Terry Vs Ferdinand (Full Version)

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jonson -> Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 8:13:30 AM)

I'm guessing this thread will last about 2 minutes if that, but let's have a go.
Firstly, I dont particularly like John Terry, however he has to have a fair trial, despite the fact most seem to have made up their minds already. I don't really like Anton Ferdinand either to be truthful.
I like to think Terry didn't say what he is being accused of saying (I always think the best of people, to my naivety), but if he did, he has to accept the strongest punishment available.

What did get my back up though, was Ferdinand's Mum attending court with Steven Lawrence's Mum. So, the mother of a boy who was stabbed to death in a racially motivated attack is allowed to sit in front of a jury about a man accused of racial abuse? Did anyone else find this competely distasteful? Did Ferdinand's Mum think that was a good idea? Or the prosecution? Yeah, I bet they did.




thedrin -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 8:37:21 AM)

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?




blackduck -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 8:51:19 AM)

From what I've read I don't think he's a racist. A dick and generally an idiot sure, but not a racist.
He probally did say what he's accused of but I don't think it was racially motivated.

there is the arguement that if you use racial slurrs then you're a racist.
But sometimes people just pick a word they think will hurt and don't think of the context.

Either way he should face a misconduct charge, just don't like the way the word racist is being bandied about.




jonson -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 8:55:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


The papers picked up on it straight away, the case is very high profile, the biggest "celebrity" court case this year most likely, and I would assume the jury are fairly intelligent, so yes, I think they would know who she is and I would also say that their judgement will be impaired because of it.




Professor Moriarty -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 9:21:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson

I'm guessing this thread will last about 2 minutes if that, but let's have a go.
Firstly, I dont particularly like John Terry, however he has to have a fair trial, despite the fact most seem to have made up their minds already. I don't really like Anton Ferdinand either to be truthful.
I like to think Terry didn't say what he is being accused of saying (I always think the best of people, to my naivety), but if he did, he has to accept the strongest punishment available.

What did get my back up though, was Ferdinand's Mum attending court with Steven Lawrence's Mum. So, the mother of a boy who was stabbed to death in a racially motivated attack is allowed to sit in front of a jury about a man accused of racial abuse? Did anyone else find this competely distasteful? Did Ferdinand's Mum think that was a good idea? Or the prosecution? Yeah, I bet they did.


According to what I've read about the trial, he doesn't mind being called a c*** so feel free to shout that out to him if you see him [:D]

Seems to me that there is a difference in what the two are saying. JT now isn't denying what he said, but claims he was repeating back what Ferdinand said (which doesn't quite make sense to me). While Ferdinand is quite clear that he was provoking JT as hard as he could and claims he heard nothing, but his attention was drawn to it on You Tube. Ashley Cole was a car's length away and says he can't be clear what was said.

There's probably a lot more come out in court, but that's my rough understanding. And if that's how it were I don't think I could give a guilty verdict unless there were some further witness on the prosecution side.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 10:08:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


The papers picked up on it straight away, the case is very high profile, the biggest "celebrity" court case this year most likely, and I would assume the jury are fairly intelligent, so yes, I think they would know who she is and I would also say that their judgement will be impaired because of it.


It may be an age thing but yes, it would be expected that most people would know who Doreen Lawrence is. She has been a very public advocate for a very long time. THis is the first time I'd read she was there though. While I'm sure in her head she possibly thinks she's dealing with ground level influences that could create the type of sick bastard that murdered her son, it's like a big hammer turning up in court.

The get-out though - it's not a jury trial, is it Jonson? So the issus of influence are different - this is in front of a judge. So the appearance was for the press, not to influence the court.

Blackduck, I think the normal argument is where your get out is if you use racist slurs as a form of attack - where's the difference between you and the racist standing beside you doing the same thing. Does giving money to a charity in Africa give you a get-out? (Information as relevant to Doreen Lawrence turning up).

All the stuff most others have said seems to say Ferdinand didn't actually hear it at the time - his lack of reaction seemed to back that up for me. So I've no idea why someone seems to have cooked up this parrot line of defence.

But if he's now admitted saying it, you can see why they fiddled with the trial date to try and get him to Europe.




matty_b -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 10:33:57 AM)

I hadn't read that Doreen Lawrence was there. That is pretty distasteful, yes.

I have a feeling that he'll get off. It doesn't seem like there's concrete proof that he said it first, or maliciously.

However, the argument that he simply repeated back what Ferdinand said doesn't ring true to me. Of course, the knock-on effect of this is that all future Chelsea/QPR games are going to be absolutely poisonous - up there with Millwall/West Ham.

And apparently Cole had said to Ferdinand "You can't say that to JT!" during the match, which I just hear in a really squeaky voice. [:D]




jonson -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 10:38:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: jonson


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


The papers picked up on it straight away, the case is very high profile, the biggest "celebrity" court case this year most likely, and I would assume the jury are fairly intelligent, so yes, I think they would know who she is and I would also say that their judgement will be impaired because of it.


The get-out though - it's not a jury trial, is it Jonson? So the issus of influence are different - this is in front of a judge. So the appearance was for the press, not to influence the court.



Aaah, I didn't realise that, my mistake. It's still pretty distasteful though IMO and a real low blow by Mrs Ferdinand, if indeed it was her idea.


quote:

I have a feeling that he'll get off. It doesn't seem like there's concrete proof that he said it first, or maliciously.


Yeah, I dont think there's enough to prove it, the whole sorry saga is looking pretty embarassing for football.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 10:53:49 AM)

Clever defence, isn't it? Have it demonstrated they can prove he said the words, so now the story is Ferdinand said it first. I seem to recall him being adamant he never said the words at all till he saw the videos?

Thing is, Ferdinand isn't on trial - and while I think the point seems to be that they can prove Terry said it (and he's admitted the words because he is, apparently, parrot boy (can't they dig out people to confirm that every time something is said to him, parrot boy immediately says it back? That would surely help his case [8|])), they can't prove Ferdinand did or didn't. Like I said, clever defence.

The story at the time was that either a team mate or someone on the sidelines saw it - I guess there will be other witnesses turning up.





Lazarus munkey -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 10:53:52 AM)

This is the 'bad' racism, right?

Not the acceptable sort, like when Andy Murray becomes a 'Scottish c***' for not being David Beckham or being as good as we want him to be and having the temerity to have tabloid stories invented about him. Or when England are playing the dirty Krauts or surrender monkeys who, we are reliably informed, "don't like it up 'em".

Clearly, two people in their place of work exchanging words while their blood is up is the ugly face of the game and should be deemed worthy of a judge and countless column inches.

Hello?? Is this thing on?





elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:02:13 AM)

I've never been on board with the Scots/English thing being racism - it devalues the term. It's a form of hatred, and, as with Germany, xenophobic, but the proper word seems to be avoided.

It's been established before now that acts on a football pitch - which are, IMO, not remotely analogous to an argument in an office - can lead to legal action off-pitch (wasn't it Duncan Ferguson's assault case that was the first?).

Racism in an office setting is generally dealt with via other procedures. But then, it's not witnessed and argued about by 100s of 1000s of people. There is a major difference and I can kind of see why it needs to be such a public condemnation because these people are followed by so many others. I'm still not clear where this is a court case but, eg, Suarez wasn't though. Is it because it was viewable on the cameras so was a public order offence?




Lazarus munkey -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:09:56 AM)

My point was more a criticism of the media and stupid people. [:D]




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:17:11 AM)

I'm not sure why the media are stupid for covering this case.  It's the culmination of various set-tos on people being chosen for squads and manager changes, the UK is vocal on the issue of racism is sport  - how is that not a legitimate reason for coverage?  My point, where I didn't agree with you, was I don't see this as analogous to being dismissed as two people at their workplace. [:)]




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:25:37 AM)

Lets be careful with the term get off that seems to infer he got lucky.
While not looking at a prison sentence here this is quite a nasty charge and it will have a huge effect on him and his life if found guilty.
If he is found not guilty then he hasn't got off.

I don't like Terry, in fact I can't stand the guy or the things he does away from the pitch. I find it odd that if someone said I'd called them a "black cunt" that someone would reply "I never called you a black cunt". You wouldn't say the word which has offended them again.
More likely than not I would tell them they can fuck off trying with that shit, there is no way you would repeat a racial slur.




Skiba -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:25:38 AM)

Like Elab has said, xenophobia is quite different to racism, and that's what Scottish/English 'banter' is. Scottish and English (or German, French) people are not a race, per se.

I think Terry has always said that he said those words but was only repeating them back, or along the lines of "I didn't call you a..." There were a few other players in the vicinity, and Chris Foy was pretty close to it as well, yet none of them picked up on it. Being as close as he was, you'd think the ref would've taken some action. I can't imagine any ref in this day and age letting something like that slide.

There's no more witness statements to be heard, so it's closed now. Verdict expected tomorrow.




directorscut -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:26:18 AM)

Well whether he's found guilty or not, they both come off as utterly reprehensible from what admit to saying to other players on the pitch.




superdan -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:30:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: directorscut

Well whether he's found guilty or not, they both come off as utterly reprehensible from what admit to saying to other players on the pitch.


Perhaps not the racial aspect, but I reckon that sort of thing goes on all the time. Certainly, when I played Sunday league the language flying around during a game would make a docker blush, and if I knew anything about an opponent that I thought would wind him up I'd make sure to remind him of it at every available opportunity.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 11:37:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lazarus munkey

This is the 'bad' racism, right?

Not the acceptable sort, like when Andy Murray becomes a 'Scottish c***' for not being David Beckham or being as good as we want him to be and having the temerity to have tabloid stories invented about him. Or when England are playing the dirty Krauts or surrender monkeys who, we are reliably informed, "don't like it up 'em".




Please for the love of God stop this "look at the English blatantly being racist against our poor Scottish tennis player" crap.
Just look through the international football threads to see pretty much the same and worse coming from the other side of our northern boarder and across the Irish sea.
The hypocrisy on that tennis thread was running at ridiculous levels.

None of it is right, but this holier-than-thou is just really getting tired now.





elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 12:19:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

Lets be careful with the term get off that seems to infer he got lucky.
While not looking at a prison sentence here this is quite a nasty charge and it will have a huge effect on him and his life if found guilty.
If he is found not guilty then he hasn't got off.

I don't like Terry, in fact I can't stand the guy or the things he does away from the pitch. I find it odd that if someone said I'd called them a "black cunt" that someone would reply "I never called you a black cunt". You wouldn't say the word which has offended them again.
More likely than not I would tell them they can fuck off trying with that shit, there is no way you would repeat a racial slur.



This case is irrelevant to an extent though - the FA used it as an excuse to delay a decision, but he admitted he said it, he's just got this defence as to why. He'll still be sanctioned by the FA - I can't see them getting out of it.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 12:23:34 PM)

This is ridiculous. In-court tweets suggest this will come down to whether they can prove he said 'you' FBC as opposed to 'a' FBC - the latter supporting his 'I'm a parrot' defence. 




boaby -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 1:29:14 PM)

There seems to be two aspects to Terry's defense:

1. I said "it" but I wasn't calling him "it".
2. Even if I did call him "it" all these other people say I'm not a racist.

Doesn't seem like much of a defense for me.

Gabriel Marcotti wrote an article a while ago about Balotelli being abused by crowds in Italy while playing for Inter. The gist was that the use of racist language to get a rise out of someone is not the same as racism. Like ripping the p!ss out of someone's ginger hair doesn't mean you'd attack someone for being ginger or not give them a job because they're ginger. Fine line for me.

The prosecution seemed happy enough to have a lip reader testify that he said "it". From what I've read it doesn't seem like they put any effort at all into suggesting Terry was a racist. Which suggests they didn't feel they needed to prove that.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 1:31:42 PM)

I think that's right. It was the same with Suarez - as far as the FA were considered, they weren't calling him a racist and I think specifically said they didn't believe he was. But that wasn't a get out clause for use of the language. Whether that's the same in a court of law I'm not sure, but the social media court cases for abuse do suggest it's what's said, how and where - not what's in the heart. 




Spaldron -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 2:11:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skiba

Like Elab has said, xenophobia is quite different to racism, and that's what Scottish/English 'banter' is. Scottish and English (or German, French) people are not a race, per se.


Wiki
quote:

The UN does not define “racism”; however, it does define “racial discrimination”: According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[19]

This definition does not make any difference between discrimination based on ethnicity and race, in part because the distinction between the two remains debatable among anthropologists.[20] Similarly, in British law the phrase racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".[21]






elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 2:21:45 PM)

I am aware of what the current view is in UK laws - that changed a while back after a case in Scotland I think? And English law then took the same view.

All types of hatred aren't racism, it's just lazy shorthand that, IMO, devalues the original term. ANd it allows people to quibble over being called 'racist' when being called xenophobic is a slam dunk. The Scots/English thing isn't racism, it's xenophobia, as is the English-German thing. No matter what the law lazily calls it.




horribleives -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 2:33:22 PM)

Putting aside the racism aspect for a second (which, to clarify, is a separate point to the one I'm about to make) it's getting right on my tits the way the press are reporting this - banging on about them swearing and goading each other in the first place as 'shocking' and 'embarrasing' and illustrating the 'secret, ugly world of footballers' (The Independent). Secret? I can only conclude that anyone shocked by footbalers using bad language has bever played the game or set foot in a stadium. It's been going on for decades and it happens at every level, from schoolboy to sunday league and up - men playing football swear at each other. Big fucking deal. I know Sky Sports and people who call football a 'global brand' would like to think otherwise (see the ridiculous ban given to Wayne Rooney two seasons ago) but it's a fact of life and (apart from the recent yet rare instances when it tips over into racist abuse) long may it continue.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 2:44:13 PM)

Terry is cleary a knob if he said it but Ferdinand isn't coming off squeaky clean either, he seems like a complete dick as well. As for the 'revelation' that footballers can speak to each other in not the politest of terms generally >>> maximum [8|]




Goodfella -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 3:21:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


I should imagine so. Any half-educated person who's watched a Panorama or Crimewatch programme in the last 10-15 years knows what all the Lawrence family look like. Personally I just think it sounds like a complete media stunt which is what I would expect from a family like the Ferdinand's, but not the Lawrence's who have always acted with dignity and selflessness given the horrific and tragic circumstances that have befallen their family.

I'm with Fluke, they're both dickheads and they both try and wind each other up and other players. They're both what's wrong with the modern footballer and I don't buy Ferdinand being "hurt" by any of it for one second, frankly it seems to me he's just seen the celebrity, and the extra pound signs, this opportunity brings. But if Terry has been racist, he deserves to face the punishment and to be made an example of. Mind you a 5-day trial with all the taxpayer's money used for a £2,500 fine as the maximum sentence feels a bit of a joke to be honest and I'm already sick to death of it.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 3:28:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


I should imagine so. Any half-educated person who's watched a Panorama or Crimewatch programme in the last 10-15 years knows what all the Lawrence family look like. Personally I just think it sounds like a complete media stunt which is what I would expect from a family like the Ferdinand's, but not the Lawrence's who have always acted with dignity and selflessness given the horrific and tragic circumstances that have befallen their family.




I hadn't realised we knew enough about Ferdinand's mother to condemn her so completely. What did I miss?




Goodfella -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 3:31:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

quote:

ORIGINAL: Goodfella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedrin

Is Steven Lawrence's mother so recognisable that the jury is likely to know who she is?


I should imagine so. Any half-educated person who's watched a Panorama or Crimewatch programme in the last 10-15 years knows what all the Lawrence family look like. Personally I just think it sounds like a complete media stunt which is what I would expect from a family like the Ferdinand's, but not the Lawrence's who have always acted with dignity and selflessness given the horrific and tragic circumstances that have befallen their family.




I hadn't realised we knew enough about Ferdinand's mother to condemn her so completely. What did I miss?



I'm condemning her because taking Lawrence's mother to this trial is very distasteful and knowing the attitude of her two sons as football players this doesn't greatly surprise me. The whole thing sounds like a publicity stunt and I thought this was supposed to be a serious criminal trial investigating a possible act of racism, but perhaps I'm wrong.




elab49 -> RE: Terry Vs Ferdinand (12/7/2012 3:33:33 PM)

Seems an unnecessay use of the tar brush there - you've got no idea what the woman is like. 




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