RE: Egypt Protests (Full Version)

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Ghidorah -> RE: Egypt Protests (21/2/2011 5:48:47 PM)

Some of the videos uploaded on youtube are disturbing. It's barbaric watching peacefull protesters either being machine gunned or sniped.
My biggest concern is the aftermath of these revolutions. Who will take over and how can they get help when their neighbours themselves are in a middle of a revolution?




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (21/2/2011 5:56:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tarantinofan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sway

quote:

ORIGINAL: tarantinofan

I have a feeling that the bloodshed that follows in post revolutionary Libya will be far worse.



By this do you mean a Libya after a successful revolution? I.e the power struggles that will ensue in Gaddafi's absence? Or following a failed revolutionary movement which indeed could have far worse consequences for the Libyans.



I mean if the revolution is successful. In a recently televised address, Qaddafi's son warned of the threat of a civil war in the absence of a strong leader and whilst I have no doubts that he is simply fear mongering and trying to appeal to moderates in the country (the same argument applied to Saddam; a brutal dictator but one who kept stability and prevented what we are now seeing in Iraq), he does raise a valuable point. Libyans attachment to clans and tribes as opposed to a strong centralized government (see this NY Times article, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/africa/22libya.html?_r=1&hp) could see a violent power struggle in the wake of a successful revolution, or simply a country in which local, tribal laws take precedent. I'm not sure how many of these tribes adhere to strict Islamic codes though. Regardless, Libya doesn't have a template for democracy. But all this is not to say I am in favour of Qaddafi and against any revolution.



Ah ok.  I'm not very clued up with the politics of all these Middle Eastern countries whose politics have suddenly flung them to the fore of national news, so I'm trying to learn as I go along, and I did wonder how fragmented it is in Libya, and indeed any of the other countries.   I read about Gaddafi's son and him speaking about the threat of civil war and felt much the same as you've written - that despite this being a scare tactic, it would probably also hold some value. 

It's interesting times to say the least.  




JessFranco -> RE: Egypt Protests (21/2/2011 7:20:38 PM)

This is incredible. Reports are that Benghazi is now in the control of the revolutionaries and that a significant percentage of the army and police are refusing to fire on them. It might be propaganda but the rebels claim that the violence is now coming from foreign mercenaries, rather than regular forces.

All the work that Gaddafi has done to normalise relations with the West is in tatters now. If he can, somehow, hold on, he'll be a pariah again.




Deviation -> RE: Egypt Protests (21/2/2011 7:20:45 PM)

China has a much less epic revolution....

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i6xM69oGgRnM3rQLQtV_qpq662TQ?docId=9dc2ee95692745a0afb29a14c18ace30




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (21/2/2011 10:52:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

This is incredible. Reports are that Benghazi is now in the control of the revolutionaries and that a significant percentage of the army and police are refusing to fire on them. It might be propaganda but the rebels claim that the violence is now coming from foreign mercenaries, rather than regular forces.

All the work that Gaddafi has done to normalise relations with the West is in tatters now. If he can, somehow, hold on, he'll be a pariah again.


From BBC news tonight, 'Meanwhile, Maltese officials say two Libyan fighter jets have landed there after the pilots asked for asylum because they were ordered to bomb civilians.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12531637







Rgirvan44 -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 4:28:04 PM)

Gaddafi is currently giving a "speech".




NadaPlissken -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 4:51:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Gaddafi is currently giving a "speech".


I've watched a portion of it, but I couldn't help but think of Michael Palin's Boring Prophet while I was.  About as rousing and coherent.




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 5:51:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NadaPlissken

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rgirvan44

Gaddafi is currently giving a "speech".


I've watched a portion of it, but I couldn't help but think of Michael Palin's Boring Prophet while I was.  About as rousing and coherent.



Yeah, reading extracts from it on BBC right now and this line,

"The BBC's Frank Gardner said it was an extraordinary speech even by Col Gaddafi's usual standards, full of theatrical defiance against almost everyone. He appears completely divorced from reality, says our correspondent....",

reminded me of that infamous scene in Downfall (yes the one that became an internet craze) when it becomes clear Hitler can't differentiate the brutal reality from his own fantasy.  The text I highlighted in bold in particular could sum up that scene.  It's just such an awful thought - you watch Downfall in horror at the fact these events actually happened and that somebody in charge of a country could be so deluded, and yet this is still the case in so many countries across the world today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12544624




Deviation -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 6:09:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sway

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

This is incredible. Reports are that Benghazi is now in the control of the revolutionaries and that a significant percentage of the army and police are refusing to fire on them. It might be propaganda but the rebels claim that the violence is now coming from foreign mercenaries, rather than regular forces.

All the work that Gaddafi has done to normalise relations with the West is in tatters now. If he can, somehow, hold on, he'll be a pariah again.


From BBC news tonight, 'Meanwhile, Maltese officials say two Libyan fighter jets have landed there after the pilots asked for asylum because they were ordered to bomb civilians.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12531637






Libyan refugees and asylum seekers are also protesting here in front of the Libyan Embassy. It's actually amazing.




Deviation -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 6:18:09 PM)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-pranks-humor-malta-air-force-.html

[sm=happy07.gif][sm=happy07.gif][sm=happy07.gif][sm=happy07.gif][sm=happy07.gif]




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 6:25:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deviation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sway

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessFranco

This is incredible. Reports are that Benghazi is now in the control of the revolutionaries and that a significant percentage of the army and police are refusing to fire on them. It might be propaganda but the rebels claim that the violence is now coming from foreign mercenaries, rather than regular forces.

All the work that Gaddafi has done to normalise relations with the West is in tatters now. If he can, somehow, hold on, he'll be a pariah again.


From BBC news tonight, 'Meanwhile, Maltese officials say two Libyan fighter jets have landed there after the pilots asked for asylum because they were ordered to bomb civilians.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12531637






Libyan refugees and asylum seekers are also protesting here in front of the Libyan Embassy. It's actually amazing.



Yeah I saw on the news last night that a Libyan scrambled up the front of the Libyan Embassy and replaced the current flag with an old national flag and did so without any interference from workers within the Embassy, prompting the news (can't recall which channel it was) to speculate about the loyalties of the workers inside. 

I'm watching the Middle East with a complete mix of excitement, hope, concern, and horror at the moment. 




Spaldron -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 6:41:01 PM)

Have you heard Gaddafi's speech? Holy shit!

Gaddafi depicted the protesters as misguided youths, who had been given drugs and money by a "small, sick group" to attack police and government buildings. He called on supporters to take to the streets immediately to reimpose control and to attack the protest leaders. "You men and women who love Gaddafi ... get out of your homes and fill the streets," he said. "Leave your homes and attack them in their lairs. They are taking your children and getting them drunk and sending them to death. For what? To destroy Libya, burn Libya." "The police cordons will be lifted, go out and fight them," he said, urging youth to form local committees across the country "for the defence of the revolution and the defence of Gadhafi," even asking them to wear green armbands. "Let us show them what the popular revolution is like," he said. "Go out from your homes starting now."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12544624




Ghidorah -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 7:00:55 PM)

Anyone finidng it wierd David Cameron is in the Middle East/North Africa trying to sell weapons while these governments are currently cracking down on the protests? I have seen these videos of protesters being gunned down and all they were doing was either marching or standing. It's unbelievable especially the reason he is there was meant to promote democracy........? Like here trying to limit his openents' seats in election reforms. So anyway trying to sell arms to these uncertain future states while taking away our forces equipment............





NadaPlissken -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 7:26:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ghidorah

Anyone finidng it wierd David Cameron is in the Middle East/North Africa trying to sell weapons while these governments are currently cracking down on the protests? I have seen these videos of protesters being gunned down and all they were doing was either marching or standing. It's unbelievable especially the reason he is there was meant to promote democracy........? Like here trying to limit his openents' seats in election reforms. So anyway trying to sell arms to these uncertain future states while taking away our forces equipment............



Yes...War!  Huh!  What is it good for!  Well...oil.  It's pretty good for that.




Harry Lime -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 7:44:01 PM)

The situation in Libya is terrifying and I do not see a quick, peaceful solution. I simply can not see Gaddafi going down without tearing the country apart first. This will not be Egypt or Tunisia. I'm dreading the brutality and carnage that may follow. The reports of massacres and supression trickling out now are bad enough. Unfortunately, I'm expecting much, much worse.

It is also worth mentioning this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12533803

Even if this is just international posturing, it is perfectly timed to potentially add another spark to a region in turmoil.




Ghidorah -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 7:49:29 PM)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/feb/22/david-cameron-britain-arms-trade

I am not joking, can Eypt or Libya keep him?




Harry Lime -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 8:00:38 PM)

I like this line...

quote:

"I simply don't understand how you can't understand how democracies have a right to defend themselves. I would have thought this argument is particularly powerful right here in Kuwait which, 20 years ago, was invaded by a thuggish bullying neighbour who disrespected your sovereignty, invaded your country and destroyed parts of your capital city."

Yes Dave. Now can you please remind me who supplied the arms to this thuggish, bullying, neighbour?




Spaldron -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 8:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Lime

I like this line...

quote:

"I simply don't understand how you can't understand how democracies have a right to defend themselves. I would have thought this argument is particularly powerful right here in Kuwait which, 20 years ago, was invaded by a thuggish bullying neighbour who disrespected your sovereignty, invaded your country and destroyed parts of your capital city."

Yes Dave. Now can you please remind me who supplied the arms to this thuggish, bullying, neighbour?


Exactly, fucking hypocritical Tory cunt. If it wasn't for these uprisings Cameron and Hague would be praising these despots, as it is they're jumping on the populist bandwagon.




Ghidorah -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 8:24:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry Lime

The situation in Libya is terrifying and I do not see a quick, peaceful solution. I simply can not see Gaddafi going down without tearing the country apart first. This will not be Egypt or Tunisia. I'm dreading the brutality and carnage that may follow. The reports of massacres and supression trickling out now are bad enough. Unfortunately, I'm expecting much, much worse.

It is also worth mentioning this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12533803

Even if this is just international posturing, it is perfectly timed to potentially add another spark to a region in turmoil.


I do not reccomend it but protesters are uploading videos of these terrible acts. However not everyone has access to camcorders etc and so not the full extent can be access untill the iron curtan fall. What is coming out is a small example and it is terrible. Some of it is in Libya but others are not. Like when soldiers with machine guns fired on a march. It was on a short burst but it killed at least five people straight away.




ilovebeerme -> RE: Egypt Protests (22/2/2011 10:01:29 PM)

I was considering going to Libya with work three years ago but decided on Oz instead. One of life's better decisions perhaps! The company I work for has had to evacuate all staff from the country with no idea of when they'll return. Scary stuff.




tarantinofan -> RE: Egypt Protests (23/2/2011 9:40:20 PM)

From the NY Times,

"The newspaper added that, according to a Maltese military source, "the jets, recently refurbished under an agreement signed by Qaddafi and Nikolas Sarkozy, broke out of formation when their squadron was ordered to attack Libyan civilians."




Deviation -> RE: Egypt Protests (23/2/2011 9:44:17 PM)

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011223164125540203.html

Gadaffi's daughter is refused landing here in Malta.




Deviation -> RE: Egypt Protests (24/2/2011 3:13:05 PM)

WHAT NO JEWS?

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20110224/local/gaddafi-accuses-bin-laden-the-us-of-libya-plot




tarantinofan -> RE: Egypt Protests (25/2/2011 3:37:32 PM)

[image]http://www.sftuk.org/wp-content/gallery/post-udpates/cameron.jpg[/image]

quote:

"People working for this regime... should remember that international justice has a long reach and a long memory."


























































[image]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SsEJYY3HW8E/TEDlK0zkQ2I/AAAAAAAACVY/RdAas4nxlDg/s1600/blair+gaddafi+2.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.youngfabians.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/David-Cameron-001.jpg[/image]




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (17/3/2011 4:22:26 PM)

Further update on Libya;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12775824

How utterly disheartening and frustrating to see this.   It makes me even more angry in light of the events in Japan - thousands of people dead over there due to a natural disaster, thousands more concerned about the potential nuclear disaster on their hands, and all just trying desperately to survive.  And here we have one man and his military in the Middle East killing his own country's people simply because he's a megalomanical despot.

What's most frustrating is I can sit here and a few clicks of the mouse later I've donated a small sum of money that I hope will go some way toward aid in Japan, and yet all I can do about Libya is watch in utter despair.

I knew Gaddafi would not go so easily, the biggest problem is that he still has the support of the military.  I had, probably naive, hope when hearing about the fighter pilots landing in Malta, but now I can't see this ending well at all.




Sway -> RE: Egypt Protests (18/3/2011 9:46:41 PM)

Yet another update as the situation escalates - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12791910

Another blow to the 'Arab Spring' as the recent months have been dubbed.    It had been so exciting to see events organically unfold in Tunisia and Egypt, without any intereference from the West.  




Spaldron -> RE: Egypt Protests (19/3/2011 6:12:56 PM)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794468

Looks like one of Gaddafi's jets being shot down although they're not 100% sure. Could be a French jet but I doubt it.




DancingClown -> RE: Egypt Protests (19/3/2011 6:20:51 PM)

Hmm...that article's about 11 hours out of date.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971





Spaldron -> RE: Egypt Protests (19/3/2011 6:27:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DancingClown

Hmm...that article's about 11 hours out of date.



Pedant

Edit. Update, it now looks like it was a rebel plane that was shot down by accident according to channel 4 news. I had no idea the rebels had their own jets, the media have been constantly portraying them as ordinary citizens armed with only a few AK-47's etc.




Fluke Skywalker -> RE: Egypt Protests (20/3/2011 11:27:04 AM)

Passing resolutions to bomb arab countries is so easy ain't it - they can't even pass a resolution condemning Israel's illegal settlements, the hypocrisy is staggering. I wonder if we're going to help the people of Bahrain to change their leadership or how about Saudi Arabia? Of course not - they are our dictators, when they are in our pockets their human rights abuses are to be ignored.

Once again oil and gas are significant reasons behind this latest escapade - you can move through Africa and name any number of conflicts we could have got involved with to save countless lives but we didn't, because those darkies have no resources of interest to us...




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