RE: Scottish independence debate (Full Version)

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MrsFinkelstein -> RE: Scottish independence debate (14/2/2013 7:21:43 PM)

Did anyone else see the party political broadcast by the SNP at the end of the scottish news tonight??? I did, and my immediate reaction was .........WTF????????

Basically lots of people walking about carrying boxes from one room to another to the tune of 'Lets Stick Together', then the word FORWARD.

Was it being ironic?




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (14/2/2013 7:53:08 PM)

Apparently the SNP have been crying at Westminster and gotten their demand pandered to so the word 'separate' (a pejorative apparently) has to be removed from the discussions.




Scruffybobby -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 8:36:02 PM)

So I've downloaded the white paper and am going to have a good read through. So far 'Eck has failed to come out with anything like a convincing argument. I'm not expecting that to change but I'm prepared to be surprised.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 8:46:11 PM)

What they've produced is an uncosted wishlist/manifesto - not a case for Independence, particularly economic. The 2016-17 projections are particularly interesting because they're arguing deficit rates (and that's without all the pie in the sky con the voters rubbish) and it depends on oil (with revenue based not on independent figures but the Governments own). Which is utter bollocks in terms of reliability and persuasiveness.

We all know current policies given with one hand and take with the other - council tax freeze/disappearing council tax services. Free tuition/disappearing student support. And some of their ideas? They already have powers for but already know they can't afford them.

This was not the paper we needed IMO. It needed something SNP free and this is not it. It's too important for King Eck to flash his ego all over.




sanchia -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 8:59:59 PM)

Essentially that does appear to be what the critique is so far. The SNP have been putting off explaining anything by claiming "it will be in the white paper" but the white paper is hollow in that it does not have the costings or how they propose to pay for what is essentially a massively expensive wishlist of "promises". Without the costing it is nothing at all and they cannot ride on the whole "oil revenue will pay for everything" pipe dream which they have been riding on as unless they provide actual numbers and figures they are providing nothing.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 9:10:36 PM)

The child care thing is particularly worrying - a new focus that is aimed at wavering votes? That's a manifesto - short term, headline grabbing, shallow.

And still uncosted. [>:]




MrsFinkelstein -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 9:11:30 PM)

I kept getting images when Salmond and Sturgeon were announcing it of being a kid again and getting bribed with lots of sweeties to behave. "If you vote yes we'll given you this, and this, and this, and this, and this!!"

It's very idealistic and sounds like a lovely country to live in, but not in anyway realistic. Where is all the money to pay for this going to come from?

(I have had a post on FB by a pro-independence ex-work colleague - it basically involved lots of !!!!!!!!! with random "better future for our kids"......."we pay in more than we take out"........"in charge of our own futures"..........."rich Eton boys in charge"........"south-east benefits from our money".........with more of this !!!!!!!!!!!!........yadda yadda yadda)




sanchia -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 9:19:42 PM)

Apparently there are questions over whether Scotland could actually afford the removal of Trident as apparently it would cost billions and Scotland would be expected to pay the lions share. There are claims from the SNP that they would not bear the cost but Westminster apparently has agreements in place whereby if this came to pass the cost would come from the renegotiation of funds Scotland would receive if independence was voted for and the SNP are apparently aware of this. Also Salmond has been warned by senior NATO officials that if they do remove Trident then they shall not be allowed to join NATO, which is a part of the white paper promise, so something really does not add up here.

quote:

The blow to the First Ministerís hopes came at a secret meeting between Scottish Government officials and Nato officials at their headquarters in Brussels within the last few weeks.

The Holyrood delegation was told that no new member would be allowed to join if it had unresolved military or territorial disputes with other countries.

This response was seen as being a clear warning that the SNP administrationís pledge to remove Trident would be an obstacle to an independent Scotlandís membership.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 9:32:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsFinkelstein

I kept getting images when Salmond and Sturgeon were announcing it of being a kid again and getting bribed with lots of sweeties to behave. "If you vote yes we'll given you this, and this, and this, and this, and this!!"

It's very idealistic and sounds like a lovely country to live in, but not in anyway realistic. Where is all the money to pay for this going to come from?

(I have had a post on FB by a pro-independence ex-work colleague - it basically involved lots of !!!!!!!!! with random "better future for our kids"......."we pay in more than we take out"........"in charge of our own futures"..........."rich Eton boys in charge"........"south-east benefits from our money".........with more of this !!!!!!!!!!!!........yadda yadda yadda)


Dear heavens [&:]

And apparently the contribution thing is very cleverly chosen at 2011, and doesn't reflect current national support. How on earth did people actually start believing we were fantastically wealthy and being robbed? The people who go on about Westminster as if we're a colony and not fully and democratically represented is a nonsense. Last time that started I asked how they'd feel if Glasgow then tried to split off for some spurious non-representation reasons because the SNP clearly hate the West of Scotland [:D]




galvatron -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 9:39:44 PM)

It'll never get passed... no matter what the SNP can come up with the combined power of Tory/Labour/Lib Dem spin will out match them. Whether Scotland could survive on its own or not is immaterial, though the evidence for that looks contentious at best. They don't have the media backing to win any referendum.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (26/11/2013 10:21:06 PM)

Apparently the paper on the back up - more powers - should have been out by now though. And that seems to have disappeared.

What is the turnout requirement for this? I'm blanking on whether there even is one at the moment [:D]




Scruffybobby -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 2:16:11 PM)

I'm at question 82 of the 650 odd and the answer contains a glaring error (also given as the answer to q39). It says that under the FSCS personal savings will be protected to a minimum of £85000. That's the maximum your savings would be protected to with any banking group (as opposed to individual banks). Pretty poor show.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 2:17:23 PM)


Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.




sanchia -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 7:21:22 PM)

It seems like an incredibly poorly thought out piece which relies upon many proven falsehoods. The frightening thing is that even though the actual institutions mentioned such as the EU have actually come out previously to state the opposite of the SNP claims (the EU have stated that Scotland would need to reapply to join the EU which Salmond keeps claiming they will not and in that I tend to believe the actual institution in that instance) the supporters of independence seem to ignore this and keep claiming the falsehoods propagated by Salmond are true. I could understand if there was some argument over the claims but when it has outright been stated that they are not true then it doesn't make sense.

quote:

Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission (EC), said that any new nation state will have to apply for membership under international law.


How much clearer can it be? Also Spain most definitely would vote against Scotland joining the EU if they became independant as it would set a dangerous precedent for their own regions which are seeking such.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 7:30:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.



Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 7:33:11 PM)

Same goes for joinig the EU but not taking the Euro, how are they going to get out of that?
There are also the subsidies from Europe that Britain enjoys, there is an an assumption that Scotland will simpy take on those too.
Why would Europe agree to that when they are constantly trying to remove it from Britain?




superdan -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 7:33:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Where's Boaby because I need this explaining to me.
Assumptions around using the pound and remaining part of the EU which simply can't happen, they won't have the veto.
Getting rid of Trident and staying in NATO, again can't happen and then nothing about the Bank of England setting Scottish interest rates

Samond ought to have forgotten about getting 16 year olds able to vote and allowed the rest of the British Isles to be included.
They've have a much higher chance of it passing if they did, they've already got my vote.



Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


A Yougov poll showed that the majority of people in England and Wales would vote to keep Scotland in the Union. When asked the question "Should Scotland be an independent country?" 55% said No, 22% said Yes and the rest either didn't know or wouldn't vote.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 7:40:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (27/11/2013 9:38:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.


So you want it to succeed because you know it'll fail and it'll amuse you to see 5 million Britons completely fucked over? Not really getting the humour in that tbh.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 8:40:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49
Why? It sets a pretty poor show in being British if you try to vote to allow the secessionists to remove that Britishness from the rest of us.


I think it would be interesting if the rest of us got a vote on if they want Scotland to continue being part of Britain.
Also I think the indepedance vote is doomed to fail and I'll like to see it go through just to see it fall on its arse and we'll never have to see Salmond ever again.


So you want it to succeed because you know it'll fail and it'll amuse you to see 5 million Britons completely fucked over? Not really getting the humour in that tbh.

If there's that much underlying hate in the national consciousness against another member of the British Isles that a none descript folk song, written only 50 years ago, becomes the unofficial national anthem then I think the humour is valid. Anyway , you wouldn't be fucked over, it would be the land of milk and honey, just ask Alex.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 11:14:57 AM)

As opposed to an official national anthem that used to have an anti-Scots verse?

What an odd argument to make.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 11:35:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

As opposed to an official national anthem that used to have an anti-Scots verse?

What an odd argument to make.

Kind of answered it yourself.




elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 12:38:11 PM)

Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.




Flatulent_Bob -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 1:03:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.




Qwerty Norris -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 4:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.




You'd be surprised. It really splits the nation - much like this upcoming clusterfuck of agenda setting by both sides.

Personally, I'm someone who leans towards the idea of independence for a fairly simple, yet extremely compelling reason (for me anyway). I am however not naive to assume that the transition would be anything less than traumatic and deeply uncertain (economically, constitutionally etc) - something which the SNP and this so called white paper refuses to acknowledge. It's a list of hopes and dreams, not a blueprint for a plan of action. Alas, it will not convert the sceptics, which is a pity.







elab49 -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 4:23:07 PM)

I think that's exactly the point. There are many who deeply wish independence but are not party political and, IMO, this fails them completely. It's not the blueprint they can take to those opposed to argue the concept.

The SNP have stiffed this badly. Too much in there that's to easy a target.




Shifty Bench -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 5:38:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flatulent_Bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: elab49

Not really - it still exists around, it's not a new song. Although the point made was that it was an odd way to go in the discussion.


Flower of Scotland is a relative new song though and has only recently been really brought to the for of the potential national anthem.
It's sentiments are quite clear and must have quite a bit of popularity to have become the unofficial national anthem.



I am 37 and I couldn't sing anything of that song passed the first line. [&:]

All this talk of national anthems reminds me of this- click




Qwerty Norris -> RE: Scottish independence debate (28/11/2013 6:41:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shifty Bench


All this talk of national anthems reminds me of this- click


Love that sketch...and that whole performance - despite the horrendous cackling from one deranged audience member in the first twenty minutes. [:D]

Speaking of youtube videos, perhaps the SNP can utilise this as a case for separation?




demoncleaner -> RE: Scottish independence debate (29/11/2013 2:31:39 AM)

I'll only give my two cents because I got involved in a facebook discussion about this.

But I want to say this...

I'm from South Armagh, I'm a Nationalist...only by birth...and I must be unique in that I don't want a united Ireland. I grew up thinking that the Brits were to be hated. And then I went to America and found their working class to be racist, bigot scum. And when I got home I realised the great moral restituition in the Britishness of Dickens, Shakespeare, Monty Python, Blackadder, Doctor Who, Gary Oldman, Mike Leigh, Jon Ronson, The National Theatre...that sense of being British. And I want to be part of that idea of Britishness.

I was brought up to be anti Brit...but I'm very anti-American...but that's a different story.

The point is, I discovered Noam Chomsky and Socialism and "we're all in this together" syndrome this year. I don't like the idea of Scottish independence when one of its defining things is courting Capitalism, and getting into the bed with big business as the expense you pay for national pride and a stab at pageantry.

Northern Ireland nationalists have got over this idea of pride. It's caused a lot of hassle here. The union is stronger together...and I do mean a Federal Europe under a social democratic veneer. It's the only way we can, together, (Europe) take down the abject insanity of a US-led faith in a free-market.

Anyway. I'm not educated about the issue. But this is just a post-card warning about the romantic trappings of nationalism...

....been there. Bought the T-shirt. Anything for a quite life. That's modern-day Northern Ireland.




Shifty Bench -> RE: Scottish independence debate (29/11/2013 3:11:48 AM)

I'm Scottish and I was brought up to treat people the way I want to be treated myself. I have never hated the English, I have never had any reason to. I have read and heard a lot of English people say 'let them go, who needs them' as though every single one of us wants Independence. It's bullshit. I know a lot of Scots who absolutely hate the idea and a lot of those who want it just don't bloody understand it. There is dislike on both sides, I get that, I don't like it but I get it but I think Independence would be a bad idea for everyone in the UK, not just us.




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