a scenario to illustrate my point.

I should state also that I'm not necessarily saying kids should be wrapped in cotton wool or mollycoddled or whatever you want to call it, just that common sense and a safety conscious attitude should be applied.



superdan -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:08:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Who knows what age I'll let her play out at 7.30 at night in October, but I can safely say it won't be 5.
To suggest that the parents share culpability, even a tiny bit, might sound appalling, it might disgust some people's sensibilities, but it doesn't make it false. If I leave my car unlocked and someone breaks in and steals my stereo then I blame myself; that doesn't make the thief any less dirty scum for doing it.


This isn't like when the McCanns left their kids alone in a foreign country while they went out for dinner. This is a small and close community where it's not unreasonable to feel security in familiarity, and the fact that it appears probable that April knew or at least recognised her abductor means that the time of day (or, indeed, her age) are to some extent irrelevant.



DancingClown -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:08:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Who knows what age I'll let her play out at 7.30 at night in October, but I can safely say it won't be 5.


Some of us seem to agree about this.

quote:

To suggest that the parents share culpability, even a tiny bit, might sound appalling, it might disgust some people's sensibilities, but it doesn't make it false.


It's simply your opinion. If April was left wondering through the woods by herself then you'd probably have some basis for it. You think they should share blame? I imagine they're blaming themselves quite enough already, regardless of it being warranted or not. They won't need the likes of you, too.

quote:

I leave my car unlocked and someone breaks in and steals my stereo then I blame myself; that doesn't make the thief any less dirty scum for doing it.


An unconvincing analogy



Hood_Man -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:13:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Who knows what age I'll let her play out at 7.30 at night in October, but I can safely say it won't be 5.

6 then?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84
To suggest that the parents share culpability, even a tiny bit, might sound appalling, it might disgust some people's sensibilities, but it doesn't make it false.

Yeah there's no might about it Brooksy [8|] And again, this could have happened in the day. It could happen at the park when your little girl is playing on the swings, you're turn away to start chatting to a friend, and two seconds later you turn back and she's gone.

The parents aren't responsible for another individual coming along and kidnapping their child.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84
If I leave my car unlocked and someone breaks in and steals my stereo then I blame myself; that doesn't make the thief any less dirty scum for doing it.

Don't start falling into the trap of comparing scenario's as a means of justifying what you're saying. I'm not going to jump out of my bath and run through town naked shouting "Eureka!" because you can think of a million different criminal scenario's [8D]



Brooksy84 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:45:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hood_Man


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Who knows what age I'll let her play out at 7.30 at night in October, but I can safely say it won't be 5.

6 then?


Yeah, 6, why not.
As far as "the likes of me" critiscising them, I'm not shouting abuse through their window or posting hate mail through their door, I'm voicing my opinion on the facts on a forum website. It won't change what's happened, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to say it.



homersimpson_esq -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:47:59 PM)

You can keep your children under house arrest. You can act with suspicion at every person who so much as looks at your child. You can go through life assuming everyone is evil, everyone is out to abduct your child. But your child can still choke to death on a piece of food. Or get run over by a bus. Or a thousand other things over which we have no control that are, factually, more common than being abducted. I remember reading that child abductions haven't gone up: reporting on child abductions has gone up. That is, more of the stories are making national press because of the world-village mentality our media has. We are hearing about more, ergo, more are happening. It's not quite post hoc ergo propter hoc, my favourite Latin saying, but it's nearly that.

We cannot prevent every bad thing from happening. We'd be so busy ensuring our children's lives are so very well protected that we end up not giving our children a life at all. Woody Allen said that you can live to be 100 if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be 100. (The fact that he is still going strong at the age of 77 almost negates his point, mind.) Similarly, you can ensure the safest, most secure childhood for your children, and end up not giving them a childhood at all.

Every situation is different. Every situation is unique. Every parent knows their child and knows their area. Until recently I lived in a block of flats in a city centre. OBVIOUSLY I wasn't going to let my children run around outside, four floors down, on a busy city street. Now I live in a suburban area with a field out the back. I let them play out there. I can see them from my son's bedroom window, and that's fine. I know the area. Similarly, other parents will know their own children, and know the area in which they live. To apportion blame to the parents for a situation like this is not a million miles from victim-blame in rape cases.



homersimpson_esq -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:49:56 PM)

Can I point out the lack of "as a parent" in my post above. I hate that.



Hood_Man -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 5:55:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84
As far as "the likes of me" critiscising them, I'm not shouting abuse through their window or posting hate mail through their door

Who said you did? Not me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84
I'm voicing my opinion on the facts on a forum website. It won't change what's happened, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to say it.

Who said you don't? Not me.



jonson -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 6:06:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: homersimpson_esq

To apportion blame to the parents for a situation like this is not a million miles from victim-blame in rape cases.


Sorry, I can't agree with that at all. This is a 5 year old we're talking about, not 8 or 9 or 10, old enough to run inside. This is a 5 year old. To be able to walk round to a car, get in, and be driven off at 7.30pm at night, I think a tiny portion of blame has to be given to the parent/s. A tiny bit mind, but some all the same.
My stomach has been churning all day for what they are going through, I have huge sympathy for them. I am staggered they have someone in custody (assuming he is guilty) and still haven't found her, it makes me feel ill. If I were her father I'd be torturing the bastard.
But all the same, if I saw a 5 year old wandering to a car, unsupervised, I'd be screaming "where the fuck are the parents?" and I'm pretty sure any of us would too.
Please note, I'm not at all saying this is the parents fault, heaven forbid, this is the fault of some seriously fucking sick individual, but I do think a 5 year old should be supervised outside, at all times.
And I say this as a parent.

Slightly Off Topic, my eldest daughter's school rang me this morning to ask why she wasn't at school. I was dying with fear, I jumped in my car and was half way to her school when they rang to say she was in class but had got to school late, hadn't been in the register and had forgotten to sign in at the office. I was furious they'd rang me without checking. I felt ill. I could have cried with worry. She's 15 years old. 15! You'd have thought I'd have gotten over being overly-protective, but sadly my biggest fears in life are what might happen to them.



DancingClown -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 6:12:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84
As far as "the likes of me" critiscising them, I'm not shouting abuse through their window or posting hate mail through their door, I'm voicing my opinion on the facts on a forum website.


If you could tell them to their face you would, though, seeing as you feel that not enough blame has been apportioned to them. Like I said they're probably blaming themselves enough without people like you wanting to make sure they should. And clearly you do think they should. Which is nice of you.

quote:

It won't change what's happened, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to say it.


True. But I'm wondering why you are saying it, if, as you just said, it won't change anything. What is the point other than to feel morally superior? Well done you.



Ghidorah -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 6:49:43 PM)

Brooksy made some valid points and for safety the children should be playing in someone backgarden that time of the evening. This however wouldn't of prevented the monster from abducting her at some point. She and he friends were always in constant danger and they didn't know about it.

Sorry to go slight off topic but I felt Sky News live coverage today was cheap and pathetic. They just reporting on every miner detail to keep the sympathisers glued to the TV. They were even giving out the impression the poor girl is still alive in attempt to give the viewers glued.



Shifty Bench -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 7:13:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah
Sorry to go slight off topic but I felt Sky News live coverage today was cheap and pathetic. They just reporting on every miner detail to keep the sympathisers glued to the TV. They were even giving out the impression the poor girl is still alive in attempt to give the viewers glued.


Reminds me of Charlie Brooker's take on the rolling news coverage of Maddie McCann- click (the first 3 minutes and 14 seconds)


(not saying the situations are the same just that the news is)



DancingClown -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 7:35:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah

Brooksy made some valid points


I dunno, did he? Maybe he did, maybe not. My problem here is the motivation for wanting to make sure that the correct amount of blame is apportioned, despite him having nothing more than a personal opinion on a subject which could be considered quite subjective in terms of context and individual circumstance, as opposed to having written the guidebook on child safety, to which the expression of that opinion alludes.

When I first heard the news and noted that these kids were playing outside unsupervised at this time I myself thought "yikes....I can't imagine letting my...." and so forth. It was an unexpressed thought that was quickly shelved due to other, more relevant concerns, mainly the welfare of the poor little girl and shuddering at the idea of what the parents are going through. I wonder why people feel the need to remind everyone, in these cases, that the parents have to shoulder some blame (as if they won't be destroying themselves enough already) and who feel the need to express that, despite it being generally unhelpful and mostly irrelevant, particularly as the parents will no doubt be affording themselves plenty of blame in their own torment.

I think the decent thing would be to keep such a thought to oneself. Trumpeting about how "I would never let my kids....I think it's gravely irresponsible...." and so forth just sounds like either mindless hot air, or simply attempts to make everyone else aware that they are the better parents. And the 'worse parents' here are clearly being appropriately punished for their gross negligence. But hey, no, it's okay....it's "just an opinion". Yeah, well done you. [8|]



Brooksy84 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 8:17:13 PM)

quote:

despite him having nothing more than a personal opinion on a subject which could be considered quite subjective in terms of context and individual circumstance


Since when was personal opinion such an issue DancingClown? Over the last couple of days you've made numerous points (all of which I agreed with, incidentally) on the Jimmy Saville thread critiscising jon5000 and his take on recognising good deeds by bad people. You didn't have to make those points, you could quite easily have "kept them to yourself", but you wanted to express them because you wanted people to hear your take on things and vocalise your disagreement with him. Which, surely, is the very point of the forum, to encourage discussion and debate. Disagree with my points, criticise them by all means, but don't question my right to express them.



homersimpson_esq -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 10:28:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson
I felt ill. I could have cried with worry. She's 15 years old. 15! You'd have thought I'd have gotten over being overly-protective, but sadly my biggest fears in life are what might happen to them.


I have a feeling that never goes away. Nor should it.



DancingClown -> RE: Little Girl Missing (3/10/2012 10:38:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brooksy84

Since when was personal opinion such an issue DancingClown?


My issue is with the judgemental tone of that opinion. And I just don't like the idea of people trumpeting about blame, as if the family aren't going to be blaming themselves enough as it is

quote:

Over the last couple of days you've made numerous points (all of which I agreed with, incidentally) on the Jimmy Saville thread critiscising jon5000 and his take on recognising good deeds by bad people. You didn't have to make those points, you could quite easily have "kept them to yourself", but you wanted to express them because you wanted people to hear your take on things and vocalise your disagreement with him. Which, surely, is the very point of the forum, to encourage discussion and debate. Disagree with my points, criticise them by all means, but don't question my right to express them.


I'm not questioning your right to express them. I'm questioning your reasons for expressing them, which I don't see as your wish to "encorage debate". You're passing judgement. And I just don't think you're being fair, that's all. April wasn't gallavanting through Soho at midnight, she was playing on her bike with friends, very close to her home, in a reputedly safe area. No-one was being negligent. Would you also condemn the families of April's friends for also letting their kids play outside at seven? The most I would say is that the parents might have got a little complacent about their kids' safety, but only really when compared to other parts of the country. I don't like the blame-game in this kind of situation. It's distasteful, and brings out the worst in people.

I remember the Mcgann thread, with DragonLady or Dragon-something. It was ugly.



elab49 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 10:04:09 AM)

Are the BBC trying to get locals to criticise the police already? It was the first question asked in this interview. Of course people want to volunteer but if they won't be helpful they won't be helpful. The very sensible lady the Beeb tried it with said exactly that. 



Chief -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 10:26:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Are the BBC trying to get locals to criticise the police already? It was the first question asked in this interview. Of course people want to volunteer but if they won't be helpful they won't be helpful. The very sensible lady the Beeb tried it with said exactly that. 


I hope not. The police generally know what they're doing. While it may sound like more people = more ground covered, it also means more untrained people = possible mistakes being made.

Also, regarding Brooksy's comments, while I don't agree with them and don't like the idea of blaming the parents, they're just as fair to say as anyone else chiming in to say I feel really sorry for the parents.. None of it makes any difference to the case at hand.



elab49 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 10:35:49 AM)

At 5 my niece wasn't allowed out further than in front of the house, even in a cul de sac. So it'd be easy to criticise.

Thing is is this. They're kids. When she was 4-5 my niece went missing. The entire scheme was out looking for her it felt like. My brother/SIL were in bits, the police were looking after them and out sorting out the search. Even though they knew she hadn't been allowed out, everyone knew how easy it was for kids to get out the house when your back was turned. My brother had searched the house multiple times, the police did too while the search o/s was ongoing. And then a policewoman went back upstairs and found her - in a tiny side cupboard which was still full of clothes. She's tallish for her age but still managed to curl herself in there, something no-one thought she could even get into, even empty, and just fallen asleep. Panic over. Next day my brother took the doors off every upstairs cupboard.

I think the thing to remember is that the creep that took her would be waiting for an opportunity. And even if it hadn't been 3 5 years olds out at 7.30pm it would have been sometime. And the parents would find something else to beat themselves up about over.



sharkboy -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 11:16:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chief


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Are the BBC trying to get locals to criticise the police already? It was the first question asked in this interview. Of course people want to volunteer but if they won't be helpful they won't be helpful. The very sensible lady the Beeb tried it with said exactly that. 


I hope not. The police generally know what they're doing. While it may sound like more people = more ground covered, it also means more untrained people = possible mistakes being made.


Exactly - imagine the outcry if the perpetrator were to escape prison on a technicality because some member of the public had contaminated the crime scene or a critical piece of evidence.  Also, as I mentioned previously, they're using helicopters with thermal imaging cameras - how does having a hundred or so additional warm bodies traipsing through the fields and hills help this?



elab49 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 12:08:24 PM)

From the latest report it sounds as if the 'we know best' farmers have organised their own search parties and the police have given up and said go ahead. [8|]

I'm confused about the initial descriptions though. It sounds a bit as if the police immediately suspected him, from what they said when they arrested him. The car isn't the same colour as the initial description, though, Could their view that it was him have forced the kids description of the shape into the shape of the car of the person they thought it was rather than vice versa? But they couldn't do anything about the colour the children said it was? I'd bet any defence will go to town on that.

Also, wouldn't it have been pretty useful back on Monday to mention the little girl had cerebral palsy? I'd have thought, if people were looking out for her further afield, it'd have been quite a pertinent point to help?



elab49 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (4/10/2012 7:17:57 PM)

All day on BBC News Tim Wilcox (Willocks? something like that) has been asking everyone he can about the poor people who aren't being allowed to give their amazingly valuable and useful help and how upset they are about it.

Now he can't get anyone to say that one screen - he asked one lady this morning, a gentleman this afternoon, both batted it away as unimportant nonsense and ridiculous to mention given they're there to talk about a missing girl. He's just asked it of a policement who looked slightly flummoxed.

So what's the BBC end game here? Do they want the police to take staff off the search and send them over to bow for forgiveness to each individual wannabe helper over their hurt wee feelings? If not, shut the hell up. Because, with no-one actually making the complaint on screen, it sounds like you're just making screen time and deciding to aim crap at the police in doing so. [>:]



jonson -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 7:45:09 AM)

Yeah, I thought that Elab. If I were a cynic I'd think the BBC are trying to deflect attention away from the Jimmy Saville debacle. [8|]
Anyway, 4th day, her parents must be fearing the worst (although I'm sure they were doing that after 5 minutes) My wife is a teacher and one of her 6 year old's asked today if they could "go out and have a look for April" [:o]



DancingClown -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 8:02:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

Yeah, I thought that Elab. If I were a cynic I'd think the BBC are trying to deflect attention away from the Jimmy Saville debacle. [8|]


That did cross my mind, too.

quote:

My wife is a teacher and one of her 6 year old's asked today if they could "go out and have a look for April" [:o]


Bless 'em.



MrsFinkelstein -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 9:47:13 AM)

Sky News apparently did a wonderful interview with the suspect's son the other day (the boy hasn't seen his dad for about 10 years) and kept saying that and they kept asking him if he lived with his Dad. The interviewer obviously from the Kay Burley school of journalism.

I have just had a minor rant on FB about the criticism of the parents to allow her to play outside till 7pm (when she went missing, the police were contacted at 7.30pm) - to me it smacks somewhat of making yourself feel superior because *you* wouldn't have allowed *your* child to do *that*, well whoop de fucking doo. It may not have been something I would have done, but then I live in a town not in a village in the middle of the countryside which had a very very low crime rate and where everyone knows everyone else, and all the kids play out at that time. The parents perception of risk in that respect was obviously very low, as were the majority of parents in the town as well I would suspect.

The only person or persons to blame is the one who abducted her, and if it was someone she knew they could just have easily done it in broad daylight from her front garden.

*minor rant over...again*



thatlittlemonkey -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 11:01:43 AM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19843337

Mark Bridger has been arrested on suspicion of murder.

I know it's looked increasingly likely as the days have gone by, but it is nevertheless desperately sad that murder is now a distinct possibility.



Phil884 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 11:05:13 AM)

They’ve now arrested the suspect they’ve had in custody for abduction on suspicion of her murder. Although she remains missing, the “dynamics of the search” have changed according to the police. So, has he admitted that he has done it but not told the police where she is? Otherwise, why the change in her search and the details of his arrest? Awful, awful, upsetting story.



elab49 -> RE: Little Girl Missing (5/10/2012 11:09:39 AM)

Maybe they are being forced to make it clear that all these amateurs turning up aren't helping? They've been trying to restrict them for days from getting in the way and they've got some of them organising themselves which is no more than a form of selfishness no matter how altruistic they think they're being.  Especially after all that nonsense on the BBC yesterday.

E.g. that terribly upset man on the news just now. He's not a bad person and he wants to help but, ultimately, it's selfishness - he has put his need to do something as more important so he and others will continue to compromise the search.



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