RE: Syria Protests (Full Version)

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Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:20:40 PM)

So suicide bombers on the side of the rebels and their western backers? Strange one that....




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:27:20 PM)

What are you on about?




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:33:15 PM)

Why are suicide bombers attacking the Syrians?




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:39:12 PM)

Well sadly with the blood shed it isn't hard to envision someone who has lost a family etc seeking revenge how they best could.

It doesn't need to be a global conspiracy.




Ghidorah -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:59:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

So suicide bombers on the side of the rebels and their western backers? Strange one that....



There is a big difference here. Most suicide bombers are intended to create an enivronment of fear and rarely do they succeed towards their agenda. It's a waste of resources of training them up/brainwashing them only to send them out to blow themselves up and killing many civilians. It appear their how purpose of them is just to kill many people as possible and not to create change.

This bodyguard/suicide bomber saw a chance to end Syria current civil war. His death may of saved thousands and he could of saved tens of thousands if killed more of Assad's government. Syria's civil war could of ended today.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 1:59:20 PM)

I've found the rise of suicide bombings in conflicts where America has been involved really disturbing, there were precisely none in Iraq until after the US went in and none in Afghanistan until after the Iraq War. Even Iran has seen these kinds of bombings within it's borders.

The weird thing is the vast majority of these attacks have not actually been against US/ Nato forces which does make you wonder who co-ordinates these things and for what end. Certainly in Iraq they have been used to massively destabilise and weaken the country and ferment civil war.

Now suddenly we see suicide bomb attacks against the Syrians? Extremely odd - or maybe not that odd looking at the murderous history of agencies like the CIA






Ghidorah -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 2:20:07 PM)

While I agree around 99% of suicide bombers are wrong but this bodyguard saw a chance to end the war and he took it. We have no idea what going on in these Assad meetings and we doesn't know if these bodyguards are constantly present to hear everything they say. The bodyguard may of saw the needs to act and don't forget these people committed war crimes.




Woger -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 3:25:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I've found the rise of suicide bombings in conflicts where America has been involved really disturbing, there were precisely none in Iraq until after the US went in and none in Afghanistan until after the Iraq War. Even Iran has seen these kinds of bombings within it's borders.

The weird thing is the vast majority of these attacks have not actually been against US/ Nato forces which does make you wonder who co-ordinates these things and for what end. Certainly in Iraq they have been used to massively destabilise and weaken the country and ferment civil war.

Now suddenly we see suicide bomb attacks against the Syrians? Extremely odd - or maybe not that odd looking at the murderous history of agencies like the CIA





CIA suicide bombers?
You know you can criticise US foreign policy without trying to absolve scum bags of blame/responsibility.




boaby -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 3:42:43 PM)

So. A suicide attack. 3 senior members of Assad's regime. Bomber unknown. At least 2 different groups claiming it.

As far as I can tell that's all that is known. The rest is either theory based on perceived probabilities or wild speculation.

Motivation of the bomber? Gimme a break. Plans/strategies/infrastructure/conspiracy/group(s) behind the attack? Gimme a break.





Woger -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 3:50:09 PM)

Up coming power vacumm, land full of scum bags, suicide attack. Film at 11.




Spaldron -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 4:42:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

I've found the rise of suicide bombings in conflicts where America has been involved really disturbing, there were precisely none in Iraq until after the US went in and none in Afghanistan until after the Iraq War. Even Iran has seen these kinds of bombings within it's borders.

The weird thing is the vast majority of these attacks have not actually been against US/ Nato forces which does make you wonder who co-ordinates these things and for what end. Certainly in Iraq they have been used to massively destabilise and weaken the country and ferment civil war.

Now suddenly we see suicide bomb attacks against the Syrians? Extremely odd - or maybe not that odd looking at the murderous history of agencies like the CIA





CIA suicide bombers?
You know you can criticise US foreign policy without trying to absolve scum bags of blame/responsibility.


I don't think Fluke is suggesting actual CIA bombers, more like CIA 'backed' suicide bombers. This practice isn't too much of a stretch considering half the rebels in Syria are supported in one way or another by the CIA.




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 4:56:38 PM)

So are we saying the CIA shouldn't be supporting the rebels?




SWOTBM -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 5:10:28 PM)

So are we saying we should allow one country to infringe the national sovereignty of another country?




Woger -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 5:15:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

So are we saying we should allow one country to infringe the national sovereignty of another country?


The problem is then if the international community didn't do anything and things went completely and utterly to hell then there would be cries of abandonment (like Rwanda, the Balkans to a degree), non abondonment means taking sides which is very risky.




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 5:18:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

So are we saying we should allow one country to infringe the national sovereignty of another country?


Are you for non-intervention full stop?




SWOTBM -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 5:30:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger


quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

So are we saying we should allow one country to infringe the national sovereignty of another country?


The problem is then if the international community didn't do anything and things went completely and utterly to hell then there would be cries of abandonment (like Rwanda, the Balkans to a degree), non abondonment means taking sides which is very risky.


Totally agree. But in this case intervention, if there is indeed any outside involvement, seems to be throwing petrol onto the fire by provoking a bloody civil war.

If there has to be intervention then it should be multilateral. I get that the international community (read Russia and China) may be slow to react to situations like this, but I think national sovereignty has to be respected until an international consensus is formed.




Woger -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 5:33:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Woger


quote:

ORIGINAL: SWOTBM

So are we saying we should allow one country to infringe the national sovereignty of another country?


The problem is then if the international community didn't do anything and things went completely and utterly to hell then there would be cries of abandonment (like Rwanda, the Balkans to a degree), non abondonment means taking sides which is very risky.


Totally agree. But in this case intervention, if there is indeed any outside involvement, seems to be throwing petrol onto the fire by provoking a bloody civil war.

If there has to be intervention then it should be multilateral. I get that the international community (read Russia and China) may be slow to react to situations like this, but I think national sovereignty has to be respected until an international consensus is formed.


Agree but so far international consensus seems to be Kofi Anann saying down with this sort of thing.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:07:16 PM)

Where did these rebels suddenly appear from? Well trained and heavily armed groups rarely spring up from nowhere - this means they have been funded and trained by someone. The simple fact is if they weren't armed to the teeth by foreign powers and let loose, there would not now be a catastrophe unfolding in Syria.

The question that people need to ask themselves is not whether we should now intervene to stop the crisis, it's that should we in the first place be fermenting civil wars that go onto kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.

As for the CIA being behind bomb attacks of course I'm speculating, but I really go on their past performance to see what they are capable of. Once you know the facts it's clear they are pretty monstrous, and the indirect funding/ training of terrorists would be right up their street. They've destabiised a hundred countries over the years using horrendous methods.




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:10:53 PM)

So Syria was a place of rainbows and golddust?

Your bias really gets the better of you sometimes Fluke.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:11:54 PM)

Is it better or worse now?




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:13:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

Is it better or worse now?


So you are supportive of the regime?




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:21:12 PM)

You didn't answer my question by the way - Syria's a dictatorship so you can't support them, but on the other hand there's other considerations to be had apart from knocking off the governments of oil rich nations - like the thousands of civilians who are gonna get killed when you instigate another bout of regime change.

So no I don't approve of the Syrian regime but approve even less of plunging countries into civil war




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:36:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

You didn't answer my question by the way - Syria's a dictatorship so you can't support them, but on the other hand there's other considerations to be had apart from knocking off the governments of oil rich nations - like the thousands of civilians who are gonna get killed when you instigate another bout of regime change.

So no I don't approve of the Syrian regime but approve even less of plunging countries into civil war


But the people themselves rose up. So unless you are suggesting this was all artifically constructed then why the heck should we not help them against a regime that kills its own soliders if they don't shoot civillians?




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 7:37:18 PM)

And as for better or worse - of course it is worse now. But does that mean people shouldn't rise up against goverments that oppress them?




Spaldron -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 8:10:14 PM)

See the violence inherent in the system!




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 8:19:20 PM)

People wanting freedom from dictators is not artificial - what is artificial is arming groups within countries to start wars.

The problem is the rebels are the same calibre of patsy that have been used in various countries to knock off regimes that are not compliant to Western nations. They think they are fighting for freedom, the truth is they are fighting for Western interests, oil companies and corporations.

Fighting oppressors is all good but not when the lot who are helping you have spent decades arming and backing oppressors in the same region!!!




Rgirvan44 -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 8:28:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fluke Skywalker

People wanting freedom from dictators is not artificial - what is artificial is arming groups within countries to start wars.

The problem is the rebels are the same calibre of patsy that have been used in various countries to knock off regimes that are not compliant to Western nations. They think they are fighting for freedom, the truth is they are fighting for Western interests, oil companies and corporations.

Fighting oppressors is all good but not when the lot who are helping you have spent decades arming and backing oppressors in the same region!!!


So what would your answer be? Leave the those that rose up to their fate?




horribleives -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 8:37:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So Syria was a place of rainbows and golddust?


Iraq was, wasn't it? It must've been, Michael Moore said so.




boaby -> RE: Syria Protests (18/7/2012 9:11:57 PM)

This is where the UN should do more.

Yes, I agree, it's hard to see how it can in the current situation and system. Perhaps the veto system  needs to be ammended.

I don't know if the capabilities of the rebels can be explained by a steadily - and now apparently rapidly - increasing rate of defection by Assad's forces. I wouldn't rule it out though.

Given that the main advantages Assad had at the start - an Air Force and Artilery - remain apparently effective I imagine if external governments are offering practical support that they're making a rickets of it. Not seen any crashed planes on the news, or heard any reports of it. Any old muppet can get their mitts on an AK47. RPGs, grenades can't be that hard with the help of defectors. An internet connection can enable making a bomb from stuff even the A-Team would struggle with.

Like Egypt there hasn't been a visible figurehead of the rebels. There doesn't appear to be an obvious route to an interim government - for all its faults the stance of the Egyptian military at least kept things relatively controlled and allowed a semblence of governance in the aftermath. Syria won't have that luxury. The UN or Arab League will surely have to make up a peace-keeping presence for a while.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Syria Protests (19/7/2012 1:32:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: horribleives

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So Syria was a place of rainbows and golddust?


Iraq was, wasn't it? It must've been, Michael Moore said so.


What seems to bypass most people is the fact that Iraq was a mess because of us in the first place, Saddam was helped to power by the CIA.While he went about his business oppressing his own people we backed and armed him.

Then one day he goes too far and he gets taken out - and we pat ourselves on the back because we did the 'right' thing - absolutely fucking hysterical.

quote:

ORIGINAL: boaby

for all its faults the stance of the Egyptian military at least kept things relatively controlled and allowed a semblence of governance in the aftermath. Syria won't have that luxury. The UN or Arab League will surely have to make up a peace-keeping presence for a while.


The Egyptian military are the same bastards who helped keep the Egyptians down for years with the help of billions of dollars from the Americans. The Americans would prefer them to stay in power but can't say it openly.

In terms of Syria as long as there is an army at the end of the day you have a chance of keeping some security. In Iraq one of the worst mistakes was disbanding the army who turned into insurgents.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

So what would your answer be? Leave the those that rose up to their fate?



Leaving people to their fate - that would be nice for the people of that region, they would be a lot better off if we hadn't tried our damndest to fuck them over constantly for the past 100 years.

My answer is how about we stop playing games with the lives of the people of the middle east, stop helping dictators to power, stop arming and training them, stop being utter hypocrites when it comes to countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Israel - in short we need to stop acting like arseholes! The vast majority of the problems in the middle east have been caused by us because of the need to control the oil of the region.




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