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Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 1:43:20 PM)

How does that answer help the people who are wanting a better life under a different goverment in Syria?

No one is saying the West hasn't screwed up the Middle East but we are where we are and so what is the solution? Get away from the rethoric - in terms of real actions - people are being killed by their own goverment. They want our help. What do we do?




Deviation -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 1:49:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Get away from the rethoric - in terms of real actions - people are being killed by their own goverment. They want our help. What do we do?


Stand idle and blame all the world's ills on the Americans?

That wouldn't require much work.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 1:53:41 PM)

It's really a problem the middle east should deal with itself - if it wasn't a collection of western stooges doing our bidding and there was real democracy allowed there then they would have the armies and will to solve these problems.

As for the situation today - if we hadn't have armed and trained up these rebels the place wouldn't be heading down the same route as Iraq - It was a mistake to get involved, it was a clear move by western powers to knock off another non-compliant arab regime and result as per usual is death and destruction.

As for asking what we should do now - Arab armies and peacekeeping forces should be involved to help bring peace to the country. But this is not an acceptable course of action for Western powers as they need to be in control of the end game. I expect Syria will get bombed sometime soon though.





Deviation -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:03:32 PM)

You'd think if the Assad regime had been a little bit more responsible and actually helped the country to progress, the country wouldn't be going this road.

And last time I checked, the Arab League seems to be doing nothing useful as well.




Ghidorah -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:07:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

How does that answer help the people who are wanting a better life under a different goverment in Syria?

No one is saying the West hasn't screwed up the Middle East but we are where we are and so what is the solution? Get away from the rethoric - in terms of real actions - people are being killed by their own goverment. They want our help. What do we do?



Syria is well defended against any possible attacks from Israel. However out of no where the Syrians rebels are well equiped to take out Russian tanks and are giving the army a challege. No doubt in my mind there are defectors but it does look like at least one country is supplying the rebels. It's a question of time before Russia get involved or Iran send in their own military.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:12:57 PM)

Yeah totally agree but you have to remember the Arab league are headed by the Saudis who are America's no.1 arab stooge. They have no power in the region.

As for Assad there's no doubt he's a c**t, the reason I've been against us getting involved is because of the ongoing bloodbath that is Iraq.

When the Iraq War took place even though I was against it I did hope I would be proved wrong and things would turn out ok but they didn't - I feel the same with Syria, hopefully at some point things can calm down. Assad should really just accept his number is up but he's a dictator after all and they don't suddenly roll over.




Deviation -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:17:10 PM)

But the Saudi government themselves want the Americans there, I believe the King themselves called them, no matter what bin Laden believes. Also, Iraq is a different issue. Iraq was an invasion in a country with no major conflict going on, this is more akin to Libya, with a less lunatic dictator.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:30:33 PM)

The Saudis are controlled by the Americans - they are a dictatorship as well remember but are left untouched because they do what the Americans want. Don't forget that the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis but this was never followed up.

Iraq is part of the same game really - the whole point of policy towards the middle east over the past 100 years or so has been to control the oil. That's why we've knocked off democracies in the region and helped the likes of Saddam to power.

These recent wars and bombings starting with Iraq have really been a direct move against dictatorships that had gained a degree of autonomy i.e. were no longer in our pockets. Iraq > Libya > Syria > Iran is how the dominoes will fall. At the same time there will be no democracy for the Saudis or the Palestinians or any moves to make Israel bow down to international law.

Egypt was slightly different because the people themselves actually managed to knock off a US backed dictator, they are having difficulties now because the army who were funded by the Americans are trying their best to hold onto power.




SWOTBM -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 2:42:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

But the Saudi government themselves want the Americans there, I believe the King themselves called them, no matter what bin Laden believes. Also, Iraq is a different issue. Iraq was an invasion in a country with no major conflict going on, this is more akin to Libya, with a less lunatic dictator.


But with Libya there was an international consensus, or a lack of opposition, for intervention. If there is any outside involvement here, then it is unjustified violation of Syria's soveriegnty.

Plus, it leaves the countries involved open to charges of hypocrisy (North Korea anyone? I'm sure they could use our help, why don't we ferment revolution there), but effectively gives other countries the licence to do the same (other countries supplying arms to Palestinians....).




boaby -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 3:02:50 PM)

The Arab League may be horribly flawed just now but if the Middle East is ever gonna get sorted out it has to be internal. All "the west", russia, China and anyone else can do is summon the humanity to stop trying to manipulate the region for their own ends.

When I say it like that it sounds utterly hopeless.

Our democracy developed over centuries. The notion that a stable democracy can emerge from repressive dictatorships in a generation seems a hopeless one to me. All the external powers peering into the Middle East seem bent upon stability. Just check out the EU - democracy threatens to break out in Greece and Italy. BLAM. Markets got mental, technocrats appointed.

What's my point? People don't matter. People with control over resources matter. And so the Middle East is phucked. America is phucked. Europe is phucked. Britain is phucked. Russia is phucked. We're all phucked.

Of course I'd rather be phucked in a comfy chair with a roof, a fridge and a cool pair of trainers than phucked in the Middle East or Africa.




Deviation -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 6:24:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

The Saudis are controlled by the Americans - they are a dictatorship as well remember but are left untouched because they do what the Americans want. Don't forget that the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis but this was never followed up.



They're mosty there for security as well, there's a reason on why the king wants them there, and that's because the country has internal trouble coming from within. I've heard things that there are theocrats in Saudi Arabia that even worse than the King himself, Taliban level of bad (which they aided), and the King has to deal with these people.

quote:

Iraq is part of the same game really - the whole point of policy towards the middle east over the past 100 years or so has been to control the oil. That's why we've knocked off democracies in the region and helped the likes of Saddam to power.


Which in turn, have absoutely nothing to do with what is happening in Syria, or happened in Libya. Is Syria a democracy? No, it isn't, so this isn't a sort-of Mosaddegh situation. Is it a mostly calm situation where people aren't making a civil war agaisnt a Baathist regime? No, it isn't. It's not close to being Iraq. Not even Afghanistan was totally like Iraq. This is not the 70s and the whole pan-Arabist movement.

quote:

These recent wars and bombings starting with Iraq have really been a direct move against dictatorships that had gained a degree of autonomy i.e. were no longer in our pockets. Iraq > Libya > Syria > Iran is how the dominoes will fall. At the same time there will be no democracy for the Saudis or the Palestinians or any moves to make Israel bow down to international law.


OH GOSH, I didn't know there was massive civil wars going on in Iraq and right now Iran, no wait, there isn't.

Also, I don't think you comprehend what forces you sometimes find in Saudi Arabia.

quote:


Egypt was slightly different because the people themselves actually managed to knock off a US backed dictator, they are having difficulties now because the army who were funded by the Americans are trying their best to hold onto power.


They did, but that's because like Ben Ali in Tunisia, Mubarak stepped down in time before shit hit the fan greatly. This did not happen in Libya and still hasn't happened in Syria. The revolution in Libya was close to failure at some moments. Oh, and I live in country close to Libya, call me glad that Gaddafhi is gone.

quote:



But with Libya there was an international consensus, or a lack of opposition, for intervention. If there is any outside involvement here, then it is unjustified violation of Syria's soveriegnty.


That's true but beyond my point, mine was that even that factor it still is closer to Libya than it will ever be to Iraq.




horribleives -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 8:24:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So Syria was a place of rainbows and golddust?


Iraq was, wasn't it? It must've been, Michael Moore said so.


What seems to bypass most people is the fact that Iraq was a mess because of us in the first place, Saddam was helped to power by the CIA.While he went about his business of oppressing his own people we backed and armed him.



(off-topic) I couldn't agree more and I was totally opposed to that war but I'm not sure what that's got to do with Moore depicting pre-invasion Iraq as a peaceful utopia full of happy famillies attending weddings and throwing parties while their beaming kids play on ferris wheels and ride their bikes in the street.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (20/7/2012 1:54:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

The Saudis are controlled by the Americans - they are a dictatorship as well remember but are left untouched because they do what the Americans want. Don't forget that the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis but this was never followed up.



They're mosty there for security as well, there's a reason on why the king wants them there, and that's because the country has internal trouble coming from within. I've heard things that there are theocrats in Saudi Arabia that even worse than the King himself, Taliban level of bad (which they aided), and the King has to deal with these people.

The Saudi royal family are US stooges in a dictatorship backed by the Americans. There is nothing really else to add to that - to say they are better than some theocrats is the standard response from people who don't want democracy in the middle east, i.e. we can't give them freedom because the nutters will get in.

quote:

Iraq is part of the same game really - the whole point of policy towards the middle east over the past 100 years or so has been to control the oil. That's why we've knocked off democracies in the region and helped the likes of Saddam to power.


Which in turn, have absoutely nothing to do with what is happening in Syria, or happened in Libya. Is Syria a democracy? No, it isn't, so this isn't a sort-of Mosaddegh situation. Is it a mostly calm situation where people aren't making a civil war agaisnt a Baathist regime? No, it isn't. It's not close to being Iraq. Not even Afghanistan was totally like Iraq. This is not the 70s and the whole pan-Arabist movement.

It's the same game being played out though that's my point, the systematic knocking off of regimes not in our pockets. Iraq was a bloody mess (and proved extremely costly) so the tactics changed to arming and training rebels.


quote:

These recent wars and bombings starting with Iraq have really been a direct move against dictatorships that had gained a degree of autonomy i.e. were no longer in our pockets. Iraq > Libya > Syria > Iran is how the dominoes will fall. At the same time there will be no democracy for the Saudis or the Palestinians or any moves to make Israel bow down to international law.


OH GOSH, I didn't know there was massive civil wars going on in Iraq and right now Iran, no wait, there isn't.

So what's your point? Iraq has been dealt with, Iran is now being hammered by sanctions and having people assassinated within it's borders. They are next on the list.

Also, I don't think you comprehend what forces you sometimes find in Saudi Arabia.

quote:


Egypt was slightly different because the people themselves actually managed to knock off a US backed dictator, they are having difficulties now because the army who were funded by the Americans are trying their best to hold onto power.


They did, but that's because like Ben Ali in Tunisia, Mubarak stepped down in time before shit hit the fan greatly. This did not happen in Libya and still hasn't happened in Syria. The revolution in Libya was close to failure at some moments. Oh, and I live in country close to Libya, call me glad that Gaddafhi is gone.

It's great Gaddafi's gone and I hope Libya turns out ok - I just wish we didn't sell him hundreds of millions in arms and send anti-Gaddafi activists to be tortured one minute, and then say he's the worst scum of the earth the next.

quote:



But with Libya there was an international consensus, or a lack of opposition, for intervention. If there is any outside involvement here, then it is unjustified violation of Syria's soveriegnty.


That's true but beyond my point, mine was that even that factor it still is closer to Libya than it will ever be to Iraq.


I don't agree, Iraq effectively was in civil wat with the sectarian attacks the place fell apart and Syria is going down the same route.

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

(off-topic) I couldn't agree more and I was totally opposed to that war but I'm not sure what that's got to do with Moore depicting pre-invasion Iraq as a peaceful utopia full of happy famillies attending weddings and throwing parties while their beaming kids play on ferris wheels and ride their bikes in the street.


The truly sad fact about Iraq is that it was actually better off under Saddam Hussein - the amount of death that has been unleashed on that country even before the Blair-Bush war with the sanctions is horrific.




Spaldron -> RE: Syria Protests (27/7/2012 6:32:51 PM)

Looks like the Assad regime will launch a major attack on Aleppo while the world is distracted by the Olympic corporate juggernaut.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/middle-east-live/2012/jul/27/syria-us-fears-aleppo-massacre-live




Ghidorah -> RE: Syria Protests (7/8/2012 10:03:34 PM)

Iran pledge support to Assad

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19160410

At the moment it's not known what the support is or how Iran will accomplish this. What is coming clear this isn't a simplistic civil war but people of a nation defending their family and friends against a tyrant. It's a nation standing up to a bully who trying to reclaim Syria by military means. The reason why the military is having so much problem is because most of the Syrians oppose Assad and using their own guns to defend themselves.
It make Iran look very bad as an outsider want to oppress a nation. I don't think the Syrians will forget that anytime soon.




Chief Wiggum -> RE: Syria Protests (7/8/2012 10:44:21 PM)

Syria has been a vassal state for Iran for a while now, actually vassal state may be putting it strongly, but certainly a subservient ally (yes, yes, like the uk to the US) due to the Allawi rulers beliefs and the comparitive lack of petrodollars Syria has. Allowing revolutionary guards to train HAMAS (caps for acronym, not emphasis) and funnel cash to Hizb'allah are part of this, but you also have the sphere of influence angle, with an ally in power in Syria, Iran has much more influence with Iraq, for one thing, and the rest of the fertile crescent for another.

I would say that they have been providing support for quite a while, and are coming clean about it now; seeing as the US's support for the FSA has now become overt I would say it's as a direct response to that. Especially if you look at the language used by the Iranian foreign Minister - "Axis of Resistance" sounds awfully similar to a certain 2003 quote doesn't it.

I'd actually say that this may make things interesting (from an International Relations study perspective), and could conceivably become a US/Iran proxy war - with both sides using proxies.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (8/8/2012 7:53:43 PM)

I think they are both natural allies seeing as they are targets for regime change, you'd expect them to help each other out as if and when one falls the target sight moves onto the other - I don't think Iran actually controls Syria in any way though.




NinjaShortbread212 -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 3:30:48 AM)

Just fucking sick. [:@]

GRAPHIC IMAGE BELOW

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/08/07/cia-terrorists-syria-hang-child-public-executing-family-162851/




DancingClown -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 7:24:19 AM)

Erm, I think a warning about that link might be needed there, Ninj. The story itself (if it's true) is bad enough without graphic photos. How fucking lovely. Plus that is astonishingly biased, conspiracy-driven reporting.

Oh fucking hell does someone know a good hypnotist so I can erase that fucking image from my head? Really didn't need to see that.




NinjaShortbread212 -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 1:47:19 PM)

To be fair, I did write "fucking sick" before the link. The media have shown graphic images of even decapitated bodies before. Surely it's a good thing to show what these monsters are doing? the kind of "I don't want to see that" attitude is exactly what wraps the Western World up in cotton wool.




elab49 -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 2:25:16 PM)

I'm not sure how graphic it needs to be before people mentally switch off, which may be counter-productive, but the news do make clear the nature of the content before showing it - maybe a bit more info on the actual content might be a more helpful warning? Editing the post was appreciated [:)]

The newspapers do occasionally as well but there are greater problems in whether people can choose to see them - all the hoohah over the details pics of Gaddafi, e.g.




NinjaShortbread212 -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 2:30:33 PM)

No problem, Elab. Thanks for the advice. [:)]




Chief Wiggum -> RE: Syria Protests (9/8/2012 2:39:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I think they are both natural allies seeing as they are targets for regime change, you'd expect them to help each other out as if and when one falls the target sight moves onto the other - I don't think Iran actually controls Syria in any way though.


They've been allies for much longer than regime change has been on the cards, going back 20 years or so - partly because of the material support given to HAMAS (again capitalisation for acronym, rather than for emphasis) and Hizb'allah from Iran that funnelled through Syrian hands, bear in mind that Lebanon was basically a vassal state of Syria until very recently (last 10 years or so). But also due to the simple fact that there are a few shia shrines in Syria, so you have hundreds of years of pilgrimage acting as a catalyst for good relations between the two nations.

The Syria/Iran relationship is very similar to the US/Saudi one - one side does not control the other, but there is definitely a subservient partner in the alliance - in this case its very much Syria - they have far fewer rescources than Iran and are militarily weaker, especially since the decline of the Soviet Union. They provide a useful channel for Iran to supply Hizb'allah and they shelter HAMAS (acronym, remember) allowing Iran to use them to their advantage.


EDIT - RE: Ninj's Link


Whilst the Story itself is disgusting, the reporting on this guy's blog is shocking and doesn't make me inclined to believe this is the work of AQ - All I can see for sure is that a child was hanged, there is no footage of who did it - the video on the page relates to CNN interviews.

for one thing he uses Iranian semi-state news agency FARS as his primary, and seemingly only, source, which in turn isn't the primary source, but rather they attribute the story to Iraq's Qanon News agency (which I can only find references to in reposts of this story) So I'm even less inclined to believe it having done some digging.

He also congruates the idea of the FSA and the AQ affilliate being the same (I don't doubt that they're on the same side, I just doubt that they're coordinating with each other), which seems like he just has an axe to grind, rather than actually reporting news - his over the top hyperbole in the rest of his pages suggests that he is more interested in page clicks than portraying unbiased facts as they are on the ground.

He also accuses the US of funding the AQ affilliate, but provides no source (apart from links back to his own blog that contain no mention of the actual evidence/ source). I have no doubt that the US is funding the FSA (because Obama admitted it the other day), but as has been pointed out earlier in this thread the FSA is just the best known of a number of groups fighting against the Assad regime. It's like saying that because the US is giving aid to the FATAH controlled parts of the Palestinian Authority, they're funding HAMAS. It is a non-sequiter.




Erlenmeyer Flask -> RE: Syria Protests (13/8/2012 10:21:37 PM)

[&:]




boaby -> RE: Syria Protests (4/10/2012 7:00:37 AM)

So, Turkey...

How long until we all die?

Are we to assume that the Syrian government and army are so batsh!t mental as to provoke an external power to become openly involved against them? They are clearly "bad" but are they batsh!t crazy too?

Is it possible that the rebels might have prodded an appropriate neighbour to involve themselves? Or do they not have their mitts on the kind of weapons doing the damage in Turkey?

Or are the Syrian army just crap at aiming?

All very weird.




DancingClown -> RE: Syria Protests (4/10/2012 7:16:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

Or are the Syrian army just crap at aiming?



Well, they're certainly indiscriminate.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (4/10/2012 10:35:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

So, Turkey...

How long until we all die?

Are we to assume that the Syrian government and army are so batsh!t mental as to provoke an external power to become openly involved against them? They are clearly "bad" but are they batsh!t crazy too?

Is it possible that the rebels might have prodded an appropriate neighbour to involve themselves? Or do they not have their mitts on the kind of weapons doing the damage in Turkey?

Or are the Syrian army just crap at aiming?

All very weird.


Turkey in conjunction with the CIA are one of the countries arming the rebels along with Qatar and the Saudis. Whatever you think about the Syrians the Turks have fired the first shot here :

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100159613/syrian-rebels-say-turkey-is-arming-and-training-them/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0





boaby -> RE: Syria Protests (4/10/2012 11:13:54 AM)

Aye. I get that there's shady stuff going on. I know sod all about the ins and outs of it.

What I don't get is if you're Assad why you'd wanna amp up involvement to a news channel level. Does he think that ends well for him? Does he think anyone is gonna dive in on his side?

What does Assad reckon a win is? How does he reckon provoking Turkey to amped up intervention furthers his aims?




Ghidorah -> RE: Syria Protests (5/10/2012 10:04:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker


quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

So, Turkey...

How long until we all die?

Are we to assume that the Syrian government and army are so batsh!t mental as to provoke an external power to become openly involved against them? They are clearly "bad" but are they batsh!t crazy too?

Is it possible that the rebels might have prodded an appropriate neighbour to involve themselves? Or do they not have their mitts on the kind of weapons doing the damage in Turkey?

Or are the Syrian army just crap at aiming?

All very weird.


Turkey in conjunction with the CIA are one of the countries arming the rebels along with Qatar and the Saudis. Whatever you think about the Syrians the Turks have fired the first shot here :

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/michaelweiss/100159613/syrian-rebels-say-turkey-is-arming-and-training-them/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0





I don't know if you had seen Babylon 5. If not I would highly recommend purchasing boxsets season 1 to season 4. There is also a TV movie called Babylon 5 In The Beginning but it's best to watch that after season 3 for spoiler reasons. Babylon 5 is very political and about human setting up a 'League Of Nations' style council. What happened is humans got into a misunderstanding with advance aliens and led to war. The reason i brought this show up because it's base on real events and sadly these events are being repeated every decade. Syria's civil war at the moment feels like HUMAN civil war in Babylon 5.

The accidental shelling of Turkish people is just a painful reminder of what a daily event for a Syrian. This isn't a seperatist movement trying to over throw Assad. Assad has already been overthrown and what he is doing is using his remaining military to bomb the Syrian people into submission. He had lost total control of his country and in a way Syria is now smaller states. The Kurds has set up their own state without any opposition. Assad is too weak military to reclaim town and cities. Politically as a leader he can't reunite the Syrians except 85% of them want him dead. He has lost and he is never going to take control of Syria again.




sanchia -> RE: Syria Protests (23/11/2012 10:21:35 PM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20458148

So protests begin about the new Egyptian President as he makes rules that he can essentially rule by decree with no one else having power to revoke them. It appears people are beginning to fear he may turn into even more of a despot than his predecessor who never had that level of power.




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